The Middle Ground

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  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    wjh- They have changed the finish of leg 20 over the last week so first time ever you dont run into cardiff castle, but now finish on the field behind. Apparently its due to increasing costs. Slightly disappointing.

    What stretches are you doing for lower leg and foot? Have you looked at those starssburg socks?

    I find when i do tempo runs or faster intervals, the first one or two are hard as im clearly not entirely warmed up.

    Mr V- I was told that the fetch one was potentially the most accurate certainly for a first time marathoner. I think theres a lot to be said for the accumulated adaptions of multiple marathon campaigns and the experience of the distance.

    Ive still not got above 40 since the marathon. I did 37 last week and will do 1 or 2 more this week. Im not too concerned though as with the introduction of a 'semi quality session' on top of 2 quality and  a long run its probably quite enough for now. 

  • Mr VMr V ✭✭✭

    DT - I had a definite drop in mileage when I was being coached by them. I think its necessary with the extra quality. I found myself fairly wiped after some of the long threshold sessions and was glad of an easy day, the following day. I think at the time when I stopped I was on the verge of over training so keep an eye on how you adapt to the extra workload and don't be afraid to ask for an easy week if/when you feel you need it.

    I'm back home in North Yorkshire for a long weekend so took advantage of the local hilly 10k route for a MP session. Couple of miles warm up and then the 10k in just under 40. Given the route that's probably worth 10 secs a mileish so in reality a good bit harder than MP, but felt pretty comfortable which was good.

  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Yep I am finding the extra quality session quite hard as with a long run as well it means I am doing back to back hard days sat and Sunday. 

    Sounds like a decent session there. That's the other factor that's taking it out of me, the sudden emphasis on doing quality sessions on undulating terrain. 

    4 x 8 min today on hilly route. Found it quite tough. Though I'm suffering this week as circumstances meant that my rest day for week was Monday. 

  • Checking in briefly from Keswick - 18 degrees here and not a single cloud. This could be a race of attrition!
  • Nice tempo running Mr V and DT.

    Hope the race was fun Duck.

    5 rest days here - 2 days in the lakes with Mrs CB then 2 nights camping in Dovedale with Mrs CB and Little Miss CB. Looking forward to some speed tomorrow morning.

  • Not much posting here, guess everyone is enjoying the sunshine. 

    Thanks Andrew and sounds like you have your sensible head on re: the comeback.

    DT, for training purposes I think the tougher MP conversions such as McMillan and Jack Daniels are more useful. It what I will use when outside of Marathon training. In training 7-10m at McMillan MP is a great session IMO.
    Hope things went well with the Welsh Castles relay.

    WJH - are you doing the whole golfball treatment thing with the Plantar?
    Great sounding session that BTW, I enjoy those mixed pace sessions and it’s not unusual for the 2nd slice of bread in a sandwich session like that to feel more comfortable.

    Nicely done on the tempo run Mr V!
    I will do that race one day. My coach is organising the Dalby Dash this year. That’s near your folks place I believe. I’ll be doing it I think.

    If you like Dr Dan 
    BTW how on earth did you run a fast parkrun 6 days after a Marathon?!!

    I went for my first run back on Friday after work and it was hideous, legs grumbled in whole new ways. I didn't run yesterday, but ran tonight and it was much better. A bit sluggish but far less complaining from the legs. I will take it easy this week but aim to get out for at least 5 runs and hopefully the legs will be up for a long run by the weekend.

  • Mr VMr V ✭✭✭

    Quiet indeed on here. I'm finding it hard work training in the heat!

    DT - The threshold sessions were always the ones I found hardest. Just wait until you get to 3x15! Mentally tough more than anything.

    TR - I suspect the first post mara run is always the worst! Hopefully your legs continue to pick up this week. Have you given any thought to the next race to enter? Yeah the Kirkby 10k is a good event and well worth doing one year.

    12 and a half miles in the heat and sunshine yesterday which was very pleasant, though I felt pretty wiped afterwards. Did a hill session today. Just over 20 mins of continuous hills with the down bits at a good clip to keep the heart rate up. Again very humid and felt knackered afterwards but a decent session nonetheless.

