The Middle Ground



  • I think if there had been a parkrun within striking distance she would have done it.

    I don't know whether you've seen but the GB team beat the USA to team gold:

    GB 10:35:01

    USA 10:40:00

    So the 4 GB girls are World Championship Gold medal winners. They received the medals a couple of hours ago. Amy led the team home with a brilliant debut at 50k but to get all four of the team in the top 8 was probably way beyond anyone's expectations....

  • Yes, brilliant team performance! Too wet for parkrun this morning so went to watch cross country: liquid mud...when it wasn't think thick deep stuff. Hope my cross country relay is firmer next week!

    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    That's an excellent outcome. I was looking at Amy on po10 last night. It's amazing to see that 5 years ago she was running close to 1.40 for a half!! It makes you wonder how many other people are.out there who don't know they very good runners.

    XC for me today. I came hideously down a very high calibre field, however I did manage 6th scorer for club beating three guys to it I've not beaten in years at xc. It's also first time I've scored for club in Birmingham league. 

  • 5 years ago Hannah couldn't run a barhimage

  • Bath!

  • Yes,  five years ago Hannah would have been delighted with "close to 1:40" for a half...or even sub 50 for 10k, I reckon!  Mind you, at my age I'd probably take either now!

    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • MYOXMYOX ✭✭✭
    Feeling a bit tired over the last couple of weeks after the 10k - only managed to fit in 6 miles last week. 19 miles so far this week, though and 18:32 at the Parkrun today - minor PB.

    Still really want to make it to sub18 this year though, so I'm going to try running some shorter, faster intervals with a view to getting more accustomed to sub6 pace.

    Don't know the ladies involved in the 50k, but it all sounds very impressive!
  • MYOX - Just as a general observation from your last post, you often see the default route to getting a 5k time to go and get stuck into some 'speed sessions'. 

    But I would do exactly the opposite, forget the speedwork and build some extra strength, 5k is very much about strength and endurance, not speed per se.

    The formula that gets good results for relative low time input is 2 x 4 mile runs per day. But all runs being slow, ie 8 min/mile+. There is logic behind this in that you maximise the production of Human Growth Hormone around 35-40 minutes into a run, hence 2 x 4 miles is more beneficial than a single 8 mile run in this respect.

    You can certainly run significantly sub 18 off no other training than this, on the proviso that you parkrun each week and add another race or two into the mix.


  • I was just going to say something similar to PRFMyox! I don't know anything about the production of Human Growth Hormone, but I agree that 5k is, indeed, not speed per se. I would try to get as many of the runs off-road as possible and add strength by including hilly routes. 2 x 4 miles a day does require some time management! If you can't parkrun each week I would include a similar substitution in terms of effort.

    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • Alehouse - you were asking about splits from the World 50k. These are the 5k splits for the GB ladies:

    Amy         - 20:41, 20:38, 20:19, 20:26, 20:30 (25k 1:42:34)

    Rebecca -  20:35, 20:20, 20:42, 20:28, 20:29 (25k 1:42:34)

    Sam.        - 20:41, 20:37, 20:19, 20:27, 20:30 (25k 1:42:34)

    Hannah    - 22:27, 22:00, 21:49, 21:47, 21:36 (25k 1:49:39)


    Amy         - 20:13, 20:22, 20:43, 21:02, 21:23 (50k 3:26:17) 3rd

    Rebecca  - 20:58, 21:33, 22:18, 23:26, 23:19 (50k 3:34:08) 5th

    Sam         - 21:04, 21:55, 23:12, 23:32, 23:19 (50k 3:35:36) 7th

    Hannah    - 21:32, 21:23, 21:25, 21:20, 20:38 (50k 3:35:57) 8th


  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    myox, well done on the pb. Another 11 seconds per mile of improvement might be a big ask, especially off recent training, with only 7 weeks left.

    I know plenty of people who do none of that type of training almost ever and perform very well at 5k. You might do some intervals closer to target race to sharpen up but it's the other training that will deliver the result. That's predominantly why I'm spending a couple of months running xc and hilly routes. 

  • MYOXMYOX ✭✭✭

    Thanks, chaps - I hear you loud and clear.

    PRF: I'll try to relax a bit and go for more slow 4-5 milers; I think perhaps I'm guilty of getting fixated on pace. I just felt yesterday that I unconsciously fell into 6 min mile pace because it feels 'fast' - I'm just not used to the feeling of running any faster, even though I do actually think that I could. We'll see, I guess!

    ale: All my runs are relatively hilly - I'm in Sheffield - and I basically try to run out of the city into the Peak as often as possible, so I'll continue doing that. I'm considering doing some proper hill repeats as well.

    DT: you're probably right, but I think I underperformed a bit on yesterday's run. I really wasn't feeling great - had that heavy, breathy feeling on my warm-up but decided to ignore it. The target is more of a challenge to get as fast as possible than a concrete aim. image

    Again, appreciate your thoughts. Starting to look forward to setting some proper targets for next year now!

