Sub 3h15



  • Gul DarrGul Darr ✭✭✭
    Birch - good parkrun.
    Leslie - good report - you worked really hard for that, well deserved. But who was the little old lady?!!
    ssc - excellent fast finish for a great result - you must be chuffed with that.
    Lorenzo - that's a good result given the compromised training.
    PMJ - good report on a job well done.
    MsE - sounds like a great weekend.
    Badbark - was that you showing some restraint there?! An excellent weekend's running. And good to see you're planning long term too!
    OO - great pacing there! I make 20x6:45=2:15. Looking very promising.
    Another 10 mile plod for me this morning.

  • AbbersAbbers ✭✭✭

    Awesome HM results from Leslie, PMJ, Lorenzo, ssc and BB; some really impressive times in there and making me feel very slow!

    ssc - on drinking from cups, I'll be doing as MsE suggests and walking through drinks stations. Can't afford to not take on fluids as I'm quite a salty sweater, so need to replace electrolytes or I suffer, and have never mastered drinking from cups on the move. Better lose a couple of seconds every 5 miles than several minutes later on.

    BB - more bonkers running from you! Onwards & upwards. Like your long-term planning.

    Good 20 from GD and OO's 20 lap race; do you have to count your own laps, or does someone do that for you? Pretty sure I'd lose track...

    Nice parkrun marker for Birch. Promising for your league races.

    Gul - nice steady miles. How is the hip reacting to training?

    GM - welcome to the wonderful world of the dreadmill! Haven't been on one for a while, but have clocked up a lot of time/miles on them in the past. OK for interval sessions, very dull for anything else.

    LvSD - know the feeling, seeing all the speedy times being reported by others! I'm trying to take my own advice here and trust the process...

    MsE - sounds like a lovely family weekend.

    Final 20 miler of the campaign at the weekend, done on Saturday morning over an undulating, windy route in rolling rural Northants. Averaged 8:26, just outside MP + 10%, but felt relatively comfortable, if a little bit of a plod. It's now officially taper time, although another 10k time trial followed by a 16 the following day at the end of the week, so not quite done with the tough stuff just yet. No more midweek MLRs though!

  • BadbarkBadbark ✭✭✭

    Madbark, solid run at Larne but I can't understand why anyone would want to go out and attempt a 6-hour ultra the following day. One or both of the events have to be compromised. Can you explain how 27.2 miles run as an (incomplete) 6-hour ultra counts as a marathon? Say it was a 12 hour and you ran 27 miles in one stint and then 27 in another, does that count as two marathons?

    I ran the 6 hr ultra as a training run towards a 24 hr race in July. I didn’t want to run further than 27 miles after the HM, or it would affect my London marathon performance.

    The rules state that if you cover over 27 miles in a timed event it counts as a marathon. Stopping and starting again later wouldn’t count, as a second marathon even if you did 27 x 2. It only counts as one marathon even if you run hundreds of miles in a single stage event.

    Incidentally, although I ran over 53 miles in a 100k race two years ago, that doesn’t count as it was a DNF. That was my bloody walnut experience!

    You can read the full rules here -

  • GerardMGerardM ✭✭✭

    OO - Very good 20 miler. How did it feel? Anything left afterwards??

    A good start to the week here. 5k along the prom in 19:48, windy as hell again but nice and cool.

  • OO54OO54 ✭✭✭
    edited March 2017

    Congrats on the result PMJ- inside your target and a good WAVA.

    Yes this was the 20 lap race. Garmin has the race well short but it's the same every year and part of a well established parkrun course. With all the twists and turns I can only guess that runners cut corners Vs the measured line. Anyway given the wind and the turns I count it as 20 miles.

    Amazing to get a PB in that wind SCC, you must be well chuffed.

    Feeling very lethargic today and my left leg a bit sore. I think I'll have a cut back week around 50- no run today. 

  • Madbark, interesting, so you can enter a 100 mile race, run 99 miles and drop out and it does not count, or you could enter a 24-hour race and stop when you have done 27miles and it is a marathon (strictly an ultramarathon). 

    What is the outlook for London?

    Glad I didn't follow the 1:30 pacer in the end, 5k split should have been 21:20 and he was 21:40, then 42:40 cf 43:00 1:03:59 cf 1:06:18 and 1:25:19 cf 1:30:49 to end up with 1:36:04. He was even passed by the 1:35 pacer.

