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3 hour marathon and cramps
Andy Kumar
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I ran the Brighton marathon on Sunday and finished in 3:26. I was a little disappointed with my time, as my 10k and HM times are 38-min and 1:23, respectively, so was aiming for around 3 hours in the marathon.
All was going well, and I was at the halfway point in 1:32, so on track for ~3 hours. Alas, after 20 miles, I got some debilitating cramps and had to slow my pace right down, even stopping a couple of times to prevent my legs from locking up completely.
This was quite frustrating, as other than that, I felt full of energy. I was well hydrated and took a sip of water/gatorade almost every mile. I also consumed 4 energy gels throughout, the first at 10 miles.
I am running the Kent Roadrunner marathon on May 30th, and would appreciate any advice on how to prevent cramps from occuring again.
Thanks, Andy
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Strava data here: https://www.strava.com/activities/284264960
Do you take any isotonic drinks onboard before or during ? I'm not sure if gatorade is or isn't ?
Hey cougie,
I felt okay hydration-wise. I have a weak bladder anyhow, so if I had drank too much I would have probably needed to stop within the first 10k.
As forisotonic drinks, no. My breakfast consisted of ~750mL water, a small chicken breast bagal, 1 large banana, berry smoothie.
I also had a Lucozade elite energy gel at mile 10, which I believe has electrolytes/caffeine.
With the growing research on cramps, the current theory on what causes them is muscle fatigue and failures in the neural communication pathways. Basically, you train a muscle to contract and the muscle fatigues. It, then, miscommunicates and stays contracted when it shouldn’t, causing a cramp.
The mechanism for muscle fatigue and muscle damage causing cramping is best explained through an imbalance that develops in the nervous system control of muscle. Muscles tend to become very twitchy when they become fatigued or are injured. You’re more likely to get cramps, then, when your muscles are working harder and are fatiguing, such when you’re out of shape or racing hard.
Got that from Competitor.com. It makes more sense than the salt depletion idea.
Basically you have to train more for that sub-three so you don't freak out your legs
Your strong enough for a 1:23 HM but not yet for a 3 hour marathon and your legs are telling you this. At the times you have I would say your more 3:15 max.
I cramped a little in my first marathon but as I got more 20 milers under my belt it has got a lot less. I did get cramp in a 50k in the summer but I put that down to not enough specific training for the course profile.
I second Millsy. I cramped in my first marathon but since then I've not suffered at all despite running them much quicker. I put it down to lots of 20(+)milers helping my body adapt to the stresses of 26.2miles.
I also drink more isotonic drinks in the build up to the race. Whether or not the benefits of isotonic drinks has been proved/dis-proved I figure it can't hurt.
Thanks for the input, guys. I had a slight issue with my right glute over the winter months, so training suffered somewhat. But here is a summary of my training ~12 weeks before.
26 jan - 1st feb: 43.7km (10k race, 38:18)
2nd feb - 8th feb: 79.2km (long run, 32km)
9th feb-15th feb: 47.4km
16th feb - 22nd feb: 83.6km (long run, 34.4km)
23rd feb - 1st mar: 28km (semi-long run, DNF due to plantar fascitis)
2nd mar - 8th mar: 39.3km
9th mar - 15th mar: 50.3km (HM race, 1:24)
16th mar - 22nd mar: 31km (pacing a HM for 1:40 group)
23rd mar - 29th mar: 63.5km (HM race, 1:25)
30th mar - 5th apr: 46.7km
6th apr - 12th apr: 55.8km
Additionally, having looked at your strava, it seems you started struggling with the pace around 26k.
I don't think it's because you went off too fast - a 1:23 would suggest you could run a 3hr marathon (maybe just sub 3) - so it does look like it could be training related.
Mind you - I've not drunk 750ml of water before a marathon either - I'd at least put a Nuun tab in there.
Personally, I'd say you're not running anywhere near enough miles (or km) in training to be able to maintain that sort of pace over a marathon.