  • Myox - The mantra to keep repeating to yourself is 'Slow down to speed up'. It worked wonders for Hannah mentioned above and it transformed Gladys Ganiel from being a good runner into a 12th place finisher in the Commonwealth Games marathon (and sub 2:40). There are many other examples too.......

  • I tell my runners, "Slow is the new fast!" Not that they always listen! 

    Thanks for the stats, PRF! Interesting reading. Difficult to make any judgments! The course was obviously too short for Hannah! Just getting going!

    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • She was the only one who had experienced a badly paced 50k, think of a badly paced marathon and multiply it a few times. So caution was always going to be employed, especially in the heat.

    Their resoective marathon PBs going into this were:

    Amy    2:40:11

    Rebecca  2:39:45

    Sam.   2:42:11

    Hannah.   2:50:07

    So although she was 4th in the team it was a cracking performance image 



  • Indeed, PRF : Hannah is now potentially in a different league! Exciting times!

    Myox: another saying is "Train heavy, race light", which I know PRF subscribes to. At this time of year it is at least three tops, tracksters and usually hat and gloves. I see people running in shorts and t-shirt, or even a vest: these are reserved for races!

    I also say, "Fast is the new slow"...danger of burn out or injury by hitting sessions too hard, and this certainly was the case for me in my twenties. And yes, I can just remember that far back!

    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • Morning all!

    Myox - it sounds like you have a good deal of natural ability and potential if you are able to run the times that you can off not much training at all (let alone structured training!). As others have said, there is much to be said for getting a really solid aerobic base from lots of slow running, then adding a period of speedier sessions in the run up to your next racing season/target races.

    Personally, I have had a bit of a 'back to basics' approach to training recently. Last two weeks have seen a slow return to mileage (12.5 two weeks ago, 14 last week). All easy paced (over 9m/m average) and actually broken into small chunks (eg. yesterday was 4x1mile with a 30 second or so walk and stretch in between each mile) so as to try and build up some aerobic base with as little risk of injury as possible. Obviously the aim over the coming weeks is to increase overall mileage a bit more but primarily to phase out the breaks and get back to running continuously. Slowly, slowly catchy monkey .... I hope!

  • MYOXMYOX ✭✭✭

    Hm. Well I just did 10 miles at 8:41 pace - consciously aiming for 'easy' - and I was ready to drop at the end of it! About 50% trail, and 900ft elevation, but still... It felt a fair bit harder than my normal 5-7 mile runs at under 8 min pace.

    I'll try some shorter runs at around 8 min pace this week to see how that feels. Perhaps I need to build up to the 10 mile mark a bit more slowly?




  • I'd stick at around the ten, Myox, if on similar terrain. You just about coped and it will get easier! I tend to ignore the watch on the long run and go by time on feet, knowing that I am working reasonably hard yet within myself. Currently re-building so it has been 60, 65, 70, 75 minutes and this week it is a cut back before probably resuming at 65 or 70 depending what the M71 I do my longer runs with wants to do!

    Article for PRF if he hasn't seen it:


    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • MYOXMYOX ✭✭✭
    Recovery 2.7 miles at 8min mile pace yesterday morning - felt very drained and a bit demotivated in the day. However, normal 6 miles this morning and felt pretty sharp. Kept at near the 8min mile pace for most of it, but included a short burst at 4:30 pace. Fun times! Strava gives me a 400m time of 1:07 - quite pleased with that after 5 miles!

    Anyone run by HR? Is it at all worthwhile? All this stuff I'm calling 'steady' is coming out at about 160 - though sometimes higher on the uphill - and max HR is 194. I'm thinking that on my proper easy recoveries I might need to be going even slower. image
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    myox, I don't run by hr strictly but know where it should be for the intensity I want. My max is similar to yours based on the highest I've seen in a race and I work as follows-

    Recovery run 135-140

    Easy- 140-155 (8mm will come in around 145)

    Mara pace/steady-155- low 160s 

    It runs - High 160s- 170

    Yesterday I did 5 at mp which came out 162 for 6.46mm. My average HR in Saturday's xc was 179. 

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    HR training can be good if you want to learn what easy pace really is. I always wear my monitor but these days it is just for recording in my log rather than determining effort.

    I did 4 x 5 miles as part of last week's run commutes and then 13.6 miles at MP on Sunday. The other 6 commute legs were on the bike. This week was the official start of a 12 week block leading up to Dewsbury 10K.Yesterday was 6.6 miels with 8x400m intervals off 400m recoveries.

    Plan is about 35 miles running and 40 miles bike (recovery/aerobic).