    1012 182 George Anderson M PACER 1:30 01:39:31 1072 01:36:04 00:21:40 00:43:00 01:06:18 01:30:49
  • AbbersAbbers ✭✭✭

    PMJ - George is an accomplished runner and has done sub-90 pacing many times before, both at Reading and Oxford, among other events. He apparently had injury issues on the day, so couldn't complete his duties - the reason I know this? He's also a personal trainer/health & wellbeing professional who pings out regular emails to a lengthy list of recipients, of which I'm one. I have no great affinity to him or his products and services, but thought I should point out he's otherwise a very reliable and capable pacer! Feel sorry for anyone who was relying on his pacing efforts though.

    Speedy 5k to kick the week off GM!

    6 easy at lunch.

  • OO54OO54 ✭✭✭
    Yes well done Gerard that a great 5k pace on your own. I felt pretty good after my 20 except my left leg where I've had a calf and thigh issues lately. I'm not sure I could have kept the pace up much longer. Basically I was flying the first 10 miles, then wobbled 11-17 then got back to mara pace for the last 3 which is a good sign. If I take Strava/Garmin data I ran 6:56 per mile. But if I assume the race was really close to 20 as the organisers claim it was 6:42 pace. I suspect the truth is somewhere in the middle but and I could have done better on a normal course without all the turns. Certainly gives me confidence that a sub 3 at VLM is possible but not taking anything for granted.  
  • Leslie HLeslie H ✭✭✭
    edited March 2017
    PMJ nice half and report , I was on for sub 85 till the last mile ,my next half in 2 weeks is maybe a bit close though for another crack !
    Gul it looks like she came in around 1:26 if that's her ,only seen her from behind as she flew past ,must have passed her later on, f45 so under 50 so not that old really ! clearly a decent club runner.
    Abbers nice 20m enjoy the taper
    MSE that's as fast as I could go for now but sub 85 should just be a matter of time..
    SSC cracking half mara time in the wind
    Badbark seems harsh the 53m doesn't count but rules are rules ,couldn't imagine a 6hr run after a fast half, way too tough .
    Gerard Cracking start to the week
    0054 sub 3 is within reach 
    8.5m this afternoon after nightshift 
  • Abbers said:

    PMJ - George is an accomplished runner and has done sub-90 pacing many times before, both at Reading and Oxford, among other events. He apparently had injury issues on the day, so couldn't complete his duties - the reason I know this? He's also a personal trainer/health & wellbeing professional who pings out regular emails to a lengthy list of recipients, of which I'm one. I have no great affinity to him or his products and services, but thought I should point out he's otherwise a very reliable and capable pacer! Feel sorry for anyone who was relying on his pacing efforts though.

    Thanks for the feedback, very interesting. As you know, I pace quite regularly and do so in pairs and we are briefed so that if one has an injury problem, the other carries on.  Reflects what I said about the race organisation. 
  • SEdanSEdan ✭✭✭
    Some good halfs all round! Well done everyone.
  • GerardMGerardM ✭✭✭
    OO - Well done, that sounded like a very good run to me and bodes well for another crack at sub 3. Thanks re today. I wore my new Adidas Boston boosts and felt good so just went for it. 1st mile was 6:39 into the wind, then 6:21 , 6:11 and 37 for the last bit. I hope to be able to get some fast mile reps in over the next 10 days or so before the 10k. I've never run well on that course and think my best was 39:43 in 2013 (last time I ran it) which I'd like to beat. 

    Birch - I meant to say well run at parkrun. I've never achieved a "high" WAVA. I think 73 is my best and normally hover around 70-72 but I seem to be improving as I advance in years but mainly in shorter distances which seem to suit. Which one do you use to see your WAVA score other than the parkrun one? 

    I just received the news that my sister and her family are confirmed to be relocating to The Netherlands, so currently weighing up an Autumn mara in the Dam. 
  • Gul DarrGul Darr ✭✭✭
    edited March 2017
    Abbers - enjoy the taper - bet you'll miss those mid-week MLRs! Everything seems pretty much okay; just a niggling feeling that if I push it then it will all flare up again.
    GM - very tidy 5k in training! Is that Amsterdam or Rotterdam? Should be super-flat! Talking of WAVA, a woman in the 65-69 age group missed out on 91% by a tiny fraction at the local parkrun not long ago. She regularly gets somewhere in the high eighties!
    OO - hope the legs aren't too sore today.
    Leslie - no, under 50 is definitely not old!!!
    9 easy miles d&d this morning.