  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    TR- Welsh castles is next sunday. Yes, I would agree that as a training tool the mcmillam mp is definately the one to use.

    It took me a few weeks aftert the marathon to start running properly again, so i am equally baffled by Dr Dans parkrun performance.

    Mr V-  My schedule moves on to 3 x 10 min next week. I assume that the threshold runs dont expand beyond 3 x 15 min?

    CB- Sounds like a decent break.

    Duck, i see from FB you had a decent run in Keswick.

    12 ish miles for me yesterday. A bit of temperature certainly does make it much harder work. No idea how I managed to maintain training last July!

     

  • Evening all - well I am stiff, sore and can hardly walk. Please tell me this is not what marathons are like post-event because I doubt I will be doing one any time soon if this is the case! 

    (and am now just realising how long it has been since I last posted...!)

    cb, how are the 200s coming along?

    TR, thorough report and it sounds like you have taken an awful lot from Edinburgh. FWIW I have a friend who ran 33:24 at Baker Hughes the week before and ran 2:54 at Edinburgh with a 54 minute last 10k! 

    How do you think you will be more realistic in your fitness assessment next time? pMP runs to heart rate? And I certainly agree on the more miles aspect, the sub-2:45 guys often say the first marathon is about 10 minutes slower than what you could 'ideally' do IIRC. 

    I have heard from a lot of people that the wind was very tough - certainly a race-wrecker for a lot of people. 

    WJH - PF appears (from my experience) to be strange in that there is no one way to solve it. CS got over it by wearing minimal shoes for everyday use (F-Lites) however I have also spoken to people who needed insoles and supportive shoes. 

    Shall race report below - I think I have found my second calling.

  • (warning - this is long)

    The preamble

    This really was a spontaneous, spur of the moment race entry - CS mentioned the event to me about 3 weeks prior, so in my mindset at the time I figured "well, why the hell not?". I had the weekend off anyway.

    Just a small problem - I had never run on trails before and I didn't own a pair of trail shoes.

    Point 2 was sorted easily enough. Got myself a pair of Salomon Fellraisers and point 1 was covered with a few 30-40 minute trail runs around the local woods 2 weeks and 1 week prior to the event. Hardly ideal prep for an event that had "King of the Mountains" and "Demon Descent" sections to it. I could hardly be going in to the event with any less experience.

    And then 2 days prior I decided to run a 10000m race. In the end it turned out to be a solo time trial (I finished 2nd in 36:40, with HR never really rising above my HM heart rate) so didn't empty the tank too much.

    Saturday saw the drive down marred by being stuck in roadworks in Glasgow for 2 hours so a 4.5 hour journey turned into a 7 hour journey. We got there with my hamstrings feeling about as tight as a harpsichord and my IT bands not feeling much better. However the views were fantastic.

  • The day itself

    Soon as I got up I thought "it's a bit hot in here". Checking out the window it was clear blue skies and not a cloud to be seen. Temperature was EIGHTEEN DEGREES - the sort of weather that constitutes national emergency in Scotland. Thankfully we had remembered suncream otherwise I imagine we would have crumbled into ash at the side of the race.

    15 minute walk to the start and I went off for a mile or so jog to get warmed up. Muscles were still feeling very tight and HR was worryingly high as well. With 10 minutes to the start I got into the first pen.

    I had my race plan lined out well in advance - I was treating this as an XC race, in that I was expecting it to be much harder on my legs than lungs. So plan was to run to HR and keep it at about 160 for the first lap (in Paris I averaged 169), then push it up to about 165 for a bit of lap 2 then whatever I had left for the remainder.

    We're off. Fast start but I hold back well and after the first loop of the field we started in everything is ok and my high HR in the warmup does not seem to be an issue right now. The first 4k are reasonably flat along a walking path and I got into a rhythm easily. Stuck behind two guys from a fell club for a little bit before they started to drop back - already we were very strung out with the next guy up the road by about 20 seconds.

    By about 20 mins in I have just about caught him and this is all still feeling very easy. We hit the first big climb of the day - my god this is steep! I basically reduced pace to a shuffle and keep an eye on my HR to make sure it's not rising too much. I'm hitting 165 already despite almost walking.

