Are you and "in" or an "out"?

Peter Collins · July 2016

Screamapillar wrote (see)

Peter Collins wrote (see)

Screamapillar wrote (see)

As for Corbyn, he either needs to go or split his party.

He is a principled man but has completely the wrong personality. He is not a communicator. He seems to keep quiet when he should be vocal and every time he does open his mouth what he says gets misinterpreted.

This is not the man who can deliver the country from people like Nigel Farage who communicate using simple slogans and carefully chosen language.

It's the MPs, not Corbyn who are splitting the party. He has an overwhelming mandate. That is important. For years the right of the Labour party tried to get the voting system changed to erode the power of the unions. Now it's closer to one person one vote and they get a result they don't like, they try to annul the people. Look at last week. I didn't like the result of the referendum, but I can hardly complain when more people voted out than in. That's democracy.

The mandate of his own supporters isn't worth a hill of beans when it comes to actual government. If you can't appeal to the majority of the voting public in the constituencies that you really need to win, you are never going to win a general election. He may have integrity, principles and all the rest of it. None of it matters on its own.

He doesn't see immigration as a problem but many former Labour voters do,. This is a huge problem for him. Either he gets out and persuades them (not seen any evidence of him doing that) or we all have to accept that his party are dead in the water.

But the point is that his party elected him. Are you in favour of coups? I'm not. There's no evidence, anyway, that soft left candidates (Miliband, Eagle) can do any better, nor that going back to Blairism will work either. If you're suggesting that the Labour Party has to become a draconian anti-immigrant party, it's going to lose as much support as it gains, in my opinion, and it certainly wouldn't be a party I'd want to support.

Peter Collins · July 2016

RicF wrote (see)

Confusing isn't it.

The discussion about who the leader of 'whatever' is, nowadays comes down to presentation and image.

Do you like the look of them? do they look good? Can they talk like a DJ?

Before Cameron was elected I saw a montage of several candidates for the leadership. I had no idea or interest in what they had to say. It didn't matter. I knew what the criteria would be.

I simply looked at the pictures and pointed to one face and declared, " He'll win, he looks better than all the rest".

I was correct.

Conversely, Gove will never win because he looks like Gove. However, his is a double minus because he appears to be as bad as he looks.

Anyway. I forgot this bit.

When all these educated people who voted 'remain' complained that they wanted the same opportunities for their children as they had had. Why is it that their children are now forced into debt for their education, whereas their parents had theirs for free?

Before, it was possible to go to University work/not work. Get a result or no result. Cost of course - Zero.

So if you came away with a degree, it was a plus, plus situation. If you failed, it only cost you time.

Now the goal posts have been moved. It costs whether the student passes or fails.

I don't hold with that bit about the debt only being paid back if the victim earns enough. Interesting that the limit is set so low it's damn near minimum wage rate.

Personally, I feel that debt should only be paid back if the student hits higher rate tax level.

Instead the poor (and they are) sods are coerced into 'taking an offer they can't refuse'.

That's the real tragedy. Not the leaving of the EU or political squabbles.

It's putting the next generation into debt before they have even started.

Yep. A society in which everything is marketised is the problem. In those terms, the EU is a bit of a sideshow - not a universal panacea as some remainers have it; nor the devil incarnate as the other side has it.

15West · July 2016

Hate to post another link...but here's another link. Irvine Welsh's opinion on the whole thing in the good old guardian...pretty good take on it IMO....

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/06/beauty-beneath-brexit-bedwetting-leave-vote-diversity-genuine-change

Screamapillar · July 2016

Peter Collins wrote (see)

Screamapillar wrote (see)

Peter Collins wrote (see)

Screamapillar wrote (see)

As for Corbyn, he either needs to go or split his party.

He is a principled man but has completely the wrong personality. He is not a communicator. He seems to keep quiet when he should be vocal and every time he does open his mouth what he says gets misinterpreted.

This is not the man who can deliver the country from people like Nigel Farage who communicate using simple slogans and carefully chosen language.