  • BirchBirch ✭✭✭
    Gerard - I use this calculator  - but have had a massive drop-off in last 2 years ( when half marathon & marathon were 80% & 76%  respectively)  but as last year was just "going running" rather than "training", I was relieved to hit 72% for the parkrun (70% is my self-imposed absolute lower limit for respectability)   :) 
    Meant to say, OO - nice 20 - 2:15 (6:45 pace) was always my benchmark for sub-3;  hit that in your mara & sub 45 10K (7:10 pace approx.) would bring you home  ( but in reality you should have something to spare )   
    excellent half marathons ssc, Lorenzo, PMJ   and as always, enjoyed the reports.  
     wisely sticking to the easier paced outings for now, Gul,
     15 this morn - 6 with pal, 9 solo, including a (thankfully brief) hailstorm interrupting the crisp sunshine ! 
  • Birch said:
     (70% is my self-imposed absolute lower limit for respectability)   :) 

    "With 100 percent generally being assigned to the world record for that age group, a percentage over 90 is considered world-class for that age. Over 80 percent is national-class and over 70 is “regional-class.”

    So anything less than regional class just isn't running, may as well take up knitting ;)

    I was pondering lower limits, maybe I should switch to WAVA as well. I sort of had 20 minutes for a 5k in mind but for a 52 year old, that is 74.9% WAVA so in a few years it will creep up.
  • MsEMsE ✭✭✭
    I see WAVA as particular to individual perspectives so, for me, need to be back in the 80s to be running well. If I am in the 70s, it is typically when I am coming back from injury.  Put into context it also dictates what it could reasonably be.  As my marathon times have seen fairly sizeable chunks of time off when in fluid progression (3:27, 3:15 - injured for over a year - 3:12, 2:58 - studying and/or injured for a year - 3:07), I feel like this suggests I could be higher in the 80s before I hit my prime (one hopes!)  Conversely, I am rubbish at shorter stuff. I haven't done much but WAVA is not as competitive).  But this makes sense if we consider our body types (fast twitch/slow twitch).

    Nice easy runs from you all; apart from Abbers' last LR (well done!) and  Gerard who seems hell bent on running as fast as possible (don't forget to taper!)

    More yoga and pilates and easy running from me.  I think 30-45 minutes is really my limit before I feel the ankle bothering me.  An hour if I am well rested. Maybe I should try daily doubles of 30 minutes instead?  Today, I didn't run at all but joined Ironfriend on her club ride which was around 44 miles and very windy.  I am not built for cycling and do not have the power for wind as well as hills!  Had a hairy moment when descending and a lorry suddenly came around the corner way too fast.  I hit the brakes and fishtailed (too hard on the rear brake obviously) but miraculously managed to stay upright and not bring the rest of the group down (I was at the front end).  That would have been really embarrassing as it was only my second outing with them.
  • MsE, have you tried the opposite, so rather than shorter runs and shorter rest, longer runs and longer rest? I find that I now need a whole day rest so 48 hours between runs after a hard run. 
  • MsEMsE ✭✭✭
    MsE, have you tried the opposite, so rather than shorter runs and shorter rest, longer runs and longer rest? I find that I now need a whole day rest so 48 hours between runs after a hard run. 
    That is a good idea. The issue is the internal ankle structure so giving it more rest and stressing it less could work.  I could alternate rides with runs and still build fitness that way!  Right, tomorrow I shall run a bit longer and see how that goes. Maybe a local loop rather than an out and back so I can bail if the ankle complains.  I still feel compelled to do daily yoga and pilates though.... 
  • Leslie HLeslie H ✭✭✭
    Gerard mara opportunities.. you will soon have to start putting some mileage in again.
    Gul nice 9
    Birch nice weather beaten 15'er, was snowing heavy when I got up to go out at 3 today.
    MSE not built for cycling but leading the group again lol .Trying different length of runs sounds the way to go and see what works.
    9 tired ones up after nightshift saw a car while trying to cross road sped up to cross in time but was distracted by that for a sec and didn't look far enough back to see the van behind me turning in behind railings,squeaky bum time for a sec !

