HADD Training Method



  • NayanNayan ✭✭✭

    Do you start off really slow? I always found that going off too fast sends your heRt rate up and keeps it both high and unstable. By contrast starting off very  slow and building up over a mile or two gives you more control.

    the only mental toughness aspect is fighting the urge to go too fast too soon. 

  • Hi Nayan

    yeah, I start slow. I'm generally OK for the first 20 minutes. what i struggle with is keeping a steady HR after that and in knowing the right thing to do when it does start creeping up (stop, walk or slow down?)

  • TeknikTeknik ✭✭✭

    Johnny the key is more miles.  The more you do at a low HR, the lower and more stable your HR will become.  If I'm unfit, I have to stop to let the HR fall, and then run at a slower pace than I had been.  When fit, a small decrease in pace is enough to get back in the right zone.

    VT? image

    Bad news here - it's pneumonia, so I've cancelled Frankfurt image

  • Thanks for the encouragement Teknik.

    Very sorry to hear your bad news. Hope you're back on your feet soon.


  • (((Tek))) that's a bummer. Give yourself loads of time to recover. Pneumonia is a beast and not to be taken lightly image

    Nayan: brilliant marathon time image I reckon that was a PB and your A goal achieved?

    Welcome back Johnny. Wot Tek said ...

    Yes, VT - where are you???

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    Tek - crikey, that's really bad news. Take it easy.

    Where's VT?

    13 hilly miles yesterday ... didn't bother with any MP in the end as I'd slept badly and a 7am MP run was not very appealing ... I'd considered shoving some in towards the end but my legs were telling me they'd had enough MP for now. So a super-low 67% maxHR run for 9:17/m in the end.

    Easy week for me ... probably only 2 x 5/6 mile runs ... and some caloriesimage. The race is next Monday but I won't be back home and online until Thursday, so you'll have to wait for the grim and gory report.

  • NayanNayan ✭✭✭

    Cheers Chickadee. Yes a 10min PB and the other goal was to be able to give the last 10k a proper go.

    1mi warmup (easy + strides) and stretch over the 15mins prior to the starting line call, then:

    1mi easy, rising into goal pace then even splits. HM/FM split was something like 1:41 v 1:42

    HR about 10bpm higher than in training.  Race day nerves plus the windy conditions maybe. Drift was not bad at all  - low 160s for 22mi & climbing steadily towards 180 but I did manage to kick on for the mile  or so.

    Pace and form held together better than last time.

    Abingdon garmin data here:


  • Brian61Brian61 ✭✭✭

    Nayan, Great mara time!! Big congrats!!!

    Tek, bad luck! As Chick said, give yourself plenty of recovery time. 

    DrDan, not surprising you bonked given the efforts you've been putting in lately. Fingers crossed for you across the water. 

    No running at the weekend for me but a 38 mile bike ride with Brian jnr. He kicked my a*se too.

    70min run with 30mins in Z2 for me today - 7:41 pace for HRav 151 (82%).

  • NayanNayan ✭✭✭

    Tek - really sorry to hear that. Hope you're back on top soon.

  • Nayan, congratulations on what (I guess) is a massive PB for such a quick time image

    Tek, sorry to hear it's pneumonia, Frankfurt will be there next year and as others have said, look after yourself and come back slowly and stronger!

    Plus one for the 'where is VT' comments, hope all is well!

    Brian, rather than Brian Jnr kicking your butt am sure your a decent dad and let him win image

    Dr.Dan, am sure any (more) MP stuff would wear you down so maybe it was a good idea to miss them - good luck for next Monday image

    Hi Johnny, not sure where you live but most of my runs have an average incline of 80-100 feet. It's taken almost a year but have finally managed to reduce my HR going up though it is probably still too high. I used to let it climb to around 85% then dawdle downhill but am currently trying to run nearer 70% downhill and run (much slower) uphill trying to cap it at 75-77% uphill.

    I think the trick is to try and get my minimum and maximum HR closer to the 70% rather than running at 65-85% like I have been doing (if any of that makes sense?).

    All that will probably go out of the window now as TM season seems to be upon me.

    Another (very) easy week... 26.65 miles in 4:30 (10:08mm's) @68.09%AHR.


  • Hi Ecce - I'm in North London, it's not exactly the Alps but where I live it's quite bumpy - my local park used to be a dry ski slope. One downside of HR training is it makes you notice all those little inclines that you never noticed before but do now cos they raise your HR. You sort of remap your local area. I'm beginning to wonder if anywhere is truly flat! 



  • Sorry Everyone...just now getting time to post as I was on the road traveling home after the race and then never got a chance. I'm going to put a report together now but until then I will say for Brian's benefit that I absolutely did not f*ck it up image.

    Tek, devastated to hear that! So, so sorry that a bug got in the way of all that training. Nothing to be done now other than just take care of yourself. Chick is right that you really need to be careful w/your recovery. All the best as you make your way back.

    Nayan, nice running there fellaimage. Steady and in control was your theme. Nice to hear you had some jets left at the end. No better way to cross the line. Congrats!


