Shades Marathon Training

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  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Cal, the Totnes 10K is mainly off-road and goes around an estate, which includes a couple of fields with cows in.  The job of the cow herders is to try and keep the cows out of the way of the runners (and hope there're are no bulls in the field...).  Famous last words, but I don't think injury is a concern really (no more than usual, anyway) and I'll do a proper warm up before the event.  If I feel any twinges, I'll just slow it down - no issues.  But yeah a poor performance is on the cards....if I have a slow race, I'm not bothered though, particularly as I'm meeting up with a couple of friends for a pub meal afterwards which is a big part of the reason for me signing up :)  I suppose there's a very small chance I may surprise myself, which is why I've entered....I live in hope!

    Yeah, slow down the LTR pace, maybe try it at Half pace or something.  I think they've put the recovery run in, which from memory is at very slow pace, so that in theory your legs are fresher for the long run?  Not sure though.
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Ian - that shows just how far you've come on with your training, you're working long hours, highest month's mileage and you feel fine :)

    Big G - if I was marshalling I would volunteer for the 'herding cows' role.

    The weight you lose due to a stomach upset is the same as if you'd run a marathon, and leaves you dehydrated and low in glycogen stores, water is required to store glycogen.  That's why you feel like you have no energy until those levels are restored.

    Good luck with the 5km, look out for the Maverick in his '4% faster' shoes ;)

    Cal - that's great news about the knee just throwing a one day tantrum.

    Re the P & D, is the recovery run to recover from speed/work sessions?

    Killer Pilates class today, my hamstrings are trashed and my quads and ITBs have had a good workout too.
  • Yeah, maybe. I just do an easy run after a fast run but a recovery run after a long run. Easy is around 10:40 to 10:50 and recovery is generally 11+ in my case. I did notice a couple of LTR sessions two days after the long run (with the Monday being a rest or cross training day) and I think I'd struggle with that. Today was easy pace (I'm actually happy with the consistency of my pacing today - aside from the slow first mile and slightly slower than easy pace second mile, most of my miles were within 5 seconds of each other.

    I'm wondering if my knee threw a tantrum because a component of this particular Vinyasa instructor's class is high to low lunges. My knees have never been a fan of lunges, although static lunges such as many of the yoga positions are based on are fine. I guess the stress of that on top of the downhill running caused the problem. She's due to change up the class soon but if she does the same class next week I'll ask to skip that part (or modify it).
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2017
    Cal - what's a LTR run?      ....sorry, edit, it's a lactate threshold run, isn't it.   How long are the LTR runs?

    I find lunges uncomfortable and I'm rubbish at them, I only feel stable if I have a weight such as a kettlebell.
  • Well, for instance, the first week has a Tuesday LTR at 8 miles with 4 at LT pace (suggested as 15K to HM pace). The longest is 10/6.
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Cal-Good luck if you do P&D,I looked at it and read the book but there was too much faster stuff for me as I've found that's when I struggle with injuries.
    Shades-I'll join you herding the cows,great role to have.
    I'm going to do another 50 mile week then next week 55 then cutback and see how I take it,most will be easy so hopefully ok.
    If I can if like to average 50 as think that will make a big difference.
    8 today,4 easy and 4 MP,felt fine again but going to stick to my rest day tomorrow as planned.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    edited August 2017
    Shades/Emmy, I know of Dom too, although not well.  He and his partner were Trotters for a while I think.

    Ian, great mileage there for you.  Brilliant that you're feeling good on it, too.

    Cal, similar to Ian, it was the speed work that broke me pretty quickly last time I tried P&D.  The mileage wasn't an issue for me, but