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The Middle Ground
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Dunham Massey 5k (the uphill one!). I didn't have my Garmin as the strap connection broke on mine and I'm waiting for a replacement, so had Mrs CB's girly pink Forerunner 10 which doewsn't do average pace, or show pace and distance on the same screen (pace shares a screen with calories - who cares?!). I had it on the distance / time screen, but to be honest the distance was so far out (over 2%) I quickly concluded it was better to use the time and the km markers.
Crazy start - coming to the conclusion that chip timing makes for a more civilised start! Km splits were roughly 4:08, 4:04, 4:08, 4:04, 4:19 giving a 20:47 finish. I think I would have pushed harder in the last km if I had an idea of my pace dropping, but generally happy with that and I'm looking forward to the downhill version in 2 weeks!
Too right DT, the Leeds 10k is worse value per mile than the GNR and that’s saying something!
Sounds like a good plan RE: 'take me to the well'. As for the HR / Pace ratio improvements, that’s good feedback as you go but you are right not to pay much attention before 6 week.
Not sure how true it is, but I have heard it said that it takes about two weeks for the benefits of a session to filter through as fitness gains. No idea how someone would qualify that statement but intuitively it seems about right to me.
Nice effort CB, how much do you think the uphill is worth? Does it suggest sub 20 is imminent?
As for running without a gadget, for shorter races (5k - 10k) I now think it’s better to just use my garmin as a stopwatch during the race with splits for info after the race. Garmins come in for helping to control the pace early on in longer races though. I have been practicing running to feel for a while and have to say I am enjoying the approach.
Yesterday was the second of my planned two day break and randomly in the afternoon I got a pain in my heel and up the side of my foot. It’s the side where I had the Achilles issues last year and is quite similar in that there is some tightness that I have eased with stretching but it is also sore to the touch like a bruise would be. Painful to walk on last night but it seems to be easing now, all very random for it to appear a day and a half into a non-running period with no warning. Can’t think of anything that would have triggered it as I was sat at my desk most of the day, anyone had anything similar?
Not worth 47 seconds! It's a 2.5 lap course and the .5 is on a gentle gradient. In 2 weeks the course is run in reverse so the .5 is gently down. Hopefully I'll get sub 20 by mid July but I've got 3 school residentials between now and the end of term so training could be a little bit disrupted.
No idea on the heel pain!
I realise that CB, hence my use of the word 'imminent', this Summer can be classed as imminent
Anyway, see what your time is in two weeks and split the difference, that will tell you where you are at.
Chubby - Good effort and it will be interesting to see what you manage on the faster course.
TR - Not sure on the foot, though I've had heel pain before and its always dissaperared of its own accord fairly quickly. Re the Sunderland course I think its pretty much the same as the parkrun course but you go down the hill rather than up it, hence it being quick.
I decided to have a crack at a fast parkrun this morning but it was too hot and windy and I felt pretty flat. Hit 2 miles at 17.45 pace so decided it wasn't worth pushing and just jogged the last mile. Saving my legs now for a race on Monday evening.
Had a really good afternoon today doing the sports massage at Gateshead Stadium for a British Athletics League meet. There were some seriously good athletes there. One of the 800 metre guys I was working on had a PB of 1.50. The middle distance guys were easy but some of the sprinters, shot putters, discuss throwers etc are seriously big so its pretty hard work!
How is that qualification coming along Mr v? The frustrating thing about that for me would be knowing exactly how to deliver one, but still having to pay to have one!
What race is tonight?
Welsh castles for me yesterday, will post report below now-
The Welsh Castles relay- Leg 20
This is an annual club event organised by Les Croupiers running club and has been going sometime, my club has been running it since 94. The spread of clubs taking part was quite surprising in that I would say there were more English clubs than welsh in there.
The basic principle is that there are 20 legs starting out at Caernarfon castle in the north on Saturday am and finishing in Cardiff on Sunday pm with 10 legs each day, the basic premise being that each leg is run from and to a castle or as close as. Six of the legs are designated mountain stages and there is a separate competition running simultaneously for king of the mountains.