It's the MPs, not Corbyn who are splitting the party. He has an overwhelming mandate. That is important. For years the right of the Labour party tried to get the voting system changed to erode the power of the unions. Now it's closer to one person one vote and they get a result they don't like, they try to annul the people. Look at last week. I didn't like the result of the referendum, but I can hardly complain when more people voted out than in. That's democracy.

The mandate of his own supporters isn't worth a hill of beans when it comes to actual government. If you can't appeal to the majority of the voting public in the constituencies that you really need to win, you are never going to win a general election. He may have integrity, principles and all the rest of it. None of it matters on its own.

He doesn't see immigration as a problem but many former Labour voters do,. This is a huge problem for him. Either he gets out and persuades them (not seen any evidence of him doing that) or we all have to accept that his party are dead in the water.

But the point is that his party elected him. Are you in favour of coups? I'm not. There's no evidence, anyway, that soft left candidates (Miliband, Eagle) can do any better, nor that going back to Blairism will work either. If you're suggesting that the Labour Party has to become a draconian anti-immigrant party, it's going to lose as much support as it gains, in my opinion, and it certainly wouldn't be a party I'd want to support.

I am not suggesting that at all.

I am saying that Jeremy Corbyn needs to win an election.

At the moment he is not likely to sway floating voters, has a disunited party and his core voters seem to prefer listening to liars like Nigel Farage.

So how do you suggest he does it?

Peter Collins · July 2016

Corbyn was trying to do it, albeit on a more left-wing agenda. What were the MPs who deliberately staged staggered resignations and set up pointless no-confidence motions trying to do? The party consists of its members, not just its MPs. The point was to try to bully him to resign and thus avoid a leadership election that includes him, because their candidate or candidates wouldn't win it. We won't know if Corbyn can win an election until there's - uh - an election. If you're saying Labour would be in a better position to win an election with Angela Eagle or someone from the right of the party in charge, I'd say that would be just as difficult given the conditions at the moment. I'd also disagree that Labour's core voters seem to prefer listening to Farage: polling suggests more than two-thirds of Labour voters opted to remain in the EU. You want to look at the Tories for where the referendum vote was lost.

So, yeah, sure... Labour needs to win an election, but doing so at any cost, a la Blair, has led the Labour party to where it is now... disillusioned with the rightward drift that denuded it of membership. I understand Labour is now the largest socialist party in Europe. That's got to be worth something. Being old, I can see things in the long term and beyond the next election - the Tories won't always win.

VDOT52 · July 2016

Indeed- the Tory lite attempt of the blairite movement ruined labour for a generation who saw no difference between the parties.

15West · July 2016

...this is all true...but playing devils' advocate here...it won them three elections after 18 years in opposition.

RicF · July 2016

After the Brexit vote!

Corbyn as Labour leader at the next election?!

Victory by a massive landslide.

15West · July 2016

Bit cryptic that Ric.

RicF · July 2016

15West wrote (see)

Agree with all that Ric.

First of all, this response meant my day was immediately better. Cheers 15W .

The cryptic bit,

I mean I have the feeling that Corbyn as Labour leader would do very well in a GL.

The Brexit vote went the 'wrong' way, so anything can happen.

Clearly the capriciousness of the British voter knows no limit.

Hell, if a horse was put up as a future leader it'll get voted in just for a laugh.

At one census I put down 'Jedi' in the box for religion, so the idea has...legs.

Dustin · July 2016

"You want to look at the Tories for where the referendum vote was lost."

From, I think , the Guardian:
The real story of the night is that more than a third of Labour supporters backed Brexit. The Remain camp was banking on the support of at least 70 per cent of Labour voters, if not closer to 75-80 per cent. In the end only 63 per cent of Labour voters wanted to stay in.
Tories were more pro-Brexit - only 42 per cent remain - but actually by less than polls had predicted.

So it would appear that votes were lost across all the major parties.
My strongly conservative constituency voted remain, As did many regions in the SE.

VDOT52 · July 2016

This. Only the areas where they don't want strangers marrying their sisters voted to leave. The do like keeping it in the family in the sticks.

