Sub 3

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  • Very impressive Steve.  These days not many start running marathons as young as you did, so it might just be you and Antonio Arreola duking it out at the top of that list for a while.

    Further down, 18 years between sub 2:15 marathons is just astonishing.

  • PadamsPadams ✭✭✭
    Hilly - good to see you posting again!

    Steve - very impressive, gives me a long-term target! I need to run a sub-3 in 2046 (aged 65) to beat you, and I expect the record will have been beaten by then as well.

    CD - Samuelson's records aren't bad either!

    Didn't run Monday/Tuesday as previously mentioned, but got out at lunchtime today for 6M inc. 4 laps around the lake (1200m) going from 4:30 to 4:10 (3M in 17:30ish).
  • HillyHilly ✭✭✭
    Charlie - it certainly is very painful.  I run through it, but it's reducing my stride!  Interesting new "5-2 diet".  I quite like the idea of packing in the miles and having 2 days off!  Both BR and I struggle to recover and do any quality runs, so it might be worth thinking about.  Although neither of us are getting that sort of mileage at present.  I'm only averaging about 50, which is unsatisfactory for the marathon really, but work etc. just leaves me too tired for more.  For me it's been more about getting some consistent mileage this year without getting injured (ignoring the fact I now have sciatica...).  I guess each year of age brings a new managing the niggles campaign.   :D


    Steve Marathon Coach - that's a fantastic achievement.  What do you put down to your longevity with sub 3 marathons?
  • Thanks. Longetivity is a mixture of luck and determination. Luck that despite 40 years of marathoning, all my joints are good and that no one else had done 40 yet - Looks like Arreola is running better than me and sharper but only runs one marathon a year and is slightly younger but started a few months after me. Once I knew I could set the 40 years, the determination came in and I upped my training, lost weight and did everything I could to try and stay injury free - more running on grass than road.
    I expect a few on that list might attempt an extension at Boston. Someone asked me for my five year age group bests and I have definitely lost a little speed but at next year's London I hit the 60s, so should have another target and motivation and then in 2020, it's the sub-3 in six different decades target which I reckon 3 or 4 might manage. Chris Finill is favourite.                                                                                                
    First marathon: Harlow 1976: 2:54:42
    Best as Under-20: Barnsley 1977: 2:41:35
    Under-25: London 1981: 2:29:42
    Under-30: London 1985: 2:35:02
    Under-35: London 1988: 2:38:15
    M35+: London 1994: 2:44:21
    M40+: Austin 2003: 2:42:10
    M45+: London 2006: 2:43:53
    M50+: London 2008: 2:43:40
    M55+: Seville 2017: 2:56:16
  • Sorry for jumping in peeps, I ran with Dan A whilst he was dressed as Elvis in London a couple of years ago and ran 2:55:02 last year in London aged 54. I also hope to get to the start line this year in the same sort of shape.
    Steve Marathon Coach congratulations on the 2:56:21 and a great achievement over the past 40 years the article was very interesting can I ask what sort of milage did you do a week? For the past four or five years my milage has topped out around 70/80 mile weeks with a cut back week every fourth week.
  • Dan ADan A ✭✭✭
    That is an amazing achievement Steve.  Enjoyed reading about it on AW.  What does your training look like compared to your sub 2h30 days.  Do you train as hard or often as 10/20 years ago?

    It's 17 years since my first marathon.  PB was 2 years ago, but I'm having to work increasingly hard each year to stay in similar shape as the year before.  Want to be sub 3 at 50 (still got 6 more years before that though).
  • Congratulations Steve - another fine achievement and an inspiration. Also very interested in your training\ diet tips etc which maintains such performances
  • Thanks. I did 80-85 mpw for this one but probably 20 of it was junk - ie jogging to gym. Averaged 20 on sunday, track session every Tuesday, grass session Thursday and parkrun or XC race every saturday. I did 100mpw for the 2:29. 3 gym sessions a week stretching, light weights, core and strengthening calf etc. lost weight by cutting fats and sugars down and did as little as possible on the road. My speed isn't what it was. I could have possibly broken 17 for 5km when I was aged 50-52 and in low 2:40 shape. I now have to work hard to break 19. I think 2:54 is possible based on Saturday but to get quicker I would have to be 30 seconds faster at 5km.
  • Steve Marathon Coach Congratulations once again and thank you for the insight into your training. 
  • Amazing Steve.