I'd reckon 80km a week minimum would be needed.
Thanks, Gilly. I got a slight cramp in my right hamstring around that point, so slowed down, hoping it would clear off. Unfortunatley, it got worse and spread to my calf muscles, too.
Disappointing, beacuase from 21-26km, I felt absolutely amazing!
Funnily enough, the marathon I got cramp in was Brighton. Similar to you in my hamstring. It felt like I had been shot in the back of the leg at the time and I looked like an idiot running down the sea front (like a scene from Platoon).
Sorry it didn't go to plan. I went and watched Sunday and there were a lot of painful faces around the 22 mile mark.
Still sub 3:30 is a great time and it gives you something to work on for the next one.
@cougie, it was a little warmer than I had been training in at Birghton, but nothing too sinister.
@Gilly, the more mileage/week theory seems plausible! I know myself it was a little lacking, particularly with the long runs, and was hoping that my race efforts to perhaps compensate for a long run?
Nont-the-less, I saw your times and am impressed! With Kent Roadrunner in around 7 weeks, I'll be aiming for around 3:15 there. Any training advice for the next 7 weeks would be well recevied.
PS: I have Hackney Half on May 10th and Bupa 10,000 on May 25th, finally before the marathon on May 30th.
Lots of people run sub 3 and quicker on less than 50 miles (80km) a week.
I would agree with you though that Andy's mileage looks a bit on the low side, particularly the lack of long runs since February. Racing HMs in marathon training is all very well, but they're no substitute for a proper long run (20+ miles).
The only time I've gone sub 3 (so far) I only scraped under 1.25 for the half but did do at least 8x 20+ milers in the build up.
This is undoubtedly true, but I'm wondering whether those same people wouldn't also be running half marathons a fair bit quicker than 1:24/1:25? I too think the mileage looks a bit low for that kind of conversion to a fast marathon time.
You're getting some great advice on here Andy. You need a holistic approach to it and there are lots of possible reasons. I stood alongside you at the "elite" start and had no such problems. From what you have told us the possible differences would be that I ran longer on my long runs and I drank about 750ml two hours before with a SIS tablet in it. That t least starts you off well. I just drank mostly water and a few sips of Gatorade too. I think I took one gel along the course somewhere too. Your (recent?) half marathon was 2 minutes quicker than my recent HM.
Appreciate all the suggestions, everyone. My suspisions seems well founded; need more long runs! Perhaps some electrolyte consumption, too.
@Philomena Cunk, the 1:23 HM was at Oxford and Birmingham in October last year. This year was 1:24 at Silverstone.
As I have 7 weeks until Kent, I will be doing 3 long runs (beginning next weekend) at 20, 22, 24 miles, tapering down the last 3 weeks before the event. Any counter suggestions welcome.
Hi Andy,
I had a similar thing at Bournemouth last year. I'd done the training, plenty of 20+ mile runs was well hydrated and was attempting to go sub 3:05 (I was probably in 3:07-3:10 shape but was chasing the GFA).
All was going well until around mile 16 when I started to get cramps, first of all in my left calf but then in both and also in the upper legs. I tried stretching it out but couldn't get rid of it and limped home.
I had Abingdon two weeks later and wanted to prevent the same thing happening. I upped my electrolite intake but also had a sports massage. I don't do much (any) stretching and apparently my muscles were horrendously tight. I also wore compression socks. Pleased to say I ran Abingdon without so much of a twinge (I only managed 3:07 but hey ho!) I'm not sure whether it was one thing in particular or a combination but if I had to guess I'd say the massage made the biggest difference. It felt like I'd been given new legs!
Good luck!
7 weeks isn't long. You'll probably need another week to get over Brighton and throwing in a 2 week taper only leaves you 4 weeks for some decent training. Personally, I'd try and get in another couple of 20+ mile runs and some decent 10-12's midweek. For the 10-12's maybe throw in 30-40 mins at marathon pace. That said I'm not a coach and relatively inexperienced compared to others in here so hopefully you'll get better advice.
