Are you and "in" or an "out"?



  • JT141JT141 ✭✭✭
    There were plenty of warnings given of the consequences of leaving. People just chose not to believe them. I agree there wasn't much talking up of the EU in the debate, or even explaining what the EU is and does - I swear I've only spoken face to face with one person since the vote who could explain what a free trade market is. We all voted predominantly ignorant of the issues, but large numbers had absolutely no fucking clue - just a bunch of general complaints they were encouraged to, and more than willing to, throw into the mix. I know it reflects badly that there were endless voxpops of leavers saying stupid and bigoted things, and that Farage and other right wing elements made hateful capital out of this, but I'm afraid that's the company you keep. There's no conspiracy, and there's no obligation to treat anyone who voted out with kid gloves so as not to hurt their sensibilities - the PC brigade is still rather pissed off and not coming out to play.

    We all personally have little to no control over what happens next, what deals are done, whose interests are met etc. Our collective outlook makes not one toss worth of difference. The financial forecasts are negative because that's what they are. If we've been convinced that in global trade relations we can collectively "think it all better" we are in a world of shit.

    I'm kinda with screams on this. I feel slightly alienated by the vote, suddenly ill at ease with the community around me. Every nation goes through peaks and troughs. In the grand scheme of things the ramifications of Brexit will be minor compared to so much else that has been dealt with. The consquences of the vote are not what really troubles me. It's that people did this, and lots of them. It's the complacency, wilfull ignorace, hubris, and lazy falling back on anecdotal gossip and casual resentment that got us there. And I make no bones about describing a large proportion of the leave vote in those terms. My first reaction when I saw which way the vote was going was one of shock because I really didn't believe that we were that stupid. And now I do believe it and it feels shit.

    I guess many Americans are feeling like that with the rise of Trump. It's a bigger place which might soften the blow. And there, as here, I can fully understand the frustration with the embedded politics. But while Hillary is very much the drab magnolia of political choices, I'd rather have that on the walls than a dirty protest.
  • JT141JT141 ✭✭✭
    Just noticed that in trying to type "wilful ignorance" I got no part of it right. That was between complaining about "complacency" and "hubris". Bugger.

    On a completely unrelated note I spent last night You Tubeing loads of Jake Thackery strongs. I strongly recommend it.
  • JT141JT141 ✭✭✭
    Thackray. Songs. FFS.
  • We won't know if it was better until probably 5 years after the exit at least, I at least voted knowing this. It's really down to what trade agreements can be reached and with who. We are the 6th largest economy in the world we have plenty to offer to buyers and sellers worldwide.

    In my opinion we will get a better deal on the goods/services that we produce than compromises that benefit Europe as a whole rather than Britain. I think and believe in the long run we will be better off. Europe wasn't our biggest trade partner before we joined the EU, no reason we can't trade with others. For reference inside the EU we had only a relatively small say in trade agreements and were completely unable to do our own private deals, so yes I think we can do better.

    At the war comment, just lol.

    Time will tell on it all I just hope the right people do the right job and do it well.

  • JT141JT141 ✭✭✭
    A right funny nun she was.
  • before we joined the EU we actually still manufactured and produced stuff......stuff that the rest of the world wanted..

     very little we actually produce now although we are a massive consumer market


  • VDOT52VDOT52 ✭✭✭
    Seren is correct. We make almost nothing. Sure we assemble stuff made elsewhere and we have a money launderers favourite banking system but outside that the country has nothing that can not be sourced cheaper elsewhere (except scotch). The only reason we are assembling stuff for foreign companies is that we are tax cheap and in Europe. When you take away the Europe but we are very exposed, and not just as nationalist idiots.
  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭


    I wonder how many people think as far ahead as five years?

    I doubt if many think beyond the next pay day.

    Staggering how such a subject (personal finance) which is the cornerstone of the modern existence is generally left to look after itself.

    Most of the gripes about Brexit are about money, direct and indirect.

    As seron said, it's a consumer market.

    Unless you are a supplier or investor, it isn't a market which will make you well off.


  • VDOT52 wrote (see)
    Screams, thanks for defending the new (ish) kidimage

    You do not believe anyone should have an opinion unless it agrees with you, You think you are some sort of high almighty . Always there ready to judge and has no respect for others opinions. often resulting to childish name calling. The above is the latest in a long line and all for what, because I did not agree with you.