This event attracts the best runners from my club so I was quite surprised to make the original team draft, I anticipated being on the reserve list. I had the final leg from Caerphilly to Cardiff castle which in most clubs is usually reserved for the fastest runners as it is the glory leg. It was listed as 10.7 miles but then due to a health and safety requirement from Cardiff castle, the race was reduced last week to 10.4 miles, finishing just outside the castle.
Having looked at the route in advance I could see that the first 800m to mile involved some climbing out of Caerphilly, after which you would head onto the Taff trail for a few miles and this was flat to downhill.
My plan was to start off sensibly and gradually increase the pace. Having reviewed the pattern of recent blow ups it was apparent that in all of them my first mile was a good 20 seconds faster than planned pace.
I had in my head a 6.50 first mile. As things got going the climbing in the first mile was more than I anticipated. It came in at 6.49 however I was working harder than I had intended. Once the climbing was done things become flat and I settled into a steady pace with mile 2 at 6.41. Then came the decline for a mile or two with 3 and 4 coming in at 6.28 and 6.35. My regret here is that I kept reigning myself in, scared of a blow up in the middle stages. From about miles 4-5 we emerged from the trail and things become a bit more undulating as we ran through some villages somewhere between Pontypridd and Cardiff and then back on the trail for a bit and then through Bute park to the finish with mile splits of 6.49, 6.45, 6.47, 6.50, 6.49 and 6.47. I forgot to stop my watch at the end so don’t have a split for the final bit.
At about 6.5 miles I got a slight stitch and the course was mildly undulating and I just assumed that was it and my pace would die off. I kept doing the sums of what my time would be if I dropped to 7.30 mm etc. I then woke myself up a bit and had a friendly discussion with myself to man up which seemed to have worked, albeit with a slight drop in pace. I was encouraged by the fact that in the second half I was actually picking people off, though with only 65 in the race of varying ability, it was very much a solo run for the last few miles. There was a guy about 400m ahead of me that I was slowly gaining it and had it been a half I think I would have had him.
Running into the finish I was crowd bullied into an unnecessary sprint. The last 200-300m was a wall of noise. I thought I was clear of anyone behind me when suddenly the crown started going mad as they could see someone closing me down. All I could see were people screaming at me ‘he’s catching you’ and various other suggestions that I was in a race for the line. So, against my better judgment I went for it. The guy took me with about 10m to go at which point my stomach decided I was taking the piss. I just made the line and started heaving and gagging, eventually throwing up. About 2 minutes after I had finished, the storm that had been picking away in the final few miles finally erupted and it absolutely lashed down for about 20 minutes which couldn’t have made funning too pleasant for the remaining runners.
Final time was 1.09.44 for 10.4 miles (went through 10m at 1.07.10) finishing 25/65 which in a pure club event I am happy with. More so I am happy to have finally running a race without giving up 75% of the way through. An average pace of 6.43 is still some 4 seconds a mile off hm pb pace but its progress and encouraging, particularly with a clear summer of training and some 14 weeks before my next half. Be interested to see what Runbritain make of it when the official results are done in a week or so.
The club finished in 7th overall of 65 teams which is certainly the highest position this century and possibly ever.
Not much activity on here at the moment!
DT- Looks like a pretty good effort there. Especially if it was largely a solo time trial and an undulating course. I’d guess you’d be hopeful of at least maintaining that pace over a full half? Tonight is the Blaydon race. 5.7 or 5.9 miles depending upon which bit of info you read! Always a good one as there are 4000 runners and a very strong field at the front. Yeah course is coming along nicely. Bulk of the teaching is done and I’m just finishing off the assessments and an exam to go as well. Apart from that it’s just logging the hours I need which could still take a while.
Solid run there DT! Looks like a good summer ahead.
Hope the heel is okay TR ... when I had heel pain it turned out to be a forewarning of PT, which unfortunately I ignored. It felt like a bruised foot that came on after a hard run (rather than after a few days off).
Good news on the course Mr V. Good luck with the exam ... and the Blaydon race!