  • NayanNayan ✭✭✭

    Nice one VTrunner - looking forward to the details!

  • Marathon report:

    The day leading up to the event was not ideal. The race was 3+ hrs away and near my in-laws place (we stayed w/them the night before the race). Had a hard time finding the start on Saturday afternoon as my Garmin couldn't recognize the address and had scrambled the streets. But saw some landmarks and figured I'd be OK on race morning. Dinner plans w/my wife's family that night went wrong and I ended up eating something questionable and not getting to bed until late. Then my father-in-law got calls starting at 2 am (he was on call w/the hospital) and I ended up with about 3 hrs of sleep (maybe). Arrived at the race in pitch black darkness and in a massive traffic jam of racers (and I was lost!). Ended up just barely making it to the start line. No proper warm up and I have to admit was not in a great state of mind in the corral.image

    Race day weather was a mixed bag. Temps were in the mid40s (good) but winds were 16-20 mph (not so good). There were about 1500 runners total and the course was a double loop.

    I set out at a very steady 7:15 pace. HR surprisingly was not too high and the pace didn't feel taxing. Despite this, my calves felt weird (tight/tired?) and in the back of my mind I wondered if I'd have some problems later. I ended up partnering with another runner in the second mile and we basically paced each other and talked to stay loose. Miles 4-8 were directly into the wind and uphill, then we looped back the way we had come and got a nice break from the wind. Came through the halfway point at 1:35:56, so about a minute off 3:10 pace. Because this was a double loop course, I kept seeing the later miles on the first loop (e.g. mile 10 also had mile 20 shown). I remember at mile 10 thinking I would be hard pressed to simply finish (if it really were 20 already) and wondering how I’d feel in 10 more miles when it actually was the 20 mile mark. But I kept checking my HR and it stayed in the upper 150s (79-80% max) through all these miles and that gave me confidence that I could feel better later (and I knew my training should hold).

    I lost my partner at mile 14 (he just disappeared after looking so fresh) so joined a new pack that came surging up to me. Then the pack eroded to myself and one other from 16 to 18. We were just cruising by people by this point. When we made the final turn (out of the wind) at mile 18 I had a huge mental lift. My new companion was running his first marathon and was feeling wildly euphoric. I have to admit this is when I really started to feel good, but knew I had to be careful as everything can change so quickly. We now started slowly dialing up the pace. Mile 19 was 7:09, miles 20 and 21 were 7:10 (yet my HR was still sitting at 160!). Mile 22 was 7:01 (and my last running companion hit the wall). I remember thinking that I may still have a shot at 3:10. Then I turned into the wind again. At mile 23 my legs finally began to feel heavy, but I knew the only thing that could get me now would be cramps. My mind was still focused and amazingly I felt like I was on a fast finish LR (as opposed to the end of the marathon). Racing now…Mile 24 7:12, mile 25 7:02, mile 26 6:59. Rounded the final corner at 5:50 pace and was howling. Saw the clock at 3:10:10. Could I have missed sub-3:10 by 10 seconds?!! Took me a minute to figure it out, but had forgotten about the staggered start!

    Chip time: 3:09:56

    Final stats: 1st half 1:35:56, 2nd half 1:34:00, HR ave 160 (80%). And an 11 minute PB to boot.

    Boston 2016 awaits!

  • NayanNayan ✭✭✭

    Superb run -well done!

  • Ya hoo   imageimage brilliant

  • Brian61Brian61 ✭✭✭

    VT, Take a bow! You definitely weren't sh*t!!!

    PB, negative split and a really well paced run. All at 80%. I think there is more to come too. 

  • Yeeeeaaaah VT!!! You superstar image. Sub 3:10 in the bag AND a negative split to boot. Be proud image

    I managed a paltry 6 this morning image. But after 10 days of doing sweet FA I couldn't expect to suddenly bang out 7mm image. Instead I settled for 10mm and 68% on a wet and windy morning.

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    VT - absolutely imageSTUNNINGimage racing. Really chuffed for you - well deserved after all the dedicated training and coming back from that soul-destroying heat-induced mishap last time out. I told you back then then you were a sub-3:15 runner who just hadn't actually run a sub-3:15. I take it back. You're a sub-3:10 runner! image

  • TeknikTeknik ✭✭✭

    Yippee Ki-Yay VT!!!! imageimage  Fantastic race !image

  • VT, Brilliant run! Makes all that hard work worth it image Great write up as well, think my HR went over 80% just reading it lol.

    chick, my apologies if this makes you feel shit but it gives me a boost ... I know your on your way back but I can (almost) do 6 miles averaging 10mm's @68% - does this mean (one day) I might bash out 7mm's??

    Maybe not as 7:22 is my fastest mile lol.

    The Isle of Mull is on lock down (as is most of the Western Isles) winds are meant to drop later today but currently in excess of 70 knots here!!

