Sub 3h15



  • G-DawgG-Dawg ✭✭✭
    I know some results as I tracked them. Can't wait to hear the stories.

    A friend ran Paris 2 weeks ago and scored 3.10 in hot weather. Today she got 3.47. Just shows how long a mara recovery can take.
  • BadbarkBadbark ✭✭✭
    2:49:06! Tenerife tomorrow
  • GerardMGerardM ✭✭✭
    Badbark - You paced it beautifully, you did it son, you did it! Whoop! Frickin awesome!!
  • G-DawgG-Dawg ✭✭✭
    Wicked skills Badbark. Had you on the tracker. Brilliant pacing. Enjoy Tenerife.
  • Bike ItBike It ✭✭✭
    3:55 today which is reflective of where I am in running terms - no speed and even less endurance.  But that is more or less what I expected after only 2 weeks of proper running.  I already had told myself not to go for a C seeding (sub 3:40) as I was sure it would be unachievable given my condition.  However I was seeing paces that were within C seeding for the first half, but was certain that the pace would be unsustainable.  I went through half in 1:51  The second half was immediately difficult and I progressively slowed as well as taking some mini-walk-breaks from 9km to go.  By the end I was just a running calculator, working out by how much I could slow and still get a sub-4 for a D seed.

    Not surprising a PW (Personal Worst) for me - or let's better say a come-back PB.  And I met my goal and was finished before 9:30BST before VLM started.

    I'm not immediately sure that I will run Comrades.  I had to push myself in the second half today as hard as last stages of Comrades and I can't imaging that for up to 12 hours. I'll have to be a lot fitter so will judge later.

    The course itself was undulating with probably 200m elevation and one horrible section on twisting concrete path in a golf course.  It's the marathon I've done with the most turns and also the most potholes.  On a positive note though the marshalling was brilliant.

    Highlights were flybys by White Ibis, Hadeda and 2 male Peacocks on the course.  Also I got to run across Miles Smart street, by which time they were beginning to smart I can tell you.

    Happily no injury recurrence and I can still walk, although I did have a sleep at a fuel station on the way back as I couldn't keep my eyes open after a 3am start
  • Leslie HLeslie H ✭✭✭

    Badbark Never in doubt you would nail it on the day , well done and enjoy the sun and beers .

    Bikeit A tough day for you by the sound of it but well toughed out and things can only get better .

  • GerardMGerardM ✭✭✭
    Bike it - A 3am start is a killer. Well done on getting it completed, a tough course as well by the sound of it and hopefully you can build on that now.

    I'll pen a quick  duathlon report while our brave VLM'ers hopefully enjoy their post mara refreshments.  

    I had fun at the duathlon today. Got there at 6:45am for a 7:30 start and was very imprssed with the set up. We entered as a relay team and there were some serious looking guys and ladies at the start. The 1st run was on a very undulating course with a 600ft drop to sea level and back up. 5.12k done in 20:10. Handed over to my cyclist buddy and completed the 22k bike which was a 5 lap course with some very technical turns. He completed it in 46 mins and after a swift transition I was wondering if I would have anything left in my legs for the 2nd run which was meant to be 2.5k but measured 2.6 on the Garmin. It was on a different route and again it was undulating and some off road onto a rutted trail. I felt great and started picking off some of the tired runners (6 in total) who did the whole thing and finished in 9:48 for a top 10 finish on the 2nd run. We finished 27th out of 77, so not a bad showing. Stunning conditions today and it was a very well organised and friendly event. I have no intention to don the lycra in the near future as I'm a runner at heart, but it sure does like fun. 
  • Quick check in - in a nutshell not a great run today.

    Pacing plan of 7 min / mile was bang on for the first 15 miles but then started to go pear-shaped and for the first time in a marathon I struggled with a stitch around mile 21, but the damage had been done by then.

    10K splits of 43:35, 43:35, 44:05 and 48:09 followed by 10:37 for the last 2.2K tell the story - the planned finishing kick along the Embankment didn't quite materialise.

    Finishing time of 3:10:00 - more than a bit disappointed after a largely positive training programme and my slowest London since 2013. :'(

    On a positive note, it was great to catch up with OO (and the crew) and Poacher (what's this training lark all about?) in Chandos afterwards. Shame Badbark wasn't able to make it but after a stunning performance, perfectly paced, I'm not surprised he's heading off to Tenerife to celebrate.

