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Good luck to all the sub 3:15s, the aspirants, the old sages, and those who have moved on to pastures anew. Some of us are just out to grass.
-my running is pants, but that's no surprise because I'm only doing one a week. 8m/m if I'm lucky. I don't do long distances now.
-biking's OK. I did an hour this evening with some long bitch 1:4 hills. A Saturday ride is usually 50-60 miles.
-swimming is amusing. Enough said.
The new mantra "My aim is to complete, not compete".
Good to hear from you. Do you have any events lined up in which to pootle around?
Lorenzo, it's just your body saving energy for Sunday - don't worry about it.
1hr tready last night with 10mins @6mm. 90mins of swim drills this morning.
Joolska: posh start with heated portaloos? - 210 - 2.47-2.49
Moof: red gfa - 30600 - 2.55
PMJ: green - 28978 - 2.59-3.05
OO: red gfa - 2.59?
LB70: green - 27082 - 3.04-3.09
NM3: red gfa - 30594 - 2.58-3.01
Poacher: green - 29139 - 3.19
Freemers: posh start with the same old portaloos - 257 - 3.20-3.25
G Dawg: Green - 27394 - 3.07 - 3.13
Lorenzo: red gfa - 31909 - 2.59/3.04/3.06
Golden Eagle: green - sub 3.10
ssc: blue - sub 3.15
Good to see some great target times up there....to be honest mine is a bit finger in the air! But I hope I am the last of the group to finish as it will mean everyone has hit the mark
Bit worried about the size of the bag now....thanks for the heads up though Poacher.
Last run due later today - 5 miles with some strides thrown in for good measure. Then rest, beetroot and carbs
Might have known you'd be poshing it up Freemers! Does your time prediction also hint that you're too posh to push?
Collected my number last night and bought a couple of nice tops from Adidas with the VMLM logo on. My last London was 7 years ago, doesn't feel that long but the top I bought back then has worn out.
SIS are giving away a nice free running belt made by Ronhill if you spend £10. So I bought their £15 sample pack for £5 and an assortment of gels and powders for another £5 to get my belt. All stuff I would buy anyway. Bargain!
The bag is smaller and transparent. I usually just pack what I need in a rucksack and put that in the bag. Hopefully it will all fit, I'll test it tonight.
Final run tonight, a dead easy 3 miler with a few strides in the middle mile. If my left leg pain is minimal I'll be a happy bunny and more relaxed for Sunday.
GD
GD - that is an impressive list. You're a brave man. All the best for Sunday.
GE - good to hear from you again. Some good training under your belt. Hopefully you will have recovered from Finchley and it will all come together in London.
Abbers - have fun setting some new targets.
Bike It - wise move to take a rest now. And excellent news on the dark chocolate!
Jools - cracking last MP run! Looks very promising.
VTr - I'm not really in a position to offer any advice - I'm sure other wiser members of the thread will help though.
Leslie - just hoping I haven't already done so.
Lorenzo - trust in your training.
Blisters - good to hear from you. As long as you're still able to get out there and have some fun, it can't be all bad. Take care now.
Anyone starting their carb-loading today?
I was a bit disconcerted to discover that my left ankle is rather weak so hope I haven't overdone it yet again. Also worried that my hips are aching really badly this morning. No idea why. It can't be taper madness as I haven't got that far yet! Probably going to extend this 2 day rest into 4 or 5.
probably do you good anyway, Gul, to have a mini-rest - you've trained well in recent weeks, with some excellent sessions, so your body will appreciate the chance to prepare for the final pre-taper push
Poacher wrote "On the right is Steve Jones, former WR holder and, shockingly, still UK record holder after more than 30 yrs" . . . how the hell did Mr Jones do it though - I mean - he had no "gel strategy", "beet shots" didn't exist ; in fact he may not even have eaten beetroot !
12 miles on the trails around here today -
. .Poacher may recognise
How effective is beetroot? Do you guys really think it lowers your LT on race day? Might have to experiment in the next go round.
Gul, take a few days as I agree you've earned them and they won't hurt. I lost a week just 3 weeks before my taper started and I think it actually benefited me greatly. Take care.
BTW SJ, that's some brisk treadmilling
I think Steve Jones just did a lot of hard running Birch and over hard routes from what I understand. Something that is not appealing to anyone but a minority these days. The picture is fairly easy to identify for Barnes Wallace/ Dambuster fans. Must have been very pleasant running up there.
