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  • PadamsPadams ✭✭✭

    One of the times I did Barca, the weather was perfect for the race but then it snowed the next morning! We flew home just before they closed the airport for a while. Apparently it's very rare to get snow in Barcelona (especially in March), and they didn't seem to be coping with it too well!

    5M at lunchtime yesterday, then 5M with the dog this morning before having a daddy daycare morning with mini-Padams (Mrs was busy and I have a load of holiday to use up before the end of the year).

  • PadamsPadams ✭✭✭

    Quiet on here!

    Did 6M with the dog this morning. In an attempt to tire her out, I picked up the pace after the first mile, so splits were about 8:40 (lots of stopping for obvious reasons), 7:20, 6:45, 6:35, 6:30 and even those had some stopping to sniff things, drink from a puddle etc. Then eased off for the last mile in 7:20. Worryingly she still didn't seem particularly tired by the end, so I'm going to need to get faster!

  • Seems like Spanish marathons are very popular around here!

    TT, sorry to hear the XC didn't go as hoped. Better and stronger next time!

    I decided to put SL/Padams treadmill theory to the test yesterday. That wasn't the primary reason I jumped on the TM, that was because my Garmin had died and I wanted to do an interval session. Since I don't have a measured loop, I rely on the Garmin to measure the intervals. Anyway, the treadmill theory certainly stands up qualitatively. Running at 8min/mi seems like it's a bit more effort that it ought to be, whereas at the top end, I found I had to keep increasing the speed of the intervals in order to hit an appropriate effort level. So 8x800m starting with 2:55 per 800 and finishing at 2:44 per 800. I'm fairly sure I couldn't have hit that last pace outside!

  • (*pictures Padams sniffing things and drinking from puddles...*)

    SL - Monster treddy session! You must've been sweating like a sweaty thing!

    ES - Another impressive use of the treddy. I've not run any quicker than about HM pace on it so I reckon you've done well just to stay in control.

    I remember reading the blog of some elite/semi-elite (quicker than me, anyway) runner who swore by doing proper speed work on the treadmill because the ability to hit greater speed for the same effort was good for quick leg turnover.  Sounds reasonable.

    Spent a lot of Sunday and Monday celebrating with MsP, lots of nice food and booze, although she insisted on a nice 5 mile run on Monday morning. Machine! Then yesterday I continued the MP + intervals theme, 5M easy in the morning then 2M @ MP (5:38/5:39) followed by 8 x 1k at the track, except I was too busy chatting so missed the start; 800m + 7 x 1k then, with the km reps averaging 3:15. Legs felt a little less fresh than last week, but I was still pleased with the paces after the double-race weekend.

  • Very good interval session there PP, you've put my performance in the shade! The celebrations were richly deserved too.

    I think one of the benefits of the treadmill for speed sessions is the constant speed, for those of us without in-built metronomes. I tend to find that outside, I end up running early reps too quickly, getting tired, slowing down a bit for the middle reps, and then picking it up a bit at the end. Whereas with the TM, you get that constant effect, and a slowly building sense of fatigue. I dunno, perhaps I'd get the same effect if I just did my reps at a track in a group instead of on the roads on my own!

  • Huge congrats to MsP -- and smaller but significant ones on your podium PP! Impressive to do that after a 21M bike and the race the day before.

    Well raced too CD, RB and Padams (always on nonchalantly excellent form it seems).

    SL -- amazing stuff again. ES/Padams -- an equation aye, but only an empirical one, we can do betterimage. Your power output P will be something like some (uknown) mix of "rolling" resistance, let's say proportional to velocity v, and aerodynamic drag proportional to v cubed (drag force gives you v^2, overcoming it at speed v gives you v^3 overall):

    P = k1 . v + k2 . v^3

    (k2 will be some product of cross-sectional area, form drag coefficient, air density, viscosity etc; k1 will depend on your running economy and weight, etc)

    Jogging at 5 mph, drag will be negligible. For a sprinter doing 20 mph, it will be very strong. On the treadmill, you just lose the drag term altogether, so for a given power output (i.e. effort), you'll reach a higher 'v', and that will be more significant the faster you are going:

    k1 . v(outdoors) + k2 . v(outdoors)^3 = k1 . v(treadmill)

    Hence if you were managing v(outdoors) previously, on the treadmill you should achieve

    v(treadmill) = v(outdoors) + k2/k1 . v(outdoors)^3

    Alternatively just run to the same HR and report back to us image

    Did some fast miles in my long run on Sunday (first 20 for ages), trudged a lot of overdressed miles yesterday (total 21), day off today with the car needing an MoT...

  • Afternoon, all.

    I am alive and well, just been a bit busy.  However, made it down to club session last night for 6 x 0.55M.  Great fun to be running around random bits of a field in the dark again!  Calves are shot this morning, as I also raced XC on Saturday so it's rather a lot of running in spikes after a very long time not running in spikes.