  • GerardMGerardM ✭✭✭
    Birch - Nice 15, glad the hailstorm was a brief one. If I plug my age into this calculator (I'm 43) and apply my target for the 10k 38:5x I get 73 which is about the top end for me at the mo. I've been running for just over 6 years so hopefully haven't reached my full potential yet. If I were to aim for an 80% I would need to run 35:29.  :o

    Gul - My sister and her family will be based in Amsterdam. Nice easy 9. What's the target mileage for the week?

    MsE - Sounded like you had a lucky escape on the bike. Please take care! Don't worry I will have a mini taper before the 10k. I'm not totally crazy! :)

    Leslie - Be careful too man! Yes, I almost booked flights and registered today but have to catch up with my sister first. I have wanted to do that one for a few years and it could fit well with a family visit and sightseeing tour. 

    Double run for me today. 5k progressive run on lunch starting off at 7:40mm finishing at 6:10mm for a 6:53mm average. Then 6 miles tonight while son was at cubs at a more sedate pace of 7:39mm. Will opt for a really easy run tomorrow to let the legs recover a bit. I saw our talented U23 runner who did the parkrun here a few weeks back in 15:17 has moved up in distance with his training. He did Eastleigh at the weekend and ran 31:18. I think it was only his 2nd one in 5 years and only his 3rd ever. I'd put money on him running 29 if he trained for it. 

  • G-DawgG-Dawg ✭✭✭
    Interesting on the WAVA thing. My recent Surrey Half has me at 76.69 which is my best ever. Age 49 now so I guess it will go up later this year if I can keep my form?

    Went out for a 10 miler tonight rather than a track speed session. Went with my pal and a slightly slower lady runner to help keep us from going too quick. Came in at 7.14 pace and it felt dead easy. Really pleased with that and was buzzing after.
    Ankle was almost pain free and the glute/hammy issue didn't hurt for the first 3 miles.

    The long gym session last night when I worked hard on them seems to have paid off.
  • Sounds like an interesting mix of conditions Birch - great to get a decent length midweek run in.

    Good excuse to get out to Amsterdam GM - go for it. Tidy 5K along the prom.

    Great 10 miler there G-Dawg. If [email protected]:15 feels really easy, it shows you're in good shape. Are you going to teh Woking game this weekend? I'm gutted I can't be there to cheers on the mighty Stones but we're heading out to the West Country.

    Have shelved the plan for an impromptu half in Budapest in a couple of weeks time - suggest that it was a good way to round off a romantic weekend didn't go down very well with MrsL!! Will just have to settle for a couple of early morning runs along the Danube.

    6.7 miles easy this morning for me - longer interval session planned for tomorrow.
  • MsEMsE ✭✭✭
    Advice I received today by email from McMillan on Racing A Better Boston:

    "Seasoned Boston marathoners will tell you that the challenge of the race isn’t Heartbreak Hill. The challenge is the miles and miles of downhill leading into Heartbreak Hill. These downhill miles trash your quads just as you enter the most important part of the marathon – the last 10 miles. Handle those first 16 miles better and you’ll likely have a better finishing dive down into Boston after you crest Heartbreak Hill.

    Sounds easy enough, but having coached hundreds of Boston qualifiers, I know that not all of us are created equal when it comes to our ability to run downhill well and, maybe more importantly for Boston, to run downhill in a way that our bodies can tolerate.

    To get ready to run a better Boston and handle the early downhill miles with ease, you can employ two different strategies.


    And no, there isn’t one best downhill (or uphill) technique for all runners. But, there is likely one that’s best for you. You just have to figure it out through a little experimentation.

    Any time you encounter a downhill, play around with your form. Adjust your body position (lean forward more, then lean backwards more). Adjust your foot plant (land more on your heels, then land more on your toes). Hold your arms lower, then higher and see what feels best. Lastly, adjust your stride rate. Try running with a faster cadence, then try a slower cadence. See how you feel. What makes you faster on the downhill? What makes the downhill feel less stressful to your body? Hopefully, those two will be the same, but they may not be, and this is important to know. For Boston, the downhill form that is least stressful on the body is the most important one. You can save that lightning-fast downhill technique for times when you aren’t worried about shredding your quads.


    My first coaching mentor, Guy Avery, wrote an article on this concept way back in the early 1990s. In the article, he advises creating a little soreness in your quads in training for a race like Boston. Use the training techniques below to safely stress the quads, and they’ll grow more resistant to the eccentric loading that downhill running creates. The result is that the downhills in Boston won’t tear up your muscles as badly. In other words, get a little sore in training so you can be strong for the race.