One thing that strikes me about your training VTR is the 2x 10 miles of subLT (or basically marathon pace as you also term it) per week. It seems a lot to me. For example a to 55mpw 12w P&D schedule will have 3 sessions in 12 weeks at MP and one session per week of speed. For how many weeks do you do base training and then how many with the subLT sessions?
Slokey: can you tell me how long the standard IM taper is? Just trying to reference when I should start a taper
I woke up more tired than I went to bed. I felt terrible all morning so I went for a run and now feel good. I ran the same dirt-road and trail route as Tuesday, but conditions difficult today - very slippy underfoot due to rain. Still I was faster today at the same level of effort than Tuesday so everything must be good. Now I wish I was running home too but I have my bike.
Fairly standard stuff compared to a bog standard run taper with same frequency and intensity as usual but lower durations.
Cheers Slokey
Hi Bike It, Over say a 20 wk marathon build, I do that schedule 2 wks on, then 1 wk cut back and just repeat. I was basing it on the HADD stuff as this is what he recommended in his plan. And one of his trainees later posted that for FT guys (which I think I am) you could simply do this schedule as it has virtually everything you'd need to run a fast marathon. And it worked for me as it took me from a debut 3:31 to a 3:09. But now I think it has been too much of the same the past few years and that I've neglected the faster stuff. Anyway, at first glance it does seem a lot (and it is) but I seem to do fine on this workload. But then again, I've not compared it to anything else so who knows what changing my quality days up would yield (e.g. less = better). I guess that is my question. On the one hand, I love the current plan because it gives very solid fitness/endurance (so I fear that going to far away will leave me unprepared for the distance) but also realize I am very one dimensional currently. Maybe the best mix would be a first phase of this HADD stuff for say 2 months and then shift to a plan that has more hill repeats, true tempo runs, intervals, etc. In then end, I feel like I need to run faster quality sessions to get faster (and not only at shorter distance, but especially to break my marathon plateau).
Oh No!
Manchester marathon people need to read this. Course measured short for past 3 years!
Looks like this year was OK...
BBC News
GD
Gdawg - that is a bit tragic alright but to not notice for 3 years is incompetent at best
Not good news G-Dawg, I saw this earlier on Facebook from the AUKCM body that officially measure routes. Looks like it was their fault and to be fair not the Manchester marathon organiser fault. They were reliant on the result of the official certificate.
I'm just glad I got a PB this year on the correct distance. I see Power of 10 has also reclassified the result from the last 3 years 2013, 2014, 2015 to now call it SHORT MARATHON.
Re: Manchester - different for those witha GFA that is affected but I'm personally not changing the size of mybachievement and time I gained in 2015. I ran the course with all of the mental strategies and thoughts that go with it ie I walked at mile 25 marker because I had mentally told myself one more mile before allowing a small drink stop. Could I have run another 400m at that point ? almost certainly. Would the last 400m have added more time to my PB? Yes but not convinced it would be a lot, the mind can push you v hard and who is to say we couldn't have dug deeper as we ran tonwards the finishing stages - I knew I was well under 3:20 and a definite PB, mentally I eased off. Would I have eased off if 3:20 looked uncertain, NO!
A long way saying I am still proud of my efforts last year!
Argh, the VLM kit bag is tiny, my bag does not fit inside it. Going to have to buy a smaller bag tomorrow. Primark here I come!
Could someone on a proper computer please add me to the list?
CC2 - posh start. a) 3.15, b) not a PW c) faster than the financial director of my company
Joolska: posh start with heated portaloos? - 210 - 2.47-2.49
Moof: red gfa - 30600 - 2.55
PMJ: green - 28978 - 2.59-3.05
OO: red gfa - 2.59?
LB70: green - 27082 - 3.04-3.09
NM3: red gfa - 30594 - 2.58-3.01
Poacher: green - 29139 - 3.19
Freemers: posh start with the same old portaloos - 257 - 3.20-3.25
G Dawg: Green - 27394 - 3.07 - 3.13
Lorenzo: red gfa - 31909 - 2.59/3.04/3.06
Golden Eagle: green - sub 3.10
ssc: blue - sub 3.15
CC2 - posh start. a) 3.15, b) not a PW c) faster than the financial director of my company
ssc: Good on you, I would take exactly the same approach. Amazing how they could make such a mistake.
GD
Speedy, I particularly like your c target. Don't get beat by a bean counter!
