The Middle Ground

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  • The net downhill bit was what attracted me to enter in the first place image

  • Mr VMr V ✭✭✭

    TR - Any magic words of wisdom you can dish out in terms of your good form? Or is it just a case of good old injury free consistency? 

  • Good question Mr V. You’ve essentially nailed it, a clear run without injury disruption. 2015 was poor with injuries, but from September onwards I started to get going again with only a couple of setbacks. By January this year I was training almost pain free.
    Another significant factor is training with a good group on the track most weeks since I moved clubs last September. Being amongst other good runners is an excellent way of improving. Though I must stress they have a good philosophy at Richmond and Zetland, nothing is done eyeballs out, the coaches are always emphasising the need to dial it back in training and save your big efforts for racing.
    My training pattern over the winter was tempo or hills on Tuesday, Track or hills on Thursday, long run on Sunday and as many easy miles as I could fit in between. I also did lots of strides on easy days over the winter to keep in touch with speed. So nothing radical.

    Since April my focus has been on middle distance, so lower weekly miles with more quality, sometimes a third weekly session on grass on Saturday or a parkrun. I’m actually finding the higher quality, lower mileage approach tougher on my legs. But hope it pays off long term once I add in the miles and go back up the distances again

  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Tr, its probably slightly disingenuous for me to call it Mara pace having just run a 3.08 at London. Its probably mp if I could run 50 miles a week routinely. Otherwise called steady I suppose.



    Echoing what you say above, I've now gone a year without enforced disruption and whilst nowhere near your standards, I've made son pretty big gains in that year.
  • alehousealehouse ✭✭✭
    A couple of examples above of consistent consistency, and if possible progressive consistent consistency: seems to work.
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    TR - so what does your typical middle distance training week look like and how has it changed from previously?

    John Carr 5K went OK ... 20:03 official, so a bit frustrating not to bag a sub-20 (it was 20:01 on my watch, so even more so in the immediate aftermath!). A lumpier course than I'd expected and, given only 1 run since the Leeds HM and some hard work on the bike this week (including 16 miles yesterday), I hadn't really set myself up optimally. Nevertheless, running hard on "bike legs" was perfect prep for the up-coming triathlon. Oh, and technically (i.e. via Po10)  it's a PB as my previous "non-parkrun" 5K PB was 20:18 image. A smidgen under 73% WAVA ... 4th best ever.

    I really worked hard on the return leg... got to the turn-around in 10:17 and decided that a potential 20:34 was way too depressing, so put the hammer down. It helped that this race series is part of our club championships, so I was chasing down a club mate ahead ... caught him (finished 32s ahead in the end) and then decided to go after the next one ... caught him in the last 200m (finished 4s ahead). Ended up hitting my maxHR (age-adjusted since I actually last did the test), so definitely worked hard! After 3 negative splits in the 10mi, HM and this 5K, I feel that this year I'm starting to get the hang of this pacing malarkey.

    1, 3:57, 150/158 bpm
    2, 4:19, 157/161
    3, 4:03, 158/162
    4, 3:50, 164/167
    5, 3:53, 166/171

    Good to see PRF there, and also HO (naturally mopping up the race and series win!). Not sure if PRF managed to blag his way in as a V50 again ... patience, patience, not long now! image

  • Mr VMr V ✭✭✭

    DrDan - Impressive stuff in the second half of the race there. Frustrating to just miss the sub 20 but a good performance nonetheless. 

    TR - I think training with a good group is a huge plus. Sounds like a very similar approach to what I've been doing, certainly with the winter stuff. Like DrDan I'd be interested to see what a middle distance week looks like for you.

    I had my target race after a block of 10K training last night which unfortunately resulted in a DNF. Frustratingly I can't find any other quickish 10ks coming up to give myself another go at it.

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    image The Leeds 10K (July 10th) route changed a couple of years ago and is largely equivalent to the Abbey Dash route now ... hence assume it's quick, so long as you get a good starting position (lots of fun runners).

  • parkrunfanparkrunfan ✭✭✭

    It is like the good old times in here, isn't it? image

    So close last night Dr Dan but then again it was raining so you were carrying extra weight by the end, that must be worth at least a second.image

     

    Alehouse - Hope the nose issues go well today and maybe you'll still be able to squeeze a mile in somewhere, you know Ron would image

     

    So John Carr 5K last night was a bit surprising. 30 miles have been run in the 3 days immediately following Sunday's marathon and yet at the end of it out pops the fastest official 5k of the year at 17:44. As the last 5k as a V45 that'll do nicely.