  • JoolskaJoolska ✭✭✭
    Wow, well done Badbark!

    Sorry you had a tough day, Lorenzo.  The marathon can be a cruel mistress, and I'm sure you'll be back stronger.

    Good to see you racing again, Bike It, and glad the Comrades seeding is sorted, even if you wanted a faster time really.

    As for me, I'm curiously happy with my slowest marathon since I broke 3 hours: 2.55.53.  I knew 2.52.30 as a target was a bit of a stab in the dark, as I hadn't done any marathon pace tempo runs since the injury.  Turns out I'd stabbed a bit optimistically, but I split in 1.26.25 and gave myself every chance.  I then hung on to just dip under 1.29.30 in the second half, and am really proud I did so.  If you'd asked me before, I'd have said 2.55 would be a disappointment, but I know I gave it everything after a disrupted build up.  No autumn marathon and will hopefully be able to focus on running a bit faster as a result.  In the meantime, today's efforts have made the Achilles grizzle again, so my first job will be to let that settle and then rebuild my fitness.
  • KeirKeir ✭✭✭
    Some very inspirational running today. Well done all.

    BB and Jools - fantastic, impressive runs.  You're both super speedy. Sounds like you have a good plan going forward Jools. Is it the speed work the source of your improvement over the past few years? 

    Well done on toughing it out Lorenzo. There is no where to hide out there when the wheels start to fall off, so well done on stucking to it.

    Take time to reflect before making a decision on Comrades Bike It. Post marathon is not the best time to make decisions. 

    Don't throw away the lycra just yet GM - you might be glad of it on some nice summer days when it is too hot to run. 
  • DazzaLDazzaL ✭✭✭
    edited April 2017
    LvSD - Well done, the crowds are something else. There were times when I almost got goosebumps.

    Badbark - Fantastic stuff, enjoy the relax and keep those legs moving on the plane!

    Bike It - Well done for sticking it out. I'd be intrested to near what you do decide with Comrades as it's on my list of bucket list races (it's more or a skip than a bucket).

    Lorenzo - Sorry to hear it didn't go as expected. Any idea what caused the Pear to appear or the stitch?

    Joolska - Fantastic effort! Rest up and sort the Achilles

    Bad day at the office for me. Turns out I was in the Blue start rather than Green with 4 hour pacers. Started the race easy, ignoring the 3:06 target and focus on 3:15. Was bang on target until Mile 16 when I fell apart. Not sure why but mentally I was dead. Took the race easy and crossed in 3:43. Legs feel like I've run a parkrun so clearly I didn't work anywhere near hard enough. Must try harder next time :(
  • PoacherPoacher ✭✭✭
    Congrats to all who put their mind and body on the line again yesterday. Even with a crowd running into hundreds of thousands, the runner is essentially alone and in sole charge of pain, fatigue, misery, joy, despair, frustration etc (tick those which apply).

    BB - wow - that must feel so good after your various setbacks. Now take a break and sort out those niggles.
    Joolska - sounds like you enjoyed it despite missing the A target - another quality performance and a strong plan for the future.
    BI - from your previous posts I would have expected a slow 4.XX but sub 4 seems like a very good result on a tricky course starting at Gul o'clock; you must be in good underlying shape and a Comrades finish is very doable.  OTOH you are right about the many hours of pain that would take and living relatively close makes it easy to make a late decision without risking the extreme expense involved in flying in from another continent.  However the temptation to go one step closer to the green number club must be strong.
    Dazza - wonder what went wrong - sounds like you did the right thing in turning down the gas and conserving strength for another, faster day. I thought the crowds were particularly good yesterday, especially the Sikh drummer who was something special.
    LVSD - good effort, it's not the fastest course so taking it steady to enjoy the craic makes it memorable.
    GM - nice duathlon, maybe your pal opted for the bike phase after seeing the route profile for the run.

  • PoacherPoacher ✭✭✭
    Lorenzo - not your day but still a decent result. The 2nd half is definitely slower than the 1st. I could see in mile 1 that you were in good shape and obviously faster than me.  You can't legislate for a stitch. Loving the Spanish plan and it seems like MrsL has bought in - that will surely help release funds!
  • PoacherPoacher ✭✭✭
    edited April 2017

    Here goes:

    2016 training: Jan - 200m, Feb - 150, Mar - 150, with  nothing over 11m. This led to a desperately ugly 3.26 in Manchester then a much easier 3.17 in London 2 weeks later in helpful weather.