  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    I'm still quite amused at being informed I bought a pack of lies.

    That's the written word for you. Put something in print and it looks quite believable. 

     I could claim, that thanks to Brexit I now had a million quid?

    But what are the chances of that, in or out?

    I voted out btw, so I'm; by default, stupid. 


  • VDOT52VDOT52 ✭✭✭

    I do like my opinion but I am also very often swayed by factual, experiential and/or philosophical arguments. My apparent unwillingness to embrace the opinion of others is usually due to unfounded opinion being waved about as fact. That is my unfounded opinion anywayimage
  • VDOT52VDOT52 ✭✭✭
    Ric, anyone who buys you as a fool would get a bad bargain, but your alter ego 'Stella' can be a bit sarcastic and perhaps flippant at times (Usually about stella'o'clock).

    Still you can be as flippant as you like if almost no one can catch you image
  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    I stopped doing the Stella after taking advice.

    On the Guinness now.

    Much better image

  • I must be more old and cynical than you lot. My wife asked me this morning so why are we not out of Europe yet what's going on? Apart from having the answer with article 50 etc; the fog cleared. All during the campaigning in the media I was thinking this just looks like a shill. It's a cover up for something. Then now with the out vote winning and how it was won it seems clear. We couldn't easily eave the EU before the vote but now the populace has given permission for the government to leave if and when it feels appropriate. Job done, nicely engineered. Back slaps all round. And whatever side of the fence you sat on then and sit on now; ultimately we trust the government to govern so exit should be at the right moment and not before. The world and trade alliances can't stay the same for ever there are too many developing nations developing fast so we need the flexibility of an exit vote victory. 

  • JT141JT141 ✭✭✭
    I don't think our political establishment is sophisticated enough to get as Machiavellian as that.

    I doubt Ric is a full time idiot, just part time like most of us. But I'll say otherwise to get a derisory chuckle. I find as I get older though that there's only a fine line between the oblique musings of a playful intellect, and the obtuse rambling of a confused old man. I too find Guinness can tip that balance. And Creme De Cacao takes me completely over the edge.
  • JT141 wrote (see)
    I don't think our political establishment is sophisticated enough to get as Machiavellian as that. 

    It would depress me thoroughly if they are not.

  • I disagree with those of you who want Article 50 declared now, for the simple reason that triggering Article 50 hands over all negotiating power to the EU (that's why it is in the Treaty in the first place!)

    Triggering Article 50 starts the clock on us leaving in exactly 2 years, so the EU only has to pretend to negotiate and then in 24-months-less-a-day they can dictate the terms to us. We're screwed.

  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    The EU can dictate all it wants, but if you're prepared to walk away with nothing from the EU, then they don't have any leverage.

    Lets get real. The UK will lose all sorts of hand outs and fancy EU sweeties.

    If we don't accept that as a probability, then we're as delusional as guys who demand and get a divorce but still expect a married life with their ex.



  • So, ignoring the state of the pound, have any of you Leave voters got anything to say about the government planning to get businesses to publish the number of foreign workers they employ or saying that foreign academics won't be able to advise on Brexit?

    Does that make you the slightest bit uncomfortable or is this xenophobic shit the sort of thing you had in mind when you voted?

  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    I think it was tory rhetoric to please the mostly pro brexit tory membership audience, and tap into the brexit voters who did so due to immigration. Not sure if they can or will go through with it. Saying that, I think they are treading on dangerous ground with all this anti immigrant/foreigner's all feeding the rise of nationalism in this country.

    Meanwhile UKIP squabble like feckin idiots in the European parliament. 

  • MsEMsE ✭✭✭
    Chris2304 wrote (see)

    I disagree with those of you who want Article 50 declared now, for the simple reason that triggering Article 50 hands over all negotiating power to the EU (that's why it is in the Treaty in the first place!)

    Triggering Article 50 starts the clock on us leaving in exactly 2 years, so the EU only has to pretend to negotiate and then in 24-months-less-a-day they can dictate the terms to us. We're screwed.

    Spot on.  The negotiations will take years to develop*, let alone find a working solution. And then it needs enactment into law. In the meantime, any prospective trade partners will be steering well clear of the uncertainty.


    * and if it doesn't, we should be very worried because it isn't straightforward and needs due regard.