    Mon: 2 x bike commute
    Tue: 2 x bike commute & intervals (5-6 miles based on FIRST 10K programme)
    Wed: 2 x bike commute
    Thur: 2 x run commutes (10 miles total, one easy and other tempo)
    Fri: 2 x bike commute
    Sat: parkrun (5 miles inc warm up)
    Sun: 13.6 miles long run

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    Anyone home? image

    Week 1 went OK. Intervals as reported above, and I did the rest of the according to the plan, except that the double run-commute was all easy and the long run ended up as 12.4 miles, due to it getting dark while I was on the tow-path (so went home a different/shorter route). Saturday's parkrun came out as 20:36, the fastest of the 5 I've done since August's sub-20, which was interesting given I had taken on no carbohydrate for 2 weeks. I expected to fat-adapt at MP but am surprised that 6:37/m was still possible.

  • I am still plodding along trying to build up mileage. Since my last post I managed 14.5 miles last week and the plan is for 16 this week. As I said above, baby steps.

    Sounds like you still maintain a good underlying level of race pace DD - something not to be sniffed at. Interesting you are doing a 12 week 10k training block through the depths of winter when most are base-building/recovering - if all goes to plan you could steal a march on a lot of the field in the 10k race itself as a result!

  • So, National Masters' relays: first race 12:15 for the female age groups plus  M65s. My race was 1:45, so plenty of time to get too tired beforehand! Was quite sensible and had a good chat with a few people, the first person I bumped into being BR (formerly, of this thread) and then shortly afterwards Hilly (ditto)! And not long after that LMH (from the daily thread) appeared, meeting up for the first time. It was a little chilly for standing around watching though!

    So, around 1:30 a final visit to the loo and then off to warm up. The course was 3.1k, all on grass except for a short section of mud. Couldn't have been much flatter, and remarkably dry: if it had been around here it would have been under water! Ran one lap gently as a warm up, then a few stretches, into my racing kit and almost time to get on with it.

    We didn't have the greatest team out and our predominantly M60 team was running alongside the M35s and M45s: nevertheless it was a bit of a surprise when our first leg runner came in last but one, and the second came in last, so plenty for me to chase on leg 3...except by then there were some pretty big gaps. Set off fairly hard and went through the first k in around 4:10, passing one runner. The next k was a bit slower as this included a twisting section followed by a mud stretch. The next 1.1k were predominantly into the wind, but worked hard and passed two more, eventually clocking 13:08 or thereabouts: 4:15ks on average which I have to be pleased with on grass. I would, of course, have run sub 13 had I been half a stone lighter.

    Lungs hurt at the time, but the next day the only sign of having raced was a slightly strained stomach, as in that feeling when you have done a couple too many sit ups.

    Had a good chat with Hilly about strength and flexibility and we both agreed that we are missing out on that aspect too much, and both vowed to make a bit more effort with that regard. 

    Keep up the baby steps, AD!

    And all sounds good, Dan.

    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • Just finished my 2016k in 2016! 

    2016k was completed on the 328th day of the year. All 328 days run. Average 6.15k per day.

    I think a challenge like this would benefit a few on here! AD?!

    2017k would work out at around 5.5k a day, or 38.6k a week, which is around 24 miles a week. Almost 63 I expect to achieve this, so shouldn't be a big ask for you young ones. Too easy for some, of course, so their challenge should be 2017miles!

    AD: did you find the Eilish MColgan exercises that I mentioned that were in Athletics Weekly?

    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • Alehouse - I had a look on their website on the day of your suggestion but couldn't find them (maybe too soon - perhaps they only load the magazine articles to their website a few days/weeks after the magazine publication?). I'll take another look.

    2017k should in theory be doable, so long as no significant injuries are encountered. I simply cannot run more than 4 (sometimes 5) days a week due to mine and my wife's work patterns and the subsequent demand to be at home on certain days to look after our daughter though. I did just over 1000 miles (so about 1625k) in 2015 so I know I can run reasonable amounts in a year, it is just that 2016 has proved a harder nut to crack!


  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    Alehouse - nice work at the National masters! And great streaking/kilometre-age!

    Andrew - Alehouse has thrown down the gauntlet!image

    Usual daily cycling thsi week (Monday night was terrible ... needed a boat!). Tuesday was 6.1 miles with 5x800m (400m recs) which I averaged at 6:25/mile and 88% maxHR.Tomorrow is double run-commute day, so 2 x 5 miles. Might miss parkrun on Saturday due to clash but, if so, I'll add some MP to Sunday's long run.


  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    Double run-commute day on Thursday went to plan ... then did an extra 5 miler straight after my commute home on Friday. No parkrun but I did 15 hilly miles at 75% maxHR early doors on Sunday to bring up 36 miles for the week (felt very easy!). So three solid weeks (103 miles run, 120 miles bike), all on very low carb intake.

  • Morning

    Nice training Dr Danimage

    12 miles for me this morning pretty hilly but knocked 2 mins off saturday's run which was the same route. 12 is my long run and ran it twice last week-yayimage

    Live each day as if it was your last  give it all you have to reap the rewards.
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