    Still limping here - how long until I give up my faster at fifty London goal?
    If you think you can or you think you can't you're probably right.
  • Steve: congratulations - impressive consistency across so many years. I saw your story come up via an AW link on facebook. Were you unusual in the 70s starting marathons as young as you did, certainly not many 18 year olds running marathons today.

    Hilly: welcome back, glad you and BR are still enjoying running. I bought and enjoyed one of BR's books last year.

    LMH: sorry to hear about the collision and subsequent woes.

    Ticking over here, although this is a marathon forum I'm glad to not be doing any marathon training currently, I find a long run of 15-16 miles much easier both mentally and in terms of recovery than 20+, even though the difference isn't so great.
  • HillyHilly ✭✭✭
    That's some track record Steve.  Do you feel it's important to do short distance speed sessions as you get older?  I'm finding that my stride length has decreased quite a lot in the last few years.  I've never really done many track sessions, apart from when I was in sub 3 shape, but those sessions weren't any shorter than 400s.  I've decided this year to do some shorter faster sessions for the first time ever.  Did the first one last night, although had to stop early due to having an issue with my sciatic nerve.  Really enjoyed the bit I did though and am hoping it will support my distance running.

    LMH - I don't think you'll lose too much in a few weeks especially if you were in good shape before the accident.  Finger crossed you'll be back out there soon!

    Piscator - Thanks, yes we're still enjoying our running, but both had a few issues in the last 3 years.  BR is very busy with other things, like writing books (glad you enjoyed it) but he still trains and races occasionally, mainly club relays and the odd 10k.  He might do a marathon this spring, he's just seeing how the training is going and then he'll chose one that gives him a realistic chance of going sub 3.  :)   Agreed long runs of 16 miles are easier mentally! 

    That weather today is horrendous!  Making use of gym membership... :)
  • Piscator, yes I was unusually young - actually too young but don't think entry form asked for dob. Back in 1976 every marathoner was a male club runner (mostly men in 30s) and you finished in second half of field if you couldn't run mid 2:50s!
    Hilly, re track, not sure they are necessary. With me it's just habit and I organise our club track sessions at Crystal Palace. We tend to do 400s, 800s, 1000s, 1600s, 2000/200s on successive weeks. I do like having pace in my legs for marathons and shorter races though. However, the pace in the 2:56 (ie 20:05 5k from 20 to 25k) was too similar to my current 5k race pace which shows good endurance and poor speed.
  • Congrats Steve, fantastic achievement.  Very inspiring, not least insofar as I would absolutely love to match your pb at London this year!

    I'm not out of the woods just yet w.r.t Achilles. Easy runs 15 Sunday, then 5 + 10 Monday, 5 Tuesday morning, all felt fine, but 3M @ 5:39/m on the track Tuesday evening, whilst reasonably comfortable, did bring a minor niggle sensation, so I played it cautious and skipped the main 10 x 600 session.  Just some easy cycling yesterday, and today I thought I'd try something different; inspired by a similarly semi-injured club mate who is getting a lot of treadmill miles in at the moment, I did 8 miles @ 5:42/m (16.9 kph) on the treddy this afternoon.  Aerobically it felt a lot easier than I was expecting. I was stiffening up towards the end, but Achilles felt fine, more comfortable than on the track, so depending on how it feels tomorrow morning, this could be a fall-back session if I'm unsure about pushing hard sessions on the track or the tarmac.  Another couple of miles would've been more than manageable.