I got in 37 miles last week as the first week in a home-made 21 week schedule to take me up to Dublin marathon (have not actually entered yet - waiting to hear back from relations about staying). I've based the mileage, rest days, LT, MLRs, LRs and LR+MP sessions on P&D 18/55 but have ditched the VO2max stuff in favour of 18 subLT sessions.
Evening all - after a few days of seriously sore legs I seem to have recovered well.
TR - it does sound very difficult to know what MP really is even with an ideal build up! Could HR be an option or is that not something you like to use?
DT... there were 17 so I would have been last but not by much! And that's based off lap 2 and not accounting for being quicker for having only run 1 lap.
Nice 4*8 threshold session, 32 mins @ threshold is a fair hefty amount of volume! What recoveries did you use?
Nice report from the weekend as well. I get the impression you are beginning to get an idea of how you should be feeling at various points in a race?
Nice 10M split and a great result for the team.
Mr V, sounds like the massage development is going well! The elite 800m runners really are odd, used to work with a 1:49 guy and there was nothing to him.... amazing these guys are basically sprinters at that pace.
So after a really easy week (less then 20M) I'm basically looking to Amsterdam in October now... 18 weeks to go and with plenty of race opportunities I've essentially sat here with my bank card this evening.
10/06 (i.e. tomorrow): Metro Beach 10k
07/08: AAAC Club Champs (1500m)
09/08: Haddington Half Marathon
12/08: Ceres 8M
17/08: Forfar 10k (my bogey course)
28/08: AAAC Club Champs (800m)
06/09: Scottish HM Champs
14/09: Stirling 10k (basically Scotland's Abbey Dash)
28/09: Paris-Versailles
19/09: Amsterdam HM
Certainly not going to be racing all of those all out (I would expect Haddington to be a long tempo for example), however I should hopefully get some good results out of that lot.
...so yeah, about that track season.
Dr Dan, that sounds like a sensible swap with sub Lt.
Mr v, hope tonights race went well?
Duck, thats an exercise I need to go through soon with the race diary.
Not sure if I'd have quite held that pace for another 3 miles. I think I'd have lost a couple more seconds off average pace, but still would have been a decent result.
Looking at McMillan, based on my 10m split it says I should be capable of a 40.11 10k, which if proved right would mean I'm not too far from where I want to be. It also said my Lt pace was 6.40 which is bang on what I have been training too.
The 4 x 8 min is supposed to be off 90 seconds but I probably take closer to two min. This week is 3 x 10 off 1 minute. If Mr v is right, this is just the start and I will eventually be built to 3 x 20. I decided to wear my hrm for first time in a race in years having been encouraged to train more with it. I kind of used that to gauge things. I did pull myself back in the middle stages as Hr went above 175. I knew I could drift towards 180 in last couple of miles, but not in first half.
Dan – Interesting approach there. Obviously you felt the V02 work didn’t do much for you then? I’m thinking of something similar for Florence. I’ve worked out I’ll have 12 weeks after the GNR where I plan to follow the last 12 of P&D but like you ditch the V02 (or at least most of it). I’ll be doing a reasonable amount of V02 before GNR so the idea is to do just enough sessions to keep it topped up. Anyone have any thoughts on that plan?
Duck – Looks like you’ve got a decent bunch of races lined up then. Is Amsterdam going to be the A goal?
DT – I don’t think the 3x20 is imminent so no panic for you just yet!
A decent run out for me at Blaydon last night. My garmin went a bit funny and over recorded the distance (mile one in 4.48…I wish!) so I’m not 100% on pace. I think the official distance is 5.7 but they always seem to be messing around with the course so who knows (most others seemed to have 5.78 on Garmin so it’s definitely not less than that). My time was 33.42 so you can probably add about 3 mins to convert to a 10k time. Doing a bit of Power of 10 stalking most around me seem to be mid 36 folk so seems to make sense. Good event and a quick course (slight net downhill).
Nice racing MrV. I do think that VO2 work was responsible for bagging that sub-20 5K just after the marathon but I don't think it helped me much on the actual marathon. I think it's designed for folk who have natural endurance over 26.2 and need the sharpening, whereas I think I need to spend more time around LT to ensure I can hack the distance.