    2017:  Jan – run 150, bike 150. Feb – run 100, bike 150. Mar – run 100, bike 450.  Longest run 10m. This turned into 3.14.51 in Manc with quite a bit of walk/run after 18m, and it’s clear that being a c*ap cyclist (who has to spend 5 or 6 hours in the saddle to cover any useful distance) is hugely beneficial for endurance. 

    VLM was a full 3 weeks after Manchester this year, training was 34m slow run + 261m bike, + many days of hard outdoor labour.  Overall picture: light, very fit, undertrained for running, really tired but needing to do a lot more biking before the big event in June.  Having ticked off the sub 3.20 GFA time in Manc I should probably have deferred VLM, but hey it’s a good day out, no pressure, and it would be very hard to break the streak which now stands at 12 years.

    I fancied beating the Manc time and thought 3.12 might just be possible, but would have been very happy with 3.19 and OK with 3.29 or worse.  The fancy dress wasn’t really a big hindrance and the crowd response was huge.  Didn’t see any familiar faces at the start but had a chat in mile 1 with Lorenzo who soon went ahead at a pace I didn’t feel up to.  After 5m I was working harder than one would like to stay at 3.15 pace so decided to drop it off and settle for 3.2X. At this point Speedy Goth turned up looking quick, we ran a mile or 2 and had a catch up so I forgot to slow down.   Half way in 1.34.07, not too bad, decided to carry on to 18m then mix in some walks to run the clock down for another sub-3.20.  However I was still running OK and enjoying it so only walked at water stations and up some of the inclines.  With 4m to go the pace was slowing but sub-3.15 beckoned and a reasonably strong finish + a lumbering “sprint” for the line brought it home in 3.13.58.  Quite happy with that for a B race.

    Lessons learned, none of which is rocket science: (1) bike endurance translates surprisingly well to running although it isn’t anything like as good as focussed running-specific training; (2) it’s fairly easy to knock out a back burner marathon which is nowhere near a PB, but to get faster would mean knuckling down. I am sure I could get back to 3:0X with a bit of work but doing that + the cycling simply wouldn’t be possible at this stage. (3) VLM is not the fastest course, but the crowds and organisation are excellent, and the best bits (e.g. Cutty Sark) are memorable moments.

    Anyway, it was a good day, the streak survives, this makes 58 maras + 13 ultras = 71 big ones.  Two weeks until moving from the OldGit50 to EvenOlderGit55 age group so life in the old dog yet.

    A nice sit down in the pub and a few beers with Lorenzo, OO54 and their families, then off for a bath and a sleep. See you next year.

  • OO54OO54 ✭✭✭
    edited April 2017

    My day was also a bit of a disappointment, but to start with the positive, a couple of pints with Poacher and Lorenzo was the highlight of the day. And staying with my daughter a mile from the start line made things very comfortable and relaxed this weekend.

    I set off as planned at 6:45 pace but as early as 9 miles that was clearly not on and by half way I has started to slide and was just a few secs inside 3 hour pace. Most of the rest of the race was a blur just focusing on the pace and working harder that I should of been. My hips were sore and the familiar strains in my left calf and thigh were getting very sore. I had a real wobble when I reached 22 and even considered walking for a stretch. Not sure if it was a stitch but I also had a real pain in my stomach. The slowest mile followed with a 7:43.

    Then the FGFA 3 hour pacer passes me at mile 23. I had a serious word with myself and decided to hang on to the back (he seemed to be outside of 3 hour pace).That saved me for the next 2 miles, but as he stretched away at mile 25 I knew the game was up and slipped back to a 7:26 last mile.

    Final time was 3:02:46 but could easily have been a lot worse. As Jools said I know I gave it everything so whilst disappointed, it's only with my declining abilities (at the marathon) rather than my work rate on the day. I feel that a sub-3 is beyond me now.

    I know I'm not alone with the blues, but many Congrats to Jools and BB who both ran exceptionally well under the circumstances. A few of my pals also did very well.       