  • Um but uncertainty is even worse. If we are going then we need to get on with it.  It is not easy and nor is the legal side BUT the government has said all current EU law will be left in and then removed going forward as appropriate.

    So actually it will take much longer than 2 years to fully unravel but that was always going to be the case. It does make me smile when people say nothing has changed and all the claims of issues were false. They are right about the first bit;  nothing has changed .... that's because we haven't left yet.

    The hard Brexit discussion is interesting as well. It does appear that politicians have listened and that people don't want immigration so that will be the primary aim and will mean we will leave the common market if free movement is insisted upon.

    From a democratic perspective that is quite impressive; although whether people are fully prepared for all the implications is another thing.

    I was/am an IN

  • JT141JT141 ✭✭✭
    So how's it all working out? The pound's not looking too clever; rate of inflation, food and fuel look set to rise. Parliamentary scrutiny out of favour - I vaguely remember something about the importance of the sovereignty of parliament to make the decisions vital to our national interest. Nothing constructive actually happened yet beyond talk of hard Brexit, whatever the hell that is. Exclusion from the single market I guess. I'm sure it will all be fine.
  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    Doesn't really matter that much whether it's in or out.  There's only so much any government can do.

    All any government can do is set up a range of conditions which hopefully enough people can take advantage of.

    Just back from Ireland and had a read about conditions of 200 years ago.


    We don't know we've been born.









  • So, to the delight, I am sure, of leave voters parliament is sovereign. 


  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    The fact that the 'law' can stop even the Government from carrying out the wishes of a democratic majority, simply proves what has always been the case.

    Your lives are ruled by a group of people who only let you do and have what they want you to have.

    You and your vote counts for nothing.

  • So just to check I've got this right.

    The Government, made up of MPs who were in the majority of MPs voted in by the voting public, decided that whether we were in or out of Europe was too big an issue for MPs to decide on their own and we should have a full referendum of all the population entitled to vote.

    That population decided roughly 52:48 that they wanted to leave.

    To leave Europe the country (presumably personified by the Government) needs to invoke Article 50.

    Some of the people in the 48 decided that it wasn't right that article 50 should just be invoked based on the will of the people allowed to vote but instead it should only be invoked by a vote in the Houses of Parliament by MPs whose job is to represent the will of the people who voted for them, but who had already decided that this was too big a job for them to decide on their own.

    Today the Court decided that they were right and that the MPs who represent our views have to vote in House of Common to invoke Article 50, which if not invoked will mean we will not leave Europe and therefore the will of the people indicated in the Referendum would not happen.

    The smart money suggests that a vote by the MPs who represent the will of the people who elected them will actually vote the opposite way to the way that the people showed was their desire when they were given the vote on the matter due to the fact that the MPs didn't feel they were up to deciding on their own.



  • TheDanTheDan ✭✭✭

    Not quite skinny


    David Cameron, under pressure prior to the election from UKIP and his own party who were getting twitchy about losing votes which might swing the election Labours way (polls were pretty close at the time). He decided that the best way to reduce that threat would be through having a referendum after the election had finished, thus kicking the can slightly further down the road from that point and quietening his own party (plus its postulated that he expected a colalition to be the most likely outcome of the election and the Lib dems would not have agreed to it, plus he would have expected to win the vote). The tories won,  a law was made an passed with approval from both pro and anti EU MP's both of whom thought they'd be able to decide this one way or the other.

    Then the unexpected happened, brexit won, marginally. The new conservative government have appear to have decided to pursue a "harder" brexit than most of parliament were expecting and have refused to say what this would consist of. Feeling that Teresa May and the gang have gone beyond the mandate provided by the exit vote, parliament have (quite rightly) asked for input into the negotiations before any decision is made and article 50 invoked

  • this is trhe same as every court case.solicitors making cases out of nothing so that they can claim large fees for looking fro small technicalities in the law.........

    they can charge more for an appeal......

    It would be funny if the leavers took it to teh eurpoean court to get the final appeal....


     ignoring our own laws to get European laws to overide them   image


     I still think its all crap and leads to more uncertainty for the markets etc......

    We had the vote.....the remain campaign sat on their arses and let the newspapers stir up support for the leave campaign.....they didnt work very hard to get the remain message across and they lost

    Im gutted we voted leave but we did and all this crap now isnt helping



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