    This was despite a little coming together at the the halfway turnaround point with none other than HO. We both nearly ended up on the floor and certainly lost momentum as a result. Mind you she still managed 17:30 to go with her 17:45 and 17:43 from the last two weeks. When you consider that on the two weekends in between she has won the Leeds HM and then run a 2:55 marathon that's not a bad couple of weeks!

     

  • Some asked about my training:

    It’s not strictly pure MD training as I still want to race 5ks and will switch back up the distances in the autumn – I have a spot at the GNR in Sept and Amsterdam Half in Oct – so would say my current training is geared towards running well from 1500m to 5000m. So a bit of a blend really and I would remain confident of still running well over 10k and should adapt to HM training fairly quickly I would think.

    As said previously, I am now trying to do three sessions per week whereas it would have been two per week over winter and mileage when not racing that week has dropped from around 60 miles per week to 40-45 ish.

    Sessions
    Tuesday: generally tempo type work but at the shorter sharper end of the tempo spectrum. So last week was 20 minute tempo, before that I have done a 4 mile tempo and also this session; 10 mins tempo/5 mins easy/5 mins tempo/3 mins easy/3 mins tempo - the easy bits were still at a reasonable pace 7:10s I from memory. I have also done a fartlek session on a hilly route and have another planned next week, that’ll be around 45 mins long; so plenty lactate with harder/faster efforts mixed in. I guess it means I am getting a good blend of threshold to 10k pace work in on a Tuesday.

    Thursday track: there is a group of middle distance focussed runners at the track on Thursday. They are all quite young 17 – 23 years old with me at 37 being the old codger of the group. I get given the sessions by coach and tend to lead the group, so I have enjoyed that element as well.  
    The sessions themselves have been: 12 x 150m with 250m jog rec; 10 x 200m with 1 min rec; 10 x 400m with 90 seconds rec; 1000, 800, 600, 400, 200m with 2 mins recovery.
    Tonight its 1200m hard with 10 mins recovery followed by 4 x 400m with 2 mins recovery. The 1200m is going to be tough, I guess I’ll be aiming for 3000m pace, maybe a touch faster if I can manage it.

    Saturday session: 10 x 2 mins with 1 recovery on grass; parkrun; 8 x 150m strides on grass. I have had a few weekend races so haven’t done so many Saturday sessions, but they will mostly be grass sessions or hill sessions.
    Sunday long run has been 90 minutes, so generally 12.5 – 13 miles and add in a 45 minute runson Monday and Wednesday with some strides, Friday off most weeks and that’s a training week.

    I am coached btw, not sure if thats clear, I started with a coach at the club from April when I changed focus from 10k type work to more MD focussed. It works quite well as my coach* can set the Thursday group session for some of his athletes and other club members and Army Guys and Girls (we use the Army track at Catterick Garrison) who want to join in and then gives me the rest of my sessions to do on my own. 

    *  coach is the club chairman but coaches some other mebers as well, the club coach is his coach, they tend to work together and have done for years. They make a good team and IMO are the primary reason the club is so healthy at the moment.

  • DT - not a million miles away though. I help a guy at work who is a very similar level to you. He's on a big improvement curve at the moment, recent sub 40 down to 38:08 quite quickly. Looking at sub 6 min mile 5ks right now. He is fancying an autumn Marathon and eventually wants to run sub 3, might be a couple of Maras down the road but he's heading in that direction. I have suggested he start to get comfortable with doing tempo runs at 6:50s and over time increase the distance he can do. Alternating those runs with threshold runs should bring him on quite a bit.

    Hard Luck Mr V - Melmerby 10K near Ripon on the 29th May is quick.

    Great racing prf and Dr Dan, I wish I couldve been there last night. I might do the whole series next year. Reckon you could run real quick once you have run the course a couple of times.
    I hope Hannah got some good bling for being top lady? 

  • Mr VMr V ✭✭✭

    DrDan - Good call, bit of a trek for me but would be well worth considering.

    Cheers TR Melmerby would be a decent call but its the OHs birthday and also the day after the playoff final so I suspect I'd be in no fit state to run anyway. Interesting to see the training details - do you think having a coach has been a big help?

    PRF - No let up then I see and incredible consistency as always! Was good to see you both at Kirkby the other day. Shame we didn't get much chance for a proper chat - we were on a bit of a tight schedule!

  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    It is amazing what you and HO seem to get upto!!