    So I walked. The hill was about 600m in length and I was passed by a few people still running - but basically gasping for breath already. I was still feeling fine and actually feeling better than when I had started. My walking pace at this point was probably not much slower than when I was running.

    Top of the first hill and I was back into running - next segment was rolling and I was able to catch up to those who had passed me on the hill. The first descent of the day loomed, I had about 4 or 5 reasonably close behind but could no see anyone in front.

    In the descent I just leg my legs go and went with it. I was flying! Tore down the hill (about a half mile) and had left those behind me way behind. Bottom of the hill we passed through a small ford and then we were into the big climb of the day. Right at the start of this until the crest of the hill was the King of the Mountains.

    No option but to walk a good portion of this - even keeping HR down walking was a challenge. The sun was really beating down and I was roasting hot. A quick glance behind showed me 1 guy about 50m back (also walking but running a bit too). When we got into a more open section (proper moorland, with sheep and everything) I could see a few dots in the distance of those in front. By the point the guy behind had caught me up, but nearing the top of the slope so I started running again and kept up without too many problems).

    Right at the top of the hill and we switched to the Demon Descent. I was still feeling in good shape here so once again let the legs go and held on. Now my legs speed and stride length aren't too bad so I was cautiously hopeful I might do reasonable well descending.

    Within about 30 seconds the guy behind was gone and I was doing about 5:30/m. The two in front were now being caught at a stupidly fast pace and I was basically just letting gravity take me. Before we reached the true bottom there was another small hill to navigate and I caught them here - I must have taken about 40 seconds out of them in about 2k.

  • With that hill out of the way we were into the last section before the beginning of lap 2. I had no idea what place I was in but I knew I had done a seriously good descent and was already looking forward to seeing the stats afterwards (we were chip timed and there were mats).

    So into lap 2. Pushed my HR up to around 165 now but was still feeling like the breathing was very in control and legs still had enough left for another round. Caught someone up soon into lap 2 and pretty much breezed past him. I could see the next guy about 150m up the road along with a few of the elite ladies (who had started before us) cooling down. So I did what any man would do and tried to catch up.

    Near the bottom of climb #1 I caught the next guy up and again passed him pretty easily. Walked much of the hill once again but it was more of a strong powerwalk this time. Legs feeling a bit tired now and breathing feeling like it would do in a half. Just after the top of the climb I flew past another runner.

    Strong descent again and into the second climb, seeing someone else about 100m in front. Walking once again but really trying to push the pace now and not worrying so much about HR. About halfway up the hill the elite men in the 11k race (it was a home counties meet so a LOT of good hill runners were there) started to come past me at a stupid pace. Tried to run again to hang on but my legs were screaming at this point so had to resort to walking again.

    Top of the climb and now just the final descent to go. The elite men were still coming past but not as quickly now. Got to the beginning of the downhill and just as another 11k-er came past I opened the taps.

    If the first lap was fast this was beyond fast. We were FLYING. I easily recorded sub 5:20/m at this point and the elite men were still coming past! I was hanging onto them as much as I could however you can tell a good descender when you see one - they could pick out the racing lines i could only dream of.

    Final small hill. There's a slow-moving runner in front (is he a 22k guy?). I pass him with about 100m to go. Final surge across the field to the line and I'm finished in 1'43:44.

    14 miles all told so a bit further than 22k - 7:23/m average which is much quicker than what I was expecting. Managed a jog back to the car to quickly change and got back for CS finishing too.

  • The results

    I finished 8th. EIGHTH. In my first ever trail race. My lap splits were 53:50 & 49:54. My second lap was the 4th fastest in the 22k race.

    King of the Mountains times were 10:24 & 10:30 (23rd & 13th) - my average was 10:27 which placed me 16th.

    Demon Descent times were 12:08 & 11:57 (6th & 3rd) - my average was 12:03 which placed me 3rd!

    So in conclusion:

    I ain't a bad trail runner.

    I need to work on my hills.

    My descents aren't too shabby.

  • Great report Duck. A well executed race with a sensible strategy.

    I hope everone's enjoying the humidity.