VTr, looking again at your programme I wonder if there isn't enough light and shade in your campaign - You could try having lots of nice and easy and a bit of reeeeaaaalllly hard. Lots of MP miles is kind of in between the 2 zones. My IM plan has nothing in that middle zone (zone 3) with the logic being that the effort vs reward vs impact on ability to do the next session isn't worth it. Im doin g large volumes in zone 1,2 (sub 140bpm) with a spattering of zone 4 (160bpm plus).
6:30am swim set (90mins of drills and intervals) and 2hr fast, hilly ride tonight in lovely sunshine on my newly serviced steed. Flying.
VTr- my training looks similar to Slokey's, lots of easy miles with nothing really faster than 8mm pace keeping my heart rate nice and low and controlled. I'm happy to plod along closer to 9mm pace as I think this is just as good to build a decent aerobic base and improve my ability to avoid heart creep.
But I also do a hard session on the bike and run where I'm really pushing it, I'll do long tempo runs at say 6.15 pace or a decent interval /hill session to work on my speed and strength. I rarely work in that grey area between 7 and 8mm pace, apart from the odd tempo lite session as I don't think you need it. I can't see too much benefit of running lots of mp miles as imo you're not working on either endurance or speed.
How do you run at slow pace tho? I really find it hard to go slower than 7.45 - 7.50 pace and probably run well over 50% of my miles at around 7.20 pace or faster. I go out with the intention of running 8.15 or more but within a few minutes have speeded up. I just find running slowly incredibly dull. Surely if you are doing 10 miles plus at 7.40 that's got to be building endurance just as well as 10 miles at 8.30 ? I also do one session a week at around 6.20 pace or intervals at 5.40ish. Having just suffered fade in the last 4 miles of Brighton, I would happily try harder to do some slower sessions if it is going to help, hard though it would be to do. The training pace calculator based on my 10k pace says I should do my long runs at 7.55. So many contradicting views around about all this stuff!!
SJ and Moof, thanks for the feedback. Interesting that I'm doing so much at a zone you guys kind of avoid. But to add more info, other than those subLT runs, I pretty much do all my other running at HR below 70% of max. This equates to lots of running at 8:40 to 9 m/m. The subLTs are dong at 160-165 HR (which is 80-83% of max for me). The past few marathons I have ended up running the 10 mile sessions at say 6:50-55 m/m pace pretty comfortably at the end of the build. But in the cool fall marathons my best pace has been 7:15 m/m in the race at a HR ave of about 160-162. So my subLTs seem to be perhaps 15-25 secs faster than actual MP. According to HADD, all that running at 80% should push your LT up so you can run at higher HR and sustain a faster MP on the day. So when you begin the program, you run at more like 75% max HR for a month until this is comfy on those 10 mile sessions then bump to 80% and work again until comfortable and then bump HR again. But I've never gotten above the 82% range. He would say you can get up to 87% max and be comfy there (and only then are you ready to race the marathon). I've just never been able to push all that way up. But then again, maybe my max HR is lower than I calculated a few years ago and I am in that range already.
He also says when you get that LT maximized, you can then start doing fast stuff because your aerobic engine is finally built at that point.
Jason, one principle from the HADD/HR stuff is that most runners naturally run too fast because their ST fibers at lower efforts are not trained (and thus running slower can actually feel uncomfortable). He advocated squeezing the toothpaste tube from the bottom (at low HR/effort) to full train all fibers instead of starting midway (faster running/higher HR all the time). It seems strange, but I can tell it really works to do most of your stuff very easy. And if you build your quality session just right, you won't mind running the other days that easy cause you'll need to in order to recover. At least that's how I think it is supposed to work but I'm no expert
.
Haven't had a chance to read back yet but what a total bummer it is to read the news about Manchester. untidy business, it just gets worse, from the bad publicity it received this year, and, sadly I think it will put a lot of people off entering there in the future, which is a real shame as it's a great city and shouldn't be so It's a real shame for those affected by that news. Makes me wonder if they knew a while back and if the change in the course for the finish in 2016 was a fall back from that? Like I said earlier, shame for all those affected by it. KR, bet you're happy you pb'd again this year!? Anyhow, thoughts turn to London now....... Go all!!
Just read your report on Boston VTR. That's a good time on a tough course. As you say it's the toughest races where you learn the most and you can definitely improve from here given that strong showing.
Welcome back to Abbers, GE, Blisters and Speedy. So glad you made it to the start line Speedy. You've had a tough year and this will not be fast by your high standards but maybe you can enjoy it and really savor the experience.