    Well done Dr Dan.

    Hard lines, mr v. What went wrong?

    TR-  I quite enjoy my runs at 6.50-7mm pace as I feel like ive had a workout but dont carry the after effects that a proper session would give. My aim ultimately is to go sub 3. Did 3.18 in 2014 and 3.08 this time so getting there. Im pretty hopeful of some pbs over the summer having pb'd at parkrun by 14 seconds the week before London and missed a 10k pb the weekend before that by 5 seconds. With 19.03 and 39.26 to shoot for I am hoping to go sub 19 and sub 39 by year end.

    Just an easy but 8.5 miles today. Whilst I am between schedules I am trying to take in the hilliest possible routes.

  • Mr VMr V ✭✭✭

    DT - mainly man flu but the humid conditions didn't help. I was actually at 6 miles which seems a stupid point to drop out but I had to do it to avoid being sick! If I was on for a decent time I guess I'd have battled through!

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    Bad luck MrV ... but you'll be back (maybe in Leeds!).

    PRF - great 5K time!image

    TR - thanks for the training breakdown ... very interestingimage.

    Bike commuting and 800m of front crawl for me yesterday ... hope to get in a longish easy run today. My wet suit has arrived but went back to the Royal Mail depot as no one was in ... will collect on Saturday and (if it fits) may try my first open water experiment on Sunday morningimage.

  • Mr V – nothing coming up soon that I can think of. There are those Jane Tomlinson type 10k’s, there’s one in York over the summer. I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s fairly quick. The New Marske Everyone Active 10k and then there’s Darlo in Aug and the Ray Harrison Memorial 10k in Aug, both quick. Might need to go further afield if you want really quick.

    Hills are good DT, I did lots over winter and reckon it helped quite a bit.

    Brutal session at track last night. Coach changed the session from the one that was planned, it was:
    2 x 1000m off 10 mins then 3 x 400m off 3 mins, 5 mins between the sets.
    Session was a bit more complicate though, the 1000s consisted of alternating 200’s: 200 in 30”, 200 in 45”, 200 in 30”, 200 in 45”, 200 in 30” and the 400s were 200 in 40 and then kick for 200 flat out. 

    Didn’t hit 30 for each 200, but there were a couple of 29s in there, plenty of 31-32s, pretty tough when kicking off a 45”-40” 200m.
    The 40 second 200s felt like a jog, that’s 5:20 pace give or take. One of the toughest sessions I’ve ever done! 
    Stiff this morning, hills tomorrow.

  • Hello everyone - dropping in briefly as the household is in pre race mode (Windemere Half for me, Full for Mrs-to-be Duck and Mother Duck). Dan was making me feel bad! 

    Forgettable year so far here. Was in 1:13-1:14 shape at world half champs and everything went wrong then and after that. Looks like it might be Ferratin/Thyriod or something similar which has a family history. Managed to scrape a 16:30 road 5k a few weeks ago but it's been a difficult year thus far. 

    I'll have a read of posts/new faces later on.

     

     

  • alehousealehouse ✭✭✭

    Good to see you Duck! Hope the health issues get sorted!

    Talking of which...nose op on Thursday seemed to go well. Won't know for a month how it has panned out. Remarkably lacking in bruising and tenderness: if it wasn't for the bleeding I wouldn't really know I had anything done. Washed out rather from the general anaesthetic though. Managed to keep the streak going with short runs on Friday and yesterday. Won't be running more than 20 minutes for at least three weeks: very gentle exercise permitted, and that's it.

    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • parkrunfanparkrunfan ✭✭✭

    Alehouse - Sounds like a very good job on the nose if there was so little in the way of after effects. And the streak continues...... image

     

    Duck/Thirsk - It is certainly a sign of how things have changed when we have expressions of mild disappointment at 16:30 5Ksimage

     

    Mr V - Standing next to you, HO and your other half at Kirkby made me feel like a midget image When did everyone get so tall?

     

    Had a cracking evening at the Night of the 10,000m PBs last night at Parliament Hill, what a great innovation. It has to be said that this event, Kent Roadrunner and the Red Bull Global race are exactly what us needed to make running entertaining and drag it into the midern age. Last night we got to stand in lane 3 drinking beer while the best runners in the UK and further afield were battling it out for Olympic places literally 1 metre in front of your nose, you can't get much closer to a top class event than that.