  • Gul DarrGul Darr ✭✭✭
    LvSD - well done. That's excellent going so soon after Brighton.
    Leslie - slacking on the mileage this week? ;)
    Badbark - just amazing. Congratulations on the sub 2:50. Now go and celebrate in Tenerife!
    Bike It - great mental strength to get the job done. You've done so well to come back and the fitness will only increase.
    GM - good result. Sounds like fun.
    Lorenzo - sorry to hear it wasn't your day. I'm sure you'll bounce back.
    Jools - that's a great time still, considering your disrupted campaign.
    Dazza - sorry to hear you had a tough day too.
    Poacher - that is very impressive. Notching up sub 3:15s off your less is more training!
    12 mile MLR this morning. 6 @ 8:57 and 6 @ 8:10.
  • OO54OO54 ✭✭✭
    That man Poacher is a star & an inspiration. Not only does he turn out fast marathons on no specific training, but he's looks rather fetching in a ladies dress- and quite distinctive from the rear I heard.  
  • Gul DarrGul Darr ✭✭✭
    OO - x-post. Great effort. Maybe another sub 3 isn't entirely out of reach just yet...
  • KeirKeir ✭✭✭
    Sorry to hear it didn't go well Dazza. Marathons are as much about the head as the legs and sometimes it just isn't there. Have you got another target to focus on for the summer?

    Really interested to read of you comparison between this and last year Poacher. Personally I have found that running benefits cycling more than the other way around, but that could well be due to personal history. Although not mentioned in your lessons bit, reading through your post it looks like the combination of the extra week between Manc and London, the bike miles and also the lighter weight all played a part in an improved performance? It also sounds as if experience played a big factor in ensuring another excellent outcome.

    OO - Well done for digging deep. Knowing it wasn't on at mile 9 and then continuing to dig in despite the pain for another 15 miles takes real guts. Don't despair. You need to find 6 sec per mile, which in reality shows that you are still in sub 3 condition when things fall right on the day. 
  • BirchBirch ✭✭✭
     . . .   all this & watching telly yesterday makes me want to come out of retirement (so I need to have a stern word with myself  . . . . .  )   anyway  -
    Badbark - finely judged effort - well done !
    BikeIt - love the term "comeback PB" - much better than PW - but well toughed out . . .
    Lorenzo - hard lines, but good fortitude grinding out the last 12K . . .
    Jools - excellent result in view of the compromised buildup - and pleased that you're pleased with it - we can sometimes be too hard on ourselves . . .  
    OO - so don't be too hard on yourself  - you gave it everything - and let's face it, 3:02 at 54 (?)  is none too shabby at all  . . . .
    Poacher - brilliant stuff - and nice one with the 71 "biggies"  . . .    do you have anything lined up to mark the attainment of EoGit status ?  
    lastly - Gerard - that sounds a fun day/event - and a good running workout for you  . . .
  • MsEMsE ✭✭✭
    Awesome racing from the weekend posse. I know some of you are disappointed with your results but they are still stand out impressive. Perhaps it is because it is easy to forget how high a standard we strive for being amongst such greatness ;) .

    Really pleased for you, BB. I had no doubt you would do it and you fully deserve to have a wonderful break in Tenerife.

    BI - onwards and upwards.  As the Queen of Come-backs, I have been there a few times.  It is great you are able to come back at all really and to be able to report no injuries is really the icing on the cake!  It is just a stepping stone to your chance to shine.

    Gerard - sounds like you had fun in the duathlon relay.  Sounds like you did really well in amongst the lycra brigade.  I have to admit I shy away from the shiny lycra and gear brigade despite them being incredibly friendly.  The simplicity of running cannot be beaten.

    Lorenzo - am gutted for you as I do not think 3:10 reflects the shape you are in at all.  Any idea what led to the stitch?

    Jools - great time even with the injury!  Great idea to focus on letting the achilles heal so it doesn't become chronic.

    Dazza - any idea why you were so flat mentally?  How did you spend the day before?  Did the different start throw you?

    Poacher - awesome time off cycling training and so soon after Manchester.  Agree that all those turns mean London isn't the fastest course.  I reckon a point to point with a negligible net downhill like CIM in California is a good one for a PB.  Anyone for a thread outing?  ;)

    OO- it really does sound as if the hip, calf and thigh niggles were enough to derail you because I think that your fitness and ability were there to get you a PB.  It doesn't take much when in the latter stages of a marathon to throw you off pace and something like that could easily have done it.  3:02 is an amazing time for a 54 year youngster.  But please don't give up chasing a PB. If you can get 5K PBs then.... 