    There are two great ways to create a safe amount of DOMS. First, any time you encounter a downhill on a run, pick up the pace. You need to do this to find your best downhill running technique as described above anyway, but this strategy also challenges your quads to grow more resistant to downhill running stress. Because we runners tend to be extremists, I’ll include my usual qualifier that you must be sensible to not overdo the downhill running. You want to be a little sore but not debilitatingly sore or even injured. Use common sense.

    Second, begin to perform your post-run strides on a slight downhill. (You already do four to six 100m strides a few times per week after easy runs year-round, right?) Again, don’t get too extreme with the downhill; find a slight decline that challenges your quads. There should be nothing more than slight soreness a day or two after. This soreness shouldn’t interfere with your training.


    A little more focus on downhill running in the last few weeks leading into the marathon will pay big dividends at Boston. Start with slight declines run at a moderately fast pace and progress to steeper downhills and a faster pace. Find your best downhill form and remember that it’s OK (indeed, recommended) that your quads are a bit sore after your downhill workouts. Just be sensible about this training concept. You don’t need much downhill training to get the desired benefits. With a little extra focus you’ll Boston-proof your quads for a faster race day."

    In case anyone is interested.... ;-)

  • OO54OO54 ✭✭✭

    Gerard I also wear Boston Boost- seem to suit me well.

    Lorenzo- Boston is on my wish list once I retire. Interested but not yet,....

    I'm in Paris this week. No running and lots of beer- but I keep telling myself I deserve it ;)

    Been offered a place at the Coniston 14 this weekend- would love to do it but Mrs OO would kill me. 

  • G-DawgG-Dawg ✭✭✭
    Thanks MsE!!  B)

    Funny enough, I was doing Boston specific stuff last night and have more planned tonight. I told my running chums to not follow as I went faster for downhill sections with adjusted form, exactly as per the article above.

    Tonight I plan a 7 miler on an out and back route which is quite undulating. It will be steady on the ups and quicker on the downs to do exactly as that article states. I'll manage the injury stuff carefully too.

    I've been studying the Boston course and said to my mate last night that it's all about managing the first 16 miles and the descents early on, then 5 miles which have 4 climbs of note and then the final 6 into Boston which trend downhill. That article proves my thinking which is a good boost, thanks again MsE.

    Lorenzo - yep, I'll be there on Saturday. We had a huge away win at Braintree last night and jumped above the Stones in the relegation dogfight. Saturday is MASSIVE!
    Good backdown with MrsL there, it;s for the best!  :D
  • Gul DarrGul Darr ✭✭✭
    Birch - nice tally yesterday.
    MsE - glad you're okay after that scary moment. Hope the longer run and longer rest plan works. Interesting article on preparing for miles of downhill running!
    GM - good double there. I'm not too bothered about mileage just for the moment. If I can do some moderate mileage for a few weeks first without any issues then maybe think of building up to around 70mpw again.
    GD - if 10 miles @ 7:14 was dead easy then that's gotta be very promising! And sounds like some specificity in your training too.
    Lorenzo - yes, don't push your luck!
    OO - ditto!
    I was awake early enough to go for an MLR this morning, but decided to play it safe and had another 40 mins rest in bed before doing a 6 mile recovery run.

  • AbbersAbbers ✭✭✭

    Gul - glad the hip is OK and you're able to tick off some miles again.

    Birch - nice 15 miler on a Tuesday!

    MsE & Leslie - be careful out there! We have resilient bodies, but are still a bit on the squishy side...

    GM - good double, and like the Dutch running options!

    GD - if 10 felt easy at 7:14 pace, that bodes very well.

    Lorenzo - the Danube runs sound very appealing! Best not push your luck too much!

    OO - sounds like a very enjoyable week!

    8 for me yesterday with 5x800 at 5k pace on the way. Rest day today.

  • BadbarkBadbark ✭✭✭
    All this WAVA discussion made me check my HM at the weekend. I'm well pleased to see I broke 80% at the end of a 190 mile fortnight. :)
  • SlokeyJoeSlokeyJoe ✭✭✭

    quick hello - thought I'd pop in for the next few weeks for some vicarious VLM pleasure.
    best of luck boys and girls

    as you were.....
  • SlokeyJoeSlokeyJoe ✭✭✭
    What the hell has happened since I was last here - what does level 3 mean? What's with the lols and likes??
    pesky kids!
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