  • PadamsPadams ✭✭✭

    CW - very good, but does not seem to stack up in reality as slow paces seem harder on the treadmill than outdoors (and both k1 and k2 must be non-negative). Maybe you just need another constant addition to your equation - I don't know what it represents though (boredom factor of running on a treadmill?).

    Jools - good to see you still do unusual interval distances.

  • Nice LR CW. Can you remind me what you're overdressing for??

    Nice one Jools.

    Anyone got their VMLM 2017 champs confirmation yet?  I'm #1114.  (4 digits!)

  • Dan ADan A ✭✭✭

    PP - I did it as soon as the reminder email was sent on Monday (before they change the goalposts and realise they're letting anyone in these days!!).  #1078.  Saw on Fetch that some of the sub 2h45 thread got in the moment it opened and had numbers #10xx.  Think they must have started at 1000.

    CW - Nope.  Didn't get any of that. image

  • Padams, I think Einstein called his the cosmological constant!



    10M MLR which felt better than expected after yesterday's speed sesh.
  • HH

    Thought I'd share this. A good friend, and genuinely one of the nicest people in our sport.

    http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/get-inspired/37895221
  • Nice piece RB - thanks for sharing.

    If you think you can or you think you can't you're probably right.
  • HA77HA77 ✭✭✭

    Hi everyone. I lurk on here to see what proper runners do but never post. I'm just after some expert opinions.

    I've starting building up for the London marathon. Last year I followed a P&D plan, usually doing about 70mpw, with the biggest couple of weeks at 85mpw. However with the arrival of a 3rd child 4 months ago I'm not willing to put in as much time. I'm especially struggling to get in any proper long runs. 

    As a substitute I've been doing a long day on Wednesday consisting of 8-9 miles at lunch (sometimes with a few MP miles in there when we have our work handicap race), then running to my club track session in the evening (3 miles each way plus session ~ 11-13 miles total), so about 20-22 miles for the day. I've done this twice so far and feel tired but ok afterwards. I take it quite easy in the track sessions (10x800s last week done at MP with 1 min jog recovery).

    I generally do one other hard day in the week - usually a 10ish mile tempo/progression/fartlek or a XC race. Other runs are shortish and easy, with a couple of sets of strides thrown in each week. Generally I'll be looking at about 50-60mpw. I'll try to set a more structured plan in the 12 weeks leading into London, with some proper long runs.

    Any opinions or thoughts, especially about the long day on Wednesday would be really appreciated. Thanks.

  • HH

    LMH - I should also point out that both she and her husband are clubmates of AlanB.

    Welcome HA77 - it would be helpful if you could let us know what times you are currently running for 10k, HM, marathon, etc.

  • HA77 - definitely not a 'proper runner' but I post on here. Not sure what you're asking really? I don't think the long day on Wednesday will give the same benefit as a continuous long run but it's more than the midweek long run that most would recommend.

    If you think you can or you think you can't you're probably right.
  • HA77HA77 ✭✭✭

    Cheers for the replies.

    RB - I ran 2:40:01 last year in Manchester so hoping to go under 2:40, unsure whether it's realistic with lower mileage but will reassess with a couple of HMs closer to the date (Wokingham and Fleet). Ran 1:14 in Wokingham last year. 

    LMH - Just reread my post and I didn't really make it clear. I know it's not going to be the same as a continuous run but I'm just seeing if anyone had an opinion how to get the best out of those long days or if anyone has substituted a single long run with 2 medium longish runs in one day.

  • HA77 - you can get away with a lower weekly mileage but I don't think there's really a substitute for the long runs.  That said, you don't need to be getting to 20+ milers until closer to your marathon, well into the new year and you don't need to do them every week.  What you're doing now will certainly be a good base for when you're able to lengthen the runs - I've done plenty of weeks with a 6 or 7 lunchtime miles followed by an evening track session and it certainly helps.

    Oh, and if you can run 74 at Wokingham then something under 2:40 shouldn't be an issue.  But you need the endurance.

  • Padams -- my lack of treadmill experience shows through! I'm more at the "take a spherical cow in a vacuum" stage here.

    PP -- I'm still doing a bit of overdressing because apparently heat acclimatisation boosts one's performance even in cool conditions. I haven't got a warm-weather event coming up (just a couple of local half marathons, which will no doubt be freezing).

    Shocked by the 4-digit championship numbers (I always entered early enough to get a 3-digit one previously). What about women -- they previously got a separate block (250-600 or something)?

    HA77 -- welcome! From first principles, I suppose I'd say a big benefit of the long run is getting glycogen-depleted and so shifting towards fat metabolism. Hence to get the same benefit in a lunch + evening combo, you should avoid consuming too many carbs in between the two. I rack up a lot of "invisible" miles by run-commuting, but that only fits if you're working and not too far from home.

  • #1148.  It's an outrage.  Probably down to Brexit.

  • I reckon they have started at the top and are working their way down this year. I'm 491 and am usually around 200. image

  • Sorry to interrupt..........