DT, FWIW LT for me is around 175 with a max of ~175. For a HM I average 170-172 on a good day.
Remind me what your 10k pb is? I recall just prior to London you were doing a HM in about 1:28 so I would imagine if you can run 39:xx then I think you could dip under that soon.
Mr V, yep Amsterdam is very much the A goal. Only problem is the HM can be a bit thin as everyone is there for the marathon. But doing Edinburgh means I have two opportunities. I will see closer to the time.
Good run last night. Getting close to that 35:xx now?
Dan – thanks that’s helpful. I certainly think hacking the distance is my main concern!
Duck –I’m guessing sub 75 is in the back of your mind then?? I think mid to high 36 is where I’m at currently so plenty of work yet. A sub 36 is my main goal for the year though so I want to get it. For various reasons my volume of training hasn’t been great this year so hopefully I can up that soon and get some rewards. I’ll also be training with a new club as of next week (I’m moving house at the weekend) so hopefully that will help push me on as well.
Who are you joining? Hope the house move goes well. I think if you can get to the point where you can run about 30:30 for 5M in training without being totally wiped out you will have a good shot.
....maybe
10k for me this evening, have no idea how legs will respond post-Karrimore so no really expecting too much (I have also eaten way, way too much recently). Would be happy with a solid sub-36.
37:00... ho hum. Nothing felt especially wrong but probably not recovered from last weekend yet. Onwards and upwards!
Duck that's still a really decent time especially after a recent race. I was at the track at the Aberdeen sports village the other day, what an amazing facility it really puts Edinburgh to shame. Are you trained by either Joyce or Ken?
Mr V I found the Vo2 work a real relief from long runs in the P+D plan, I can't say if it helped my performance but it did stop me getting really bored.
Been doing unstructured easy running for the last few weeks while I get over whatever was making me feel rubbish. Unfortunately this coincided with what should've been my build up to a rather hilly HM on Skye so I'm going into the race quite unprepared, it's going to hurt.
Quick post - nothing much to report as I've spent the last 2 days wandering round the Peak District looking for groups of schoolgirls!
DT well done at the Welsh Castles. From the photos my friends have posted it looks like a lot of fun. I don't think that we'd get 20 male runners for a team, let alone have competition for places!
Solid effort Duck, next time...
Mr v, im definately with Dr Dan. If i did p and d again i would be inclined to swap some of the vo2 sessions for mp sessions. Not neccessaily all of them though.
CB- Are you North west based? I spoke to and saw a lot of people from clubs in that area. I think Sale harriers wiped the floor with everyone. Certainly a good event to be part of. A lot of my club made a weekend of it as well, travelling down the route and camping the night etc.
Bad luck last night Duck, no doubt a cse of some leg fatigue. Re your earlier question my 10k pb is 39.47 but thats 19 months old. My last 10k was December in 40.41. As i said, my 10 mile split 9which as i only ran 10.4 is fairly realistic for a 10 mile time) says im just shy of sub 40 now if I convert appropriately. I have a 10k 3 weeks sunday. Im not expecting sub 40 there but sub 41 would be great for now.
On the topic of tired legs, personal life is running the show this week so had little choice as to the structure of my training week so had to do my threshold run last night with still sore legs. Came out as 6.49 (161hr), 6.51 (164), 6.39 (165). So whilst pace was down so was hr in equal proportions, so i'm happy to blame on the legs not working properly!
Vello, We've had this discussion a few weeks ago, but i definately think I was fighting some basic virus over winter. When i think about how i feel now both generally and in training compared to pretty much January-Early May, there is a marked difference.
velloo - yeah ASV is amazing isn't it? Not coached by either of them but know them well, they have done an awful lot for athletics up here especially with Rhona Auckland.
DT, reckon that 10k time will be revised soon enough! Keep up the good threshold stuff and you'll be churning out those pb's before you know it.
FWIW neither Ducks had a great run last night, mum ran 40:43 which is still a excellent time but both of us struggled....