    So just a bike ride or very easy run planned for tomorrow. I'm hopeful of getting round the National XC on Saturday depending how that goes, but play it by ear as usual.  Anyone else in Nottingham for the weekend?
  • Hope the achilles stands up Phil. I'm doing the Athletics Weekly reporting so at Nottingham and then off to Sheffield for under-20 indoors the next day so not much running this weekend. 
    RW USA have covered the span thing..http://www.runnersworld.com/general-interest/man-sets-world-record-for-sub-3-hour-marathons
    the old photo is from Poly 1978 and Mike McGeoch sent me full result yesterday - nb halfway down field was 2:53 and only 1 runner slower than 4 hours!
    1978 
    A loop course in Windsor to Windsor,Slough & Eton AC stadium at Vansittart Road
    337 men/11 women entered. 243 men/6 women started. 220 men/5 women finished
     2:19:05     (1)   Dave Francis (Westbury)              12 Apr 1947 10 Jun 1978  Windsor ENG
     2:21:44     (2)   W Bill Domoney (Sheffield)           23 Jan 1951 10 Jun 1978  Windsor ENG
     2:22:31     (3)   Rab Heron (Brighton)                 14 Dec 1947 10 Jun 1978  Windsor ENG 
     2:23:14     (4)   Dave Collins (Plymouth)              13 Apr 1945 10 Jun 1978  Windsor ENG 
     2:23:27     (5)   Derek Pratt (Sheffield)              06 Aug 1947 10 Jun 1978  Windsor ENG 
     2:23:45     (6)   K W Colburn (Santa Monica Track/USA)             10 Jun 1978  Windsor ENG
     2:25:15     (7)   Brian Lamkin (Windsor Slough & Eton) 18 Jun 1947 10 Jun 1978  Windsor ENG
     2:26:11     (8)   Colin Moxsom (Haringey AC)           20 May 1947 10 Jun 1978  Windsor ENG
     2:26:22     (9)   Martin R J Knapp (Invicta AC)        08 Aug 1952 10 Jun 1978  Windsor ENG
     2:26:43     (10)  Joe A Keating (Ealing & Southall AC) 19 Nov 1948 10 Jun 1978  Windsor ENG
     2:27:04     (11)  W "Bill" Weller (Belgrave H)         06 Oct 1946 10 Jun 1978  Windsor ENG
     2:27:19     (12)  Malcolm Mountford (Stafford AC)      18 Apr 1955 10 Jun 1978  Windsor ENG
     2:27:50     (13)  Tom E Roden (SLH)                    09 Oct 1946 10 Jun 1978  Windsor ENG
     2:28:10     (14)  Dave A Hardstaff (North London AC) 26 Mar 1951 10 Jun 1978  Windsor ENG
     2:28:38     (15)  Martin J Duff(Windsor Slough & Eton) 30 Mar 1944 10 Jun 1978  Windsor ENG
     2:29:17     (16)  Guy G Ogden (Highgate)        02 Jan 1944 10 Jun 1978  Windsor ENG
     2:30:01     (17)  George Wood (Cambridge H)                        10 Jun 1978  Windsor ENG
     2:30:24     (18)  Ian Burgess (Southampton AC)        23 Dec 1948 10 Jun 1978  Windsor ENG
     2:31:48     (19)  John Jones (Windsor Slough & Eton)   19 Aug 1944 10 Jun 1978  Windsor ENG
     2:32:05     (20)  Barry E Nash (Dartford H)            15 Apr 1942 10 Jun 1978  Windsor ENG
     2:32:49     (21)  W "Bill" McKim (Thetford AC)         01 Oct 1941 10 Jun 1978  Windsor ENG
     2:32:59     (22)  Ed Phillips (City of Plymouth AC)    19 Aug 1946 10 Jun 1978  Windsor ENG
     2:33:02     (23)  Roger Friend (Dartford H)                        10 Jun 1978  Windsor ENG
     2:33:23     (24)  Gordon Mcllroy (Cardiff AAC)         22 Jun 1941 10 Jun 1978  Windsor ENG
     2:33:25     (25)  Bob R Roath (Walton AC)              27 May 1933 10 Jun 1978  Windsor ENG
     2:33:30     (26)  Dave Roberts (Swansea H)             05 Jun 1948 10 Jun 1978  Windsor ENG
     2:33:54     (27)  Guy De Boursac (Ranelagh H)                      10 Jun 1978  Windsor ENG
     2:33:59     (28)  Peter J Francis (Walton AC)                      10 Jun 1978  Windsor ENG
     2:34:03     (29)  John Geoghegan (Cambridge H)                     10 Jun 1978  Windsor ENG
     2:34:06     (30)  Steve Smythe (Cambridge H)           18 Mar 1958 10 Jun 
     2:45:02     (70)  Dave Bedford (Shaftesbury H)        30 Dec 1949 10 Jun 1978  Windsor ENG
     2:52:27     (101) Cliff G Temple (Folkestone AC)              1947 10 Jun 1978  Windsor ENG

  • Dan ADan A ✭✭✭
    Good scalp to beat Dave Bedford in the 70's. 