    Excellent MLR from you, Gul. Hip pain all gone?

    I watched the entire elite women's and men's race from the "comfort" (being a relative term) of my saddle sat on the turbo trainer.  Couldn't believe the pace Keitany went out at and she certainly laid down the gauntlet to the others.  My all time favourite Tirunesh Dibaba was a delight to watch.  Even elites get stitches it seems and she had a moment doubled up on the Embankment! I love the Ethiopians and am pleased she and Bekele ran good times.  

    More easy running here. 7 miles at the usual ploddy pace.  Surgery in a few days but first up it's MsEsq's turn to have his shoulder fixed tomorrow...  Trying to work out the logistics for looking after the family and dogs is proving to be a challenge, not least because the OH is away on business all week.  I shall be living by the mantra that it really does take a community to raise a family for the next few months!
  • Leslie HLeslie H ✭✭✭
    Lorenzo sorry it didn't quite go to plan for you on the day but we all have races like that , keep plugging away and sub 3 will come soon enough.
    Jools still a cracking time with injuries holding you back and disrupting your training.
    Poacher still getting faster the less running you do ,top effort.
    0054 you are so close to sub 3 on a better day you would be well in so take a bit of time to rest up and go from there.
    Gul I'm just following the plan not my fault the mileage drops off for a week Lol but 75m on nightshift is plenty ! Nice 12.
    Dazza just not your day but there will be better days ahead.
    Gerard nice bit of racing but don't be tempted to the dark side !

    15.5m after i got up from nights at 7:49 average ,all of it on the mara course including nearly all the mara hills, damn that course felt tough !

  • G-DawgG-Dawg ✭✭✭
    Hey Lorenzo! You've popped up in one of our club pics in the background behind a mate who is hurting bad in the final turn. Shall I bung it up here?
  • GerardMGerardM ✭✭✭
    MsE - I too have a soft spot for the Ethiopian runners and it was painful seeing Dibaba suffering. Amazing recovery though when she managed to expel whatever it was that caused the cramps. She's poetry in motion to watch. Keitany is a beast of a runner and went for it big time and I was astounded she managed to hold on after such a quick half. I watched the NYC race when she went for the WR then and blew up but yesterday she was unbeatable. King Kenny is my all time favourite and I was screaming at the tv (my neighbours already think I'm crazy with my axe wielding) when he started to close the gap. From what I have read apparently he had issues with his shoes and they caused blisters which meant he had to alter his form which then caused him hamstring difficulties. I was gutted he didn't get the win, he just wasn't able to run fast enough in those last few miles but Wanjiru was a worthy winner in the end. Running is the purest form of natural movement/sport for me and have no desire to switch allegiance to the tri. A lot of the very good runners here have. I can't be doing with the schelp of it all! :) Good luck with the surgery and for your son too. Oh and CALIFORNIA sounds soooo tempting. When is it?? Never been, I've always wanted to visit there. Where you based in Cali before you came back to blighty? 

    Birch - You know you want to really. :) 

    Well VLM'ers - I have to say everyone of you did yourselves proud yesterday, no matter what the outcome was. Marathons are tough and there are so many variables that can derail even the strongest runner. Any chinks in the armour will be revealed and you all did exceptionally well to get through the pain and suffering of those long last few miles. There are 000's or runners and spectators but only the endurance runner knows that dark lonely place of suffering and pain especially in the last 6 miles or whenever your mind starts to take over what the body is trying to do. We endure and carry on regardless of the all these things. 

    Lorenzo - You may not think this now but I believe you will look back on that run and feel proud of what you achieved. You should, well done for hanging on and 3:10 is a very good time no matter how you look at it. I'm impressed you managed hold a decent pace considering what you were feeling. That is not something I have ever managed to do!

    OO - What can I say other than you are a bloody good runner and although you didn't hit your target 3:02 is some going and I'm not convinced your sub 3 days are over. You are planning on retiring soon, you will have less stress in your life and will be able adapt a plan that suits you, should you desire to... and thus achieve your goals. I'm in awe of your performances this year and yesterday was another one! Re my comment about the chink in the armour, I was a tad concerned when you mentioned your hip was bothering you recently amongst other things. It's a long way to run with mechanical issues but you certainly didn't bomb like I did in Manc last year. 