    I didn't do 200s this week Duck, due to 5 days off and a race on Thursday I decided that my quality session would be 5x2:30 off 2:30 rest. Paces were 1 sec/mile up on a couple of weeks ago so I don't seem to have lost anything for the break. 6 easy sticky miles this morning and an easy club run tonight (provided meeting finishes on time and traffic isn't too bad!)

  • Mr VMr V ✭✭✭

    DT - I never got beyond 3x15 though I believe they try and build you up to 3x20. Of course you can't really run that length of session at true threshold pace.

    Chubby - I'm not enjoying it all! Just got back from an easy 10k and was really struggling. Was aiming for 10 miles but just couldn't face it! Impressed at your double day. What mileage are you doing at the minute?

    Duck - Sounds like an interesting experience and an impressive result. You just need to add marathons and fell races and you've got the complete set!

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    Duck cracking race!

    Chubby - good to nsee things are still ticking over very nicely!

    Thirsk Runner wrote (see)
    BTW how on earth did you run a fast parkrun 6 days after a Marathon?!!

    DT19 wrote (see)
    It took me a few weeks aftert the marathon to start running properly again, so i am equally baffled by Dr Dans parkrun performance.

     

    I think it's down to running a crap marathon ... 20M of the marathon was at 8/m and the rest at 9+/m ... a month earlier I'd run 20M with 15M at 7:33/m in a 56M week. I hadn't planned to race that parkrun but felt great in warm up. In hindsight it was stupid as my calf suffered for a few weeks afterwards. If I'd left it another week, I think I'd have been able to keep the momentum of the marathon training going.

    Meanwhile ... 7 weeks of sporadic bits of running/cycling (and a very rare footy match) are over. I'm now back in the game image. 21 weeks until Dublin image.

  • Mr V - I'm aiming for 40+ a week. The last 2 weeks have suffered a bit, but this week only because of how I measure a week (Sat-Fri) - if I did Mon - Sunday I'd only have one blip! Both runs yesterday were easy. I would normally do a shorter run and a core session Tuesday morning, but shuffled things round a bit this week due to Dunham Massey 5k tomorrow.

    21 weeks will fly by Dr Danimage

    4 miles and 30mins core this morning.

  • Mr VMr V ✭✭✭

    Dan – Will you be following a specific schedule this time around?

    Chubby – Should get some decent results with that mileage. Is a sub 20 parkrun your next goal?

    On  a random note don’t you hate it when you miss a race you know is going to be fast and then all your rivals smash out really quick times! Lots of people I know got really good times at the Middlesbrough 5K on Sunday. The guy I end up running virtually every race side by side ran a big PB and of course I feel like I could have beaten or matched him!

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    That's frustrating Mr.V!

    I'm not ruling out P&D as it did get me pretty fit ... however I think my main weakness is converting 5K/10K times into marathon, so I think a longer subLT / LT period would be better for me than the 600-1000m intervals. Basically, I will spend few weeks getting up to reasonable mileage and then start adding in Hadd sub-LT sessions. I'll make sure I include strides and I will also do some full LT sessions too.

  • +1 for the frustation Mr V. Sub 20 5k is my aim at the moment. A sub 20 parkrun will be some way off as the only one I can get to is Delamere and it's not a fast course! When I can do Delamere sub 20 then I reckon I'll be ready for a sub 40 10k.

  • AndrewDAndrewD ✭✭✭

    Duck - fantastic race and great report! Looks like you can turn your hand to pretty much any kind of race then!

    Does anyone have any experience/good exercises for injury to the peroneus longus (the muscle which runs down the outside of the lower leg and attaches to the top of the fibula)? I've narrowed down the point of my pain to the top of that muscle just below where it attaches to the fibula. It still occasionally gives me a bit of a tweak (usually first thing in the morning) and I think it may be one of the sources of the pain I had been suffering. I can find one stretch online, but this seems to work the bottom of the muscle down by the ankle more than the top of it?!

    Also, been analysing my running style in the mirror at the gym whilst on the treadmill - when I am getting tired, or just not fully focussing on form, I have noticed that my right foot kicks outwards at the end of each stride (ie when it is fully behind me and about to swing forwards again) and this seems to twist the knee and the whole leg as a result. Also when I walk I have noticed my whole right knee seems to twist outwards once my body gets in front of the leg in each stride. It is only on my right leg and that is the leg which has been having troubles. So I'm trying to fix that but it requires a lot of concentration when running - anyone have experience of how it will take for my muscle memory to kick in and mean I don't have to think about the new running form? Has anyone else had to consciously change their running style?