    HO got a little bit of a taste of the atmosphere by running in the curtain raiser at 5pm. She had realistic expectations of being last by up to about a minute but it actually turned out pretty well with consistent 87.5s laps to finish 11th of 21 and 3rd lady in 36:33. As of today that gives a UK rank of 30 but there is such a lack of runners in that 4 minutes between 32-36 minutes.

  • alehousealehouse ✭✭✭
    Happy new age group, PRF! Not sure the others are getting taller; they say you shrink with age. I should know!



    Sounds a great evening at HHH! And well done to HO...again!
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    Great session TR! Sounds brutal!

    Duck!image Bad luck on the health front but still some pretty tasty running.

    Good news on the nose alehouse.

    PRF image - happy birthday to you! Sanatogen is in the post.image

    Well, my wet suit arrived on Saturday and it fit ... so I had my first go at open water swimming on Sunday morning in Wakefield ... it was interestingimage. I started well enough, but then after 5 minutes took in a mouthful of water and struggled after that ... breathing was erratic and I realised I may be out of my depth. However, as I was in the middle of a lake, I decided it was best not to drown and did a bit of breaststroke while trying to get the subdued panic attack from surfacing. About half way around the 500m loop, I reverted to front crawl, found my rhythm, and it was fine. Another two loops followed and I actually really enjoyed it (apart from the rash on the back of my neck ... body glide next time!).

  • The rumours are true! Will have to read back image

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    Simon! You live! image

  • Mr VMr V ✭✭✭

    Amazing everyone is coming out of the woodwork! Hello Simon!

    Duck - You've come an absolute mile since the old MG days. I remember the struggle you had to break 40 for 10K. How times have changed!

    PRF - Haha, I always think long legs should be an advantage but it doesn't seem to be the case!

    DrDan - Rather you than me image I take it triathalon's are on the cards?

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    imageYep ... to "celebrate" my passage to the V50 category, I foolishly signed up to the Olympic distance open race next month, when the elites come to Leeds. image

    http://leeds.triathlon.org/

  • ioweriower ✭✭✭

    Cor it's becoming a right old reunion on here!

    Duck - I look forward to the day when I casually mention scraping a 16:30 5k! One day, one day! Hope you get sorted soon

    alehouse - good effort keeping the streak going!

    So is this your first tri Dan? It's a slippery slope i'll tell you now!

    90 minutes on the turbo trainer last night followed by 4x1 mile run (with warm up and cool down 6 in total). Was hoping for around 6:45-6:50 pace for the mile repeats so was pleased with 6:25 / 6:36 / 6:41 / 6:41. Think I went off too quick for the first one so probably could have reigned it in to produce 4 x 6:36 (the average), but the legs were pretty dead after the turbo session and couldn't have known how knackered they'd feel after the first mile or two. Still, gives me a nice line in the sand and that average would result in a 40:55 10k, which would be a PB by about 15 seconds.

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭
    iower ... great session! I've done a few pool based sprints before but this is the first Olypic distance and open water experience!



    1 mile front crawl yesterday plus 10 miles bike. Today was 14.3 mile run. Hoping to get in a longer bike ride tomorrow via a recce of the tri bike route.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Good session iower.



    Crikey, Simon and Duck making a reappearance.



    Just been ticking over here with some easy runs. Have the possibility of a 5 mile race tomorrow night. Iam just at the mercy of my wife's journey down the m6 tomorrow afternoon. Even without being at my sharpest, with a good run a pb is a reasonable prospect.
  • ioweriower ✭✭✭

    5.5 miles lumpy mixed terrain run last night. Legs felt a bit unresponsive, felt like I was pushing/struggling a bit especially up the hills but average pace came out at 7:20 so not too shabby.

    Dan - you'll love it. I'm much quicker in a wetsuit, especially so in a lake. Just make sure you're sighting fairly often (I normally go every 4 breaths/8-10 strokes), couple of quick glances just before breathing to the side then back to it.

  • WelshpoppyWelshpoppy ✭✭✭

    Blimey it has been busy here

    Nothing to report still benched(4 weeks) with knee I saw GP incase it was something serious like a tear but no ,she sent me to walk in physio clinic .....what an eye opener 2 hour wait and then told as I am female over 40 it is osteo arthritis rest for 6 weeks then I will be back running and here is a leaflet!!......So I was pretty upset coming out, but refused to take it lying down ordered 2 pairs of my orthotics as mine are 12 years old and will wear some in my walking shoes.I am hoping as inflammation has finally gone 2 weeks tops and I should be back runningimage

    Live each day as if it was your last  give it all you have to reap the rewards.
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