    What I believe you are missing with your treadmill equation is the fact that the belt is moving and during  the contact time of your feet and belt they are being pushed backwards.  Road running, you are pushing the ground backwards and your weight forwards, this does not happen on a treadmill. A slower moving belt = less effect, so not much difference at lower speeds but significant at higher speeds. 

  • PadamsPadams ✭✭✭

    When I'm running outside the ground is moving underneath me exactly as the belt is on a treadmill, so I don't think this makes a lot of difference (just need to change the frame of reference). When your foot hits the ground it should automatically move backwards, and you apply some force forwards to accelerate (just like on a treadmill, to stop yourself getting pushed off the back). Might be some second order effect to do with the torque of the motor or something.

    Getting the car serviced today so had to run to work from there - about 8.5M plus a couple of miles with the dog before I left. Mainly offroad and with a rucksack, so not fast but a good bit of endurance.

  • Summed up by someone else better than me. And don't worry I won't gate crash the thread anymore. This was just something I have studied in the past. 

    "running on an accelerated motorized treadmill is mechanically different from accelerated running overground. Overground, the subject has to enlarge the net anterior–posterior force impulse proportional to acceleration in order to overcome linear whole body inertia, whereas on a treadmill, this force impulse remains zero, regardless of belt acceleration. Therefore, it can be expected that changes in kinematics and joint kinetics of the human body also are proportional to acceleration overground, whereas no changes according to belt acceleration are expected on a treadmill"

  • LS21LS21 ✭✭✭
    **stares at screen**



    2 weeks away and you need a Nobel Prize in Physics to understand anyone's posts.



    1161 here by the way.
  • WardiWardi ✭✭✭

    Admirable formula work Charlie!  Though if I may scientifically paraphrase TR it is perhaps easier to simply put each dorsum & plantar in front of each other as often as possible.  This ensures that you do the locomotion. image

    At the end of my last post I did say 'never a dull moment here' in reference to my home town.  Arrived back in town around 6.30pm on Tuesday to find this scene at the crossroads about 40 metres from my house..

    http://www.minsterfm.com/news/local/2152247/latest---bus-and-truck-involved-in-crash-in-tadcaster/

    Apparently Kate Adie is on her way, more action here than her current location image 

    All the best for Sunday Dan A, hope you have a stormer in your favourite marathon country.

  • Impressive racing & training sessions going on. Congratulations to PP, MsPP, Padams & ES for their trophies.

    Enjoyed the treadmill debate. Sorry CW preferred the Padams TM Equation as it's far simpler so applying Occam's Razor probably more accurate too.

    Glad I decided to be patient & wait til spring for my next marathon attempt as the weather last weekend was poor & I was poorlier. Guts this time.

    Gone back to endurance building. Managed 65M last week without a Sunday LR as Saturday's XC destroyed me due to the aforementioned guts. I've done 40 so far this week. Got a 10M road race this Saturday in the hills of mid-Wales so it'll be a very light day tomorrow.

    Good luck to anyone else racing.

  • PadamsPadams ✭✭✭

    Blimey Wardi, you must dread coming home to find another major incident outside your house!

    I'll take scottles' word for the treadmill thing as I don't really understand it in that level of detail. Anyway, it doesn't really matter, it's just a way of doing some training indoors. Obviously it does matter if you're trying to break a treadmill WR...

  • Flipping heck Wardi!

    Nice treadie session ES.

    And another good session from PP. You make me slightly worried that you're doing those kind of things this far out and I could probably just about squeeze out 1 or 2 reps at that pace. Hopefully going to have a track group shortly (every second Friday for me) that will force me to put a bit of effort in.

    Good read RB.

    HA77 - I was short on time this week and had some stuff come up, so my planned 16 was a 9/7 split with an hour between. I don't mind doing stuff like that this far out (but would rather be doing proper long runs). What you've done is not dissimilar to some of the Canova double day workouts, so a good use of the time as long as you recover ok. Obviously, as you've acknowledged, it's no substitute for long runs, but for now a double workout seems like a good use of the day to me.

    Feeling a little stronger week on week. Last week by Thursday I'd run 59m and felt shattered with massive DOMS, whereas this week I'd hit 61m and felt tired, but no DOMS. I've done a little less quality so far but it should roughly balance out by Saturday.

    My club has put together a calendar in support of our charity for this year (Sport In Mind), which is different to the usual - think of the movie Calendar Girls............
    All tastefully done (ish image ), and, tbh, it was a riot doing it. Taking pre-orders now here if any of you would like to donate (min £8 per calendar, though you can also donate not to receive oneimage ): www.justgiving.com/RRRcalendar

  • HA77HA77 ✭✭✭

    Cheers for the feedback Dave, Charlie and TT. Glad to know it's not such a stupid idea after all, even if it isn't a replacement for a proper long run. Searching Canova double day workouts has given me some good ideas and info as well. I think you're right TT that I'll need to be careful with recovery afterwards.

    I'm #1088.

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