  • Thanks everyone! You guys are the best!!image

    Now I guess I need to figure out what next year will look like. I had convinced myself that I would not do another full marathon until Boston 2016 and just race shorter stuff next year (10K to 1/2 mara). Maybe the plan should be recover for 6 wks (just easy running/reverse taper), then do more of the same HADD stuff (2 subLTs per week + a (M)LR (maybe not over 15)) over the winter months. Then when that base is strong again I could move more into the speed stuff and prep for the shorter distances for spring, summer, fall. What I need to do is track down training plans for these shorter races. My thinking is that if I can develop my speed this year, I can put that towards improving my marathon pacing down the road. Would be interested to hear what you guys think (and for some advice on training plans).

    Nayan, enjoying the DOMS?image Surprisingly I can still walk stairs (not just up but down!) today. Past efforts have left me needing to hold the railing and kind of crab walk down on day 2 post race...

  • NayanNayan ✭✭✭

    The DOMS is quite exquisite. I'm am very much doing the Stair Walk of Victory which is somewhere between what you describe and an episode of The Walking Dead.

    Im also reading the P&D thread and trying to keep a straight face as folks force themselves to run tomorrow - I could swear they say to take at least two days before trying and to take longer if you need. I don't intend to run for 7 days! maybe a swim but thats it. 

    Nice that you're moving on to the next goal. `id like to give my 10k a proper go before the focus starts to lean toward London next year. After that marathons can take a back seat  - I reckon I'll need to work on speed and power for a bit in order to support further marathon gains.

  • Love the description of your stair walking!image Was just watching The Walking Dead last night and the zombies do indeed exhibit the post-marathon gait.

    I seriously could not run this soon after the event. My quads are too shredded. It would only make recovery worse in my case.

    When is the London event? Someone on the 3:15 thread suggested 4 x 1 mile repeats as a good workout for the 10K. I need to get up to speed on all this though.

    My other thought for future marathon improvement would be to fully finish the HADD plan and get my subLTs to 85% (comfy for the full 70 minutes). I've really only gotten good at 80-82ish range. This last cycle I was strong there for probably the last 6-8 weeks. Maybe I should have considered properly doing small sessions at 85% and moving to the full 70 minutes. Doing that might really get my speed up by simply raising my LT. I might have the base now to more quickly get to the stage of starting the 85% work so I can master it in time for a race (so far it seems to take a full 16 wk cycle to just get the 80% covered).

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    I generally have 2 full days of zombie stair walking before things start to improve. I then seem to recover quite well, although on a couple of occasions I have then managed to over-do things by jumping back into too much training. This time I seem to have got it about right ... 7 days complete rest followed by a 4 runs of 4-6 miles in week 2 got me back to a comfortable "HM @ MP" on the Sunday 2 weeks after rest day without any ill effects.

    VT - I have pretty much the same plans as you. I need to regain some of the road speed I had in 2011 and so plan to do no more marathons until 2016. I had a terrible marathon race in 2011 (forced things from 14-20 mi, then faded until cramps hit at 23 mi) but, ironically, it's still my best time! If I had that fitness now, I'd breeze to a sub-3:30. So, I figure I'd be better off starting my next marathon training phase at a point when I've got some good 10K/HM speed again. And anyway, I think mixing it up is good for the soul.

  • NayanNayan ✭✭✭

    VT - Shamlessly using this as a sounding board: London event is 26Apr,Blackheath. Between now and then the plan is - recover, reverse taper, focus on speed+10k, then back into marathon build up. Ive pencilled in MK half in early March and Regents Park have a 10k series that should do for benchmarking and tuneup.

    Depending on how much of  a stimulus/adaptation comes from this last marathon, I'm hoping to train for 3:10 goal time. I suppose this would be the right cycle to look for 40min 10k and 1:30 half, but its the sub 3:15 GFA that's really driving me on.

    After that I think it will be time to leave marathoning for a bit and lay the groundwork for further gains by looking at 5k/10k for a while and strength work. So no Autumn marathon - I Quite fancy Cabbage Patch 10 next year anyway.


  • DD, glad to hear your approach since the first marathon has been spot on. You should be ready to rock and roll.image And glad to hear our plans dovetail so well. Will be good to have company.image

    Nayan, plenty of time from now till London to do what you propose. I guess the key will be proper recovery before the fast stuff. As the your pace goals, 40:35 was my 10K time 2 wks before the marathon so that should be spot on. I've never raced a half so no idea there.

    Below I'm pasting my garmin HR profile from the race. I've never viewed the raw data in garmin like this...am still surprised my HR stayed in check for so long. Probably a combo of being tapered (and fueled) but maybe more than anything getting such cool weather to run in.


     That top picture came out pretty bad...below is another view that may be better





  • Or not...you get the idea hopefullyimage

  • NayanNayan ✭✭✭

    After the windy conditions I started looking into the way wind speed affects your run. Seems like a headwind takes more out of you than an equivalent tailwind can give you (ignoring cooling effects). I suppose it depends on whether the course loops or is point-to point, and the size of the field / whether you can hide in the pack or not.

    A good rule of thumb seems to be that a wind blowing at something like your running speed is quite likely to cost you a good few seconds per mile - so if you are pushing the envelope and looking to PB you might factor that in to reduce the risk of blowing up.

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