I had 3 days in Paris and sneaked a couple of 5 milers this week to keep of the flab after much biere and good food. I'm going to the Expo tonight and will run a parkrun with my 3 daughters in London tomorrow- might have to let Junior beat me on this occasion to save the legs. So mid 40's mileage this week
Had a look back and I've averaged 48.5 miles over my 15 week programme.The only open issue is which trainers to wear. Still can't decide between Adidas and Mizuno so will take both.
I'm on GFA red start, so see some of you at the coffee stall for 9ish. Or in the pub after with my entourage including Junior OO.
Finally on targets- anything between 2:58 and 2:59:59 would be fine for me, but I have a funny feeling it might be a tough year. I have the 16 stone 6ft 6 giant pacing pal with me again. Hope to see at least some of you and wishing you all the best.
Birch - great day for a run out on the trails. Are you not tempted to do the Ladybower marathon then
Bike It - sounds like easing up has done you good.
Speedy - hope you can relax and enjoy yourself on Sunday.
Pain in my hips yesterday spread to glutes and lower back. I'm not quite sure why but I haven't had any caffeine since Sunday and apparently muscle pain is a withdrawal symptom so hoping it's just my body reacting instead of the more usual headaches. Doing a few exercises to try and strengthen my ankles.
Hope the weather is kind on Sunday and you all go smash your targets!
Birch - nice pic - view from the rear turret of a Lancaster? Or do you have your own drone and sit in the Ladybower Inn taking pics by remote control?
Steve Jones was fairly scornful about today's standards, bemoaning the lack of competition and poor times. He said that in his day, a 2.12 marathoner was a decent club runner rather than an Olympic-contending elite. The next person on stage was Scott Overall, who falls neatly into that category. One wonders whether he heard the implied criticism.
VT - sounds like you need more of what distance runners dread, i.e. proper speed. My breakthrough from 3.XX to 2.XX came from cutting out the long runs and learning to go eyeballs out over 1m and 5k. Risky, but effective.
Quick Q - am on blue start. How early is it recommended to be in the start pens? 2009 I didn't enter until 10 ,ims to go but it took me 7 miles to reach the 4 30 pacer and I was aiming for 4! Couldn't work out if pens were v large with lots of paces, people move forward near the start time etc.
As for Manchester, whoops, 3 yrs of short courses is embarrassing. But it shouldn't negate the achievement of people who sweated and strained to finish on the day. As least someone has coughed to the mistake(s), which doesn't always happen.
Joolska: posh start with very average portaloos - 210 - 2.47-2.49
Moof: red gfa - 30600 - 2.55
PMJ: green - 28978 - 2.59-3.05
OO: red gfa - 2.59-2.59
LB70: green - 27082 - 3.04-3.09
NM3: red gfa - 30594 - 2.58-3.01
Poacher: green - 29139 - 3.19
Freemers: posh start with the same old portaloos - 257 - 3.20-3.25
G Dawg: Green - 27394 - 3.07 - 3.13
Lorenzo: red gfa - 31909 - 2.59/3.04/3.06
Golden Eagle: green - sub 3.10
ssc: blue - sub 3.15
CC2 - posh start. a) 3.15, b) not a PW c) faster than the financial director of my company
For several years there's been a completely informal post-race thread catch-up at the Chandos pub at the NE (top right) corner of Trafalgar Sq., just above St Martin's church. All welcome. It's easy to find but always extremely crowded which is tricky if you don't recognise individuals. There is an upstairs as well as a downstairs. You may spot Lorenzo & OO from their sub-3 happy faces, and Speedy with a smug "I humbled the boss" look. I may don the bright orange Boston mara posing jacket to remind me that I used to be a runner. Hope to see some of you there.
There's another thread about the VLM bags that says we're meant to have all our stuff loose in the bags so that it is visible for security purposes....so I guess just tipping the contents of my backpack and then stuffing the back pack in as well? I'm not that happy about having valuables on show like that, might have to wrap those in clothes I think.
Managed to combine beetroot and carbs with a beetroot risotto that OH cooked last night - scrummy
Bad do for Manchester. I loved my Manchester Marathon in 2014, in 3:12 and if it was short, then my 3:09 at Nottingham in the autumn 14, was a better improvement over 6 months than I first thought. Trying to spin the positive.
Steve Jones - hard man
JT, there's a lot of good stuff about slowing down (and conversely speeding up) on the Runners Connect website and podcasts. I've changed my approach since hurting my hip and initially found it really hard to slow down my easy training runs. But now I run slowly and pain free and find it all rather therapeutic!
Nice view there Birch.
Yep hope a few of you can make Chandos for a quick hello or a few beers.
I just had beetroot salad too...