...unlike CS, who 3 weeks ago set a HM pb in Edinburgh, 2 weeks ago ran Karrimore in 2:45, had a 7 day taper before running a new marathon pb (4:34) at Strathearn on Sunday just gone and last night (i.e. 2 days later) ran a 10k pb of 50:57!
Off out for 75-80 minutes, proper cake-baking stuff.
Duck –I’m going to be joining Tyne Bridge Harriers. They’ve only being going a couple of years but have become very popular very quickly. They have loads of strength in depth so lots of people my level and a bit quicker to train with (plus lots who are loads faster!) At my current club there is only one other person of a similar standard so it’s not much use for quality sessions. Your legs were obviously still recovering last night – I’m guessing cardio wise it felt pretty easy.
Velloo – Thanks for the input. I can see the value in including the odd V02 session to keep It topped up and keep things interesting. Good luck with the race, sometimes those good performances come when you least expect them.
DT – Yeah looks like the route I’ll take re mara training. Good effort on getting the session in. The benefit of being coached is you always seem to get the session in somewhere if you know you have to!
Mr V- Yep, its what i found following p and d. If the book said something needed to happen, somehow i made it happen. If i were to my own devices last night certainly would not have. I think it was the experience of following a schedule that led me down this route. Sounds like a far better fit for you with this club.
looks like CS is coming along nicely, Duck!
DT I live in Cheshire and work in Manchester. I had friends running for Sale Harriers ladies and Altrincham mens teams. I run with a lesser known club called Razzer's Runners. Sessions consist of 6-10 mile runs then tea and biscuits, it serves a purpose to give me company for my slower runs.
Evening!
DT: well run at the Welsh Castles! I think are in 10k PB territory...if not next time pretty soon.
DT/CB: Sale (my club) placed 3rd in the women's (although they retained their Queen of the Mountains title), whilst a weakish men's team were 4th. From what I hear the weekend is a logistical nightmare!
CB: you seem to be going well! Won't make any of the Cheshire series but hope to see you at a Sizzler or two.I think you could well post a PB at one of those! (And still struggle to get in the top 150 or so!!).
The Sizzlers were my main aim this year, with the target being as close to 20 as possible. That's all gone out the window now. Hamstring/adductor problems have meant 5 weeks off, with just a 5 minute run yesterday and a walk/run session lasting 15 tonight being all that I can report. Was told at the outset that it could be 3 to 4 months before I can run properly. Or longer because I'm old! Taking it easy at the moment. Not even up to chasing schoolgirls around the Peak District!
Hope the new club goes well Mr. V. The higher the quality you can train with the better!
Thanks alehouse. Having rechecked it was Salford that dominated the men's. Yes, it takes a lot of organising and sorting as every leg is point to point. I sorted myself out in that my wife dropped me at the start and met me at the finish but there were plenty of others making arrangements for people to drive their cars between legs.
Fingers crossed you can recover and get going again soon.
TR and Alehouse - sorry to hear about the injury concerns. Seems to be quite a bit of it about!
Duck - looks like you'll be having a busy couple of weeks first half of August then. Now that I'm back to running a little bit (30 mins easy tonight covering about 5k but with the odd minute break every 5 or 6 mins to do some 'dynamic stretching') I am starting to think about races for later in the year (injury permitting!). I'm looking at building up to my A race being the Billericay 10k on 2 Nov, so looking for a few races locally to fit into training (5k, 5 mile or 10k) from August onwards really. Don't think anyone here seems to be from the Herts/Essex area, but if anyone has any recommendations then please shout!
Anyone racing this weekend? DT - nice race and report too
You seem to be recovering well Andrew.
It's just one thing after another Alehouse. You know ho to build up gently and hopefully it won't take too long. I'm hoping to get a pb at the second sizzler, but struggling to stay motivated round school trips etc. As of next Tuesday I've got 19 days without an overnight trip so I may get a decent block of training in. (And you would be up to chasing the girls - they walk painfully slowly!)
3 miles and a core workout this morning, 10 gentle miles planned for tonight.