Muttley · July 2016

Cameron is largely to blame for the lack of support from Labour. His and Osborne's govt has done its best to undermine Labour (the new electoral registration system, trade union bill, end of check-off, cuts in short money etc are all for partisan gain and nothing else).

No wonder Corbyn wouldn't share a platform with the Tories. He saw what that led to in Scotland. When Cameron needed cross-party support for his campaign, it wasn't there. Not surprisingly.

VDOT52 · July 2016

Labour also has a lot to gain once the majority of the 'go home' voting tight realise they were lied to. Not supporting Cameron is a win-win for labour. Tories self destruct and if labour avoids doing the same it should reap the rewards of not being Tory lite .

On the upside the pound might be a straight swap for the dollar soon do all that exchange rate hassle will be simpler...

15West · July 2016

Leadsom or May for PM. Exciting times.

seren nos · July 2016

Not Leadsom please....she seems way too close to UKIP for my liking

I really dislike her without really knowing why

15West · July 2016

They both give me the creeps...but Leadsom gives me the creeps just a little bit more.

Screamapillar · July 2016

Leadsom wants to repeal the anti fox hunting bill and didn't support gay marriage.

Don't trust that smile of hers, she is a nasty piece of work.

JT141 · July 2016

Well, I hope it's May. In these critical few years at least she's competent. Leadsom looks like a fucking nightmare. But who knows what the Tory membership wants. Somebody that resembles them I guess. God help us all.

Tom77 · July 2016

I hope it's May, I don't particularly like her - bit too right-wing for my tastes. But we really need a responsible adult running the country right now. I mean, fox hunting FFS. Is that really the most pressing issue facing the country?

One other thought. If Leadsom did win with only a quarter of her own MPs having voted for her, then doesn't that put her in similar difficulties to Corbyn?

VDOT52 · July 2016

Whoever the members Tory members vote for should be leader, but I'd rather it wasn't a Tory.

15West · July 2016

Morning comrades.

Labour membership has surged...Corbyn not going anywhere. Think the rebels need to see that any move against him is pointless and try and work with him, then see where we are after the next election, whenever that is.

I have a horrible feeling Leadsom will sneak it with the tory members. Could be Corbyn v Leadsom for the next GE, that will be some contrast.

I used to come on this site to talk about running.

seren nos · July 2016

I had to laugh when Angela Eagles own constituency issued the statement supporting Corbyn. I bet she wished she had kept quiet as she must be worried about deselction now

RicF · July 2016

In keeping with the montage from which the last Tory leader was selected.

Take your pick.

Try not to milk it.

Philomena Cunk · July 2016

Question Time last night.

The lib dem woman complaned about the refrendum because of misleading claims by the leave campaign(no mention of the same misleading claims for remain). She claimed that 52% shouldn't have been enough and because of the turnout it was only 37% of the nation(everyone who didn't vote was a remain voter??).

She then said Brighton had voted 70% to remain(it was 68.7%). Funny she didn't alter that statistic to include people who didn't vote.

How do you make a statement about misleading information and then back it up with more misleading information?

15West · July 2016

She was on the remain side so she must be right. Only leavers are liars.

Nessie · July 2016

Easy - be a politician.

In the Scotland Devolutuion referendum in 1979, the result was overturned because not enough people turned out to vote, so I guess there is precedent. But it was written into the referendum legislation - not sure if that is the case for the EU referendum.

[Deleted User] · July 2016

I hope Leadsom becomes PM then every day I can ask where's the ??350 million for the NHS this week?

Skinny Fetish Fan · July 2016

Labour membership surging - at £3 a pop is anyone sure this isn't Tory members just having a laugh and keeping Corbyn in power?

I like the way you all stereotype so beautifully on here - I don't vote Tory but I actually know our local Tory MP and he is a perfectly normal, thoughtful, caring man (and a runner).

15West · July 2016

Tories are weird. QED.

Mr Worry - I'm sure they must vet those membership applications, didn't they have to because of the telegraph campaign to get Corbyn in before?

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