    On the plus side, up to 25 mins of running now (with some short walk breaks in the middle) so onwards and upwards with that ......

  • Duck – yes Marathons are hideous, I had trouble with steps for a couple of days after and I am still nowhere near being able to train properly.

    Well done on what sounds like a very well executed race btw and a great report.

    As for your question regarding identifying MP at my next Marathon. I think two things will help. Firstly not being injured 12 weeks out, hitting the Marathon training plan already in good shape and then doing the 12 week plan will mean I should have much better endurance and therefore more confidence in holding a pace for longer.
    Also, due to the lack of time available in build-up this time I didn’t race a half marathon, next time I will look for a half 4-6 weeks out from the Marathon. This should give me a better idea of how things are progressing and a better indication of MP.
    Short of that, start the Marathon 10 seconds per mile slower than what seems like a sensible target image

    Dr.Dan wrote (see)

    Thirsk Runner wrote (see)
    BTW how on earth did you run a fast parkrun 6 days after a Marathon?!!

    DT19 wrote (see)
    It took me a few weeks aftert the marathon to start running properly again, so i am equally baffled by Dr Dans parkrun performance.

     

    I think it's down to running a crap marathon ... 20M of the marathon was at 8/m and the rest at 9+/m ... a month earlier I'd run 20M with 15M at 7:33/m in a 56M week.

     

    I have heard a few people say that the better the Marathon went, the better the recovery. So that point of view counters what you are saying. I am struggling at the moment (10 days out) and had a blow up at the Marathon so can understand what that point of view. But only having run one Marathon I can't compare it to anything.
    What you are saying does seem more logical though, in number terms, you ran a longer yet steady effort compared to training runs, so you should recover well from that. I guess there are so many different factors to take into account there isnt going to be a hard and fast rule. I think it also depends on how you suffer during the Marathon, was it an energy thing, muscular thing. How fresh were you going into the Marathon....

    That is a bit annoying Mr V. Quite a few of my friends ran the same race and ran fast times. Not to worry there will be loads of other opportunities!

    Andrew - no experience on the injury. As for running form, drills and strides will help tidy it up.

    I ran 7 miles on Sunday and felt a little sluggish, 5 miles Monday and felt knackered and 7 miles last night with a friend and also felt knackered. All runs have been around 8 min mile pace and I am just not recovering between runs, my quads are feeling particularly tired. So I am taking a couple more days off in the hope I can get out feeling a bit fresher at the weekend. Tough business this Marathon malarkey.

     

  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Duck- Nice race and report. When you say you would have placed 18th in the elite race.....how many were in it and how to you get into it?

    Mr v, thats annoying. To me it would just usually mean I would be behind those i normally run with.

    I would have thought 3 x 15 min at threshold would be about the max i would fancy! Though in p and d the LT run peaks at 7 straight miles. Looking at my schedule i have some kenyan hills in there next week.

    CB- How come you dont use the standard monday-sunday running week?

    Andrew- I had some physio this am, particularly as i have been experiencing tightness in the muscles of the outside lower left leg. After some joint manipulation, dry needling and pretty heavy massage we got onto stretches. He said it was very difficult to stretch that area. The best he could offer was  to take the standard calf stretch position with hands flat against a wall but then bring your back leg across your body so its just to the outside of the front leg then carefully go over on the outside of the back foot as if you were someway to spraining your ankle and hold it. You should feel it stretching down.

    TR- have you had a decent sports massage post marathon? I had one a few days after and it helped.

    About 8.5 miles last night with 4 x 8 min at threshold. Aiming for 6.40 and sub 170 hr. Came in 6.40, 6.46, 6.40 and 6.40. All but the last were below 170 bpm. Fairly intense hour long spin class then this morning. Wanted to get it in as i knew I would feel a bit beaten a few hours after physio

     

  • Mr VMr V ✭✭✭

    DT – Yeah those 3x15s are tough!! Especially as you only get 1 minute recovery! I had some very wobbly legged cool down jogs after a few of those. I’m going to start doing them again soon as they certainly work though. Good session there. I reckon you’ll be onto the 4x10 soon.