    Interesting list of 5 decade sub 3-ers, as it contains a few Olympians inc. Joan Benoit. 

    Braved Doris for a couple of runs today (4th double of the week). One of our garden chairs blew over. We will rebuild!
  • WardiWardi ✭✭✭
    Congratulations Steve, putting a brake on old age decline is quite an achievement!  As Hilly was asking, I too was wondering how you cope with circa 80mpw at age 59 - I found recovery seems to shorten rapidly between age 50-60.  If I do any more than 60-65mpw I end up running on constantly tired legs. 
  • PadamsPadams ✭✭✭
    Interesting to hear ideas on how to achieve longevity as I'm very keen to still be running in 30 years time.

    I ran to and from work yesterday, unfortunately timed the run in with the worst of the rain and was properly soaked by the time I got to work. I then had to put on soggy shoes and socks for the run home! 9M total for the day. Then 4M this morning with the dog.

    Have organised a run with some clubmates tomorrow morning - about 17M virtually all off-road to a cafe for coffee/cake (meeting Mrs Padams there and then getting a lift back). It should be fairly slow so I'm hoping my lack of miles won't be a problem. Unfortunately it's uphill overall as well, finishing at a spot which is very nearly the highest point in Hertfordshire!
  • That's quite a career, Steve, well done! My marathon career spans ~34 years now, but that's counting a very slow one I jogged round with my Mum when I was 13... next one not until I was 39.

    Hilly -- I don't know about you but my piriformis-related sciatica sometimes gave me a rubbery-feeling leg; it wasn't responding to nerve commands correctly. Had me staggering slightly as if drunk sometimes! Hope you manage to rid yourself of it quickly.

    Good (continuing) luck with the achilles, PP. After all those pacing duties it would be miserable if you can't really race VLM this year.

    I'm still 3 years of 50 but like Wardi I end up running on constantly tired legs if I train in any volume (hence my 5 on/2 off day experiment) -- I finished my 5 day streak last night with a "minimal" 100M exactly this time. My legs were pretty wrecked, but storm Doris gave me a helping hand getting home. Rest today as planned (other than my bike commute).
  • The frustrating thing about the latest injury is that otherwise the ramp up in mileage I started in January was feeling very manageable, and a couple of back-to-back 90+ mile weeks didn't leave me feeling tired at all.  On the other hand, both feet/ankles tend to feel a little achy, especially in the morning, so as I get closer to 50 than 40 I guess my tendons are only going to get less flexible.  Ah well, there's always cycling...   :)

    ...Achilles felt pretty good this morning after yesterday's treadmill tempo run, but since I'm planning on XC + long run weekend, I decided to stick to the bike today, 32 miles, all very pleasant.
  • I bet I'm nearer to 50 than you are PP and I can handle the mileage but any quality tends to break me.
    If you think you can or you think you can't you're probably right.
  • WardiWardi ✭✭✭

    The latest charming translation from the Barca Marathon people.  I think it means you can get a free taxi to the pools after the race.  If my eyes are bigger than the engine will I still need to take it??

    Because after it, the 42,195 km of Zurich marathon Barcelona what you want is a shower, a service to transfer from av rivers streets I (Box) you portaràn picornell in pools to cool You. Essential bring the engine.

    Padams.. I reckon the prospect of cake & coffee should help you through the miles and uphills!

    LMH.. hope you start to make steady improvements soon & fingers crossed for PP too. 