    Speedy - You've not been around here for a while but I tracked you and you ran very well with a strong finish. I hope you were happy with that run? Pls come back and say hi!

    Jools - You seem to be in a very good place right now and that's just great. You did so well yesterday and I'm delighted you are happy with the outcome with a compromised campaign. 

    Poacher - I've said it before and will say it again, you're one tough muddah! What's with the "fancy dresses" though, is there something you are not telling us? ;) Well done sir!

    Dazza - Hard lines man, we've all had one or more of those days. You'll come back stronger next time for sure. Keep at it and you'll get there for sure. 

    Badbark - Major envy here, not only of your running but you're in "The Reef". Enjoy, kickback and soak up the sun and cervezas, you sure deserve it! 

    Leslie - Great prep for your marathon! 

    10 miles for me today comprising of 1 3.1 mile run along the beach in lovely sunny weather on lunch and then a 6.9 mile plod down the country lanes and back along the east coast. My legs told me tonight how much effort I put in yesterday and was sensible averaging about 8:31mm. After watching yesterday and knowing all you guys who were out there makes me really want to have another stab at London and have beer and cheer with you guys afterwards! I must make a plan!

  • Thanks to everyone for their comments - am feeling a bit better about things now and thinking about possible changes to the plan for next time around. Now need to focus on the Ultra in a month and a half's time now. MsE - I suspect you're not going to be competing but do you fancy running any stretches as a training session?

    In answer to the question about what caused the stitch, I've got no idea - I followed exactly the same fuelling strategy with the same gels as normal, together with some water every few drinks stations. I guess it's just one of those things but as I mentioned, in reality it probably cost me no more than a minute - it was more that it meant that there was a period of the race that was a bit less enjoyable than it needed to be!

    G-Dawg - by all means post the photo, as long as I'm looking spritely in it! I also passed another Woking guy who was with you at Beachy Head and he recognised me from people shouting out "Lorenzo".

    Planning to take it easy for the next few days although I suspect I'll be getting itchy feet by the end of the week!
  • OO54OO54 ✭✭✭
    Yes thanks for all the encouraging comments- we'll all live to fight another day and many mara campaigns no doubt. Keswick half next Sunday which should be interesting.  
  • PoacherPoacher ✭✭✭
    Lorenzo - in the wider context you should feel good about Sunday - I suspect you are a natural ultrarunner and TBH it's very hard to perform to optimum potential in ultra & mara in the same season. But with a VLM that was actually pretty close to PB time, you are now in a great position to cane it in the ultra. Perhaps MsE can don a striped vest and do pacemaker duties during key sections?

    OO - ditto, mara is not even your best distance and you are still pretty quick for an old fella. Next task - smackdown against that lad with the 4.20 mile time...

    GM - come on over

    Keir - interesting ideas. Presumably almost any physical activity can generate fitness and thus aid other sports, but maybe running is the chief beneficiary as it is so un-technical. As for my improved performance, IMO weight isn't a factor (already v skinny); ditto the extra week as I did no recovery, in fact just the opposite. Bike miles definitely helped but also experience - one gets good at doing the bare minimum needed to secure a target, and at running down the clock on race day. Stats say over the last 7km I passed 445 and was passed by 42 so perhaps should have been more ambitious.

    Birch - dunno - it's bunny-in-the-headlights time now as the cycling debut is in June and it feels like I am the Titanic and 186m is the iceberg. Other than that, looking to EOG podium finishes in all but the biggest races I suppose, and trying to edge up to 80% WAVAs.

    In other news, MrsP sent the race pics to all the wrong people, drawing the comment "if that outfit was a police officer, AC12 would be all over it" - fans of Line of Duty will understand.

    21m bike recovery yesterday, felt good, maybe a little run today. Who is next on the race calendar - Leslie?

  • G-DawgG-Dawg ✭✭✭

    There you are Lorenzo. You beat poor old James by 40 decs. He was on for 2.52 until hitting the wall at 19.

    Yes, that was my running pal Rich you saw. He said he saw you. A bad Achilles thwarted his sub-3.10 attempt and got 3.17.

    Well done on such a good time.  
  • PoacherPoacher ✭✭✭
    Lorenzo - the only difference is the magnificent tats - get yourself inked right away!
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