Just had a look and for what it's worth my first sub-3 was on the back of a 1.22 HM so you're definitely there or there abouts.
Good luck.
Sorry. Cross post. Don't get another couple of 20+'s in on top of the 3 you suggest!
My first sub 3 (2.59) was off a 1.23 half and I converted a 1.22 (well, 1.21.57, but let's round up...) to 2.52. But I run 55-70 miles per week in a marathon build up. I know that sub 3 for a guy is more like sub 3.15/3.20 for a girl and I did manage 3.19 off 50 mpw, so I don't think you need 55-70 mpw, but you do probably need regular weeks around 50 and for that to include a long run (16-21) and a medium long run (11-15). You haven't got time to make huge tweaks to your training before Kent but maybe in the autumn or next spring try Pfitzinger & Douglas's Advanced Marathoning schedules; the first ones are up to 55 mpw.
Thanks for the advice, Gilly. Was thinking along the same lines as you to put in a few 20+ milers before Kent, then taper. Would be pleased with a sub 3:15 there, but may just decide to run and see how it all goes.
Plan for next 7 weeks, as I have half race on May 10th.
Week 1: 30 mile easy recovery week
Week 2: 50 mile week (long run of 20 miles)
Week 3: 30 mile week (half marathon race)
Week 4: 50 mile week (long run of 22 miles)
Week 5: 25 mile taper week
Week 6: 10 mile taper week
Joolska, your times are fantastic, especially for a lady (hope that doesn't sound sexist, but I think you know what I mean!). You're right about the scarcity of time to engage in a proper program. Definitely a plan for 2016, with a view to get that sub-3 then.
I will bump this thread after Kent to let you all know how I got along, but of course if anyone has any further advice, it will be much appreciated.
The lady who finished 3rd overall was a professional Kenyan athlete. A very good quality one at that. And she was cramping up big time. She barely made it to the finish. Still broke 3 hour but it just shows you that even the top elites can struggle with cramp.
From what you've posted I think you're racing too many HMs - a distance which you already appear to be well trained for - at the expense of training for the marathon distance which evidence suggests you're not.
If you plan to do two 20 milers within three weeks, when you only managed two 20 milers within 12 weeks last time, I would suggest that the weekend inbetween should be a proper cutback week to adapt, not yet another HM race.
Hi Andy,
Had an almost identical experience in Manchester - went through half at a very comfortable 1:28 but savage hamstring cramps at mile 20-21 and finished 3:01:52. Had done 6 x 20+ long runs in preparation with no such issues.
I'd wondered whether I needed to work more on stretching but there's some interesting stuff about Paula Radcliffe and her hamstrings in this month's Runners World. She actually got quicker as her hamstring flexlibility got less! I'm starting to wonder if strengthening these muscles may actually be the key but havent got any evidence to back this up. It's certainly something I'm going to give a try.
Any thoughts from the wise old heads amongst you?
I also had the same at Manchester on Sunday - admittedly behind Rob (was aiming for about 3.24ish, came in at 3.29) but from 20 onwards it was a hideous 10k of stopping, starting, screaming in pain (literally!) and then ploughing on through it. I was gutted as went through 20 in 2.35 and was feeling good at that point! I was a proper idiot & didn't take on any fluids til far too late in the race, but had done loads of long runs (including the Jurassic challenge in march - 3 maras in 3 days) so had plenty of milage in the legs, but just not at that pace. I'm doing MK next weekend - chances are I'll be slower anyway, but would like to get nearer the 3.20 later in the year and terrified this will happen again as it was really frustrating & disappointing as I know I could have done better! It also bloody hurts & I must have looked a proper t**t. Good to read i'm not alone though!! Maybe I need to just run more of them faster so my legs just get used to it!!!