  • Wardi - I wasn't sure if I could cope with that sort of mileage. I started off at 60 and then got it 70 and then 80 - I even did a 95 and had to resist going out for a 5 on Sunday pm. I was still doing one track, one grass session and one xc race or parkrun every week and some faster long runs - best was 18 plus at sub-7s with probably second half averaging 6:40s which gave me confidence to know I could do the sub-3.
    However, the quality overall was nothing like the 100mpw I did in my peak and this year consisted of quite a bit of easy 3M to gym and back but it seemed to work overall. Despite the years on the clock, I seemed to recover.
  • HillyHilly ✭✭✭
    Charlie - yes often get a rubbery-feeling leg.  It just feels weak and I can't lift it as well as the other leg.  Recent problem is I can't stride out properly so having to keep my stride short to limit discomfort.  Hopefully with stretching and massage it'll sort itself out in time for the marathon. :)

    Hope the xc went well PP!

    I like to think I could cope with over 70 miles if I didn't have to work.  When on holiday I can do 70s and recover okay.  Probably because I'm eating, hydrating and resting better than when at work.  Just need to retire early...:D

    Thinking of doing a 20 mile race tomorrow.  Conditions not great and a 3 hour drive to get there, but quite fancy something different and looking for a confidence boost.  Don't plan on racing it, but would like to do 10 steady and 10 at marathon effort.
  • Hi all. I'm dipping back in after a week away at a conference in Berlin.

    Sorry to hear about injury woes, Hilly, PP and especially LMH. Don't give up on being faster at fifty yet.

    Steve - amazing and inspiring stuff.

    So... Berlin... I did manage to get some running in but had to heavily front-load the week to fit in around the conference. I was staying close to the Tiergarten for those who are familiar with the city. So an ideal running spot and I think I even crossed the marathon finishing line a few times. I attempted a bit of quality on Thursday but the legs were just not having it. 10K tempo averaging 6:22 a mile, which is slower than the HM I did a couple of weeks back. Not the ideal week for a tempo run I suppose! Back home now and planning 24M tomorrow.
  • HillyHilly ✭✭✭
    Thanks ES.  I never run well when away, especially when sleeping in a strange place.  Hope the 24 goes well!


    Decided against the 20 race as didn't fancy the 3 hours drive to Suffolk and running in windy conditions.  So back to 22 here with some marathon effort on the last half.


    Anyone racing this weekend, apart from PP at the xc?
  • The 24 went OK. Not up to my usual progressive standards, but it has been a tough week, and I foolishly did 16M yesterday to try and make up the mileage. So today was never going to be spectacular. It's an out and back route, and the headwind on the way back was unrelenting. I just ran out of steam in the end. Pleased to duck under 7:30/mi average in the end.

    Rest and reset day tomorrow!
  • PhilPubPhilPub ✭✭✭
    edited February 2017
    ES - well toughed out. Gurning down the road at the Tiergarten is a fantastic memory but seems a long time ago now.

    DNS at the National.  I did a warm-up lap of about 2.5 miles to see how the achilles felt, and it was actually fine for most of it. Then I got to this bit:



    Yes, the orange poles are course markers!  After this mad swamp-thing there was a good couple of hundred metres of ankle-twisting tufty grassy clumps; I sped up a little just to see how I might tackle the terrain at race pace, and quickly decided it was a marathon-campaign-finishing injury waiting to happen.  Not worth it!

    Frustrating, but I salvaged something from the weekend by having a good few ales in Nottingham on Saturday night followed by an easy paced 17.5 miles along the canal and river before we got the train back. It's probably a good job the XC season is out of the way even if I didn't quite make it through unscathed. Hopefully I can crack on now without any further damage.
  • Hi thread. Have been awol as work and music super busy. Also have a sore achilles for a week and am recovering from man flu. Grr. Trying to stay calm as VLM seems to be slipping away.
  • Welcome to the club Joolska - hopefully we'll bot be back at it in time to salvage our campaigns.

    Sounds like the sensible decision PP.

    ES - miles in the bank.

    I ran two miles this morning but it wasn't great. My hip isn't rotating fully, my quad is weak and my knee felt as though it were going to give way on me a couple of times. There is still a lot of bruising on my quad so I expect that's the main issue. A bit stiff on the short walk home, iced, soaked in the bath and have been in compression tights since and am once more walking without a limp so if that's the case tomorrow I will have another go, possibly three miles though I need to be wary of testing to destruction.
    If you think you can or you think you can't you're probably right.
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