    Well yeah that may well have happened to me if I’d run! It’s funny what makes a race quick or slow. Often certain races seem to produce faster or slower times than you would expect just from the nature of the course/conditions etc. Two guys who finished within a couple of seconds of me at my last 10K (37.20) both ran sub 17.15 at Middlesbrough. That’s a pretty big difference in equivalent times. What do people reckon are the most important factors in race times excluding the obvious of course and conditions? I’m thinking of something like the Abbey Dash that always seems to attract big PBs. Obviously it’s a fairly quick course but I’ve never felt it was quicker than any other flattish course. Is it simply the quality of the field, meaning you are always surrounded by people to drag you along? Is it reputation, i.e. people expect to run well and therefore do so (maybe go to the well more than in other races?) Any other things people can think of?

    TR – Yes indeed. I’m looking at the Sunderland 5k in particular for a fast time. Not sure if you’ve run it before but its considered the fastest course in the region and well worth doing if you can get up there for a Wednesday evening. Sounds like the marathon recovery is heavy going. Hopefully your legs pick up soon.

  • DT - probably because when I plan my week's runs I start with Saturday, as Monday's session will depend to some extent on Sunday's. Saturday will always be parkrun if I can make it, though it will be a gentle one if I've raced on Friday or am racing on Sunday, but to me it makes to start there!

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭
    Thirsk Runner wrote (see)
    All runs have been around 8 min mile pace and I am just not recovering between runs, my quads are feeling particularly tired. So I am taking a couple more days off in the hope I can get out feeling a bit fresher at the weekend. Tough business this Marathon malarkey.

     

    Referred to as post-marathon  "Shit Phase" on the Hadd thread...

    I'm finding things a grind this week too - just need to sit it out and get some miles in the legs.

  • I think we discussed the Sunderland 5k a couple of years ago Mr V. It’s not really on for me, as it would take me at least an hour and a half to get there from where I work (maybe more in rush hour) and that wouldn’t leave me much time to pick up my number, change, go to the loo, and get in a decent warm up. Had it been a weekend race I would consider it with the family connections in the area etc….is it the same as the parkrun course?
    In terms of fast 5k’s I have the Summer Coast Road 5k in New Marske and the Millennium Bridge 5k in York on my radar + a couple of track 5,000m races. So plenty opportunity for me to get a quick time.

    Dr.Dan wrote (see)
     

    Referred to as post-marathon  "Shit Phase" on the Hadd thread...

    I'm finding things a grind this week too - just need to sit it out and get some miles in the legs.



    I’m hearing that Dr Dan, I think there is something in the ‘just hang in there’ comment, for the most part that works in my experience as long as the training is kept fairly easy. If these two rest days don’t work I will go for that approach. Guess I will find out tomorrow.

    Looking at races for this summer, I have the Leeds 10k as a potential race, it’s on the Abbey Dash course AFAIK are you doing that one?


    DT, good shout with regards to massage, I might look into it if things don’t improve.
    I am liking these LT sessions you are doing, I will be getting stuck into a few myself once I am up to training properly. Are you seeing much improvements from them? Early day’s I know.

  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Mr v, re your comment about fast courses I suspect one thing might be that people build to certain races that are known as pb courses so peak at that time. I have done Telford 10k last two years. It attracts a very high quality field (usually a good 5-10 sub 30). All its billing is about how fast and flat it is. However, it is pretty flat but its certainly not pan flat, yet its pretty well regarded as the event to turn up for to get an end of year SB. I suspect people train to peak for it, plus at every minute interval from 30-40 you are in a group racing. 

    Tr, one of their objectives with the sessions is to 'take mer to the well' a bit in training to overcome my self diagnosed mental weakness that has crept in in races. I am on week three this week and my Hr reading versus pace seems to have improved since weeks 1 and 2. I won't pay much attention until the first 6-8 weeks is done. 

    40 min at Mara pace later so about 5-6 miles. 

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    TR - Leeds 10K is £27.20, whereas Harrogate 10K on £13 on the same day.image

  • A good point well made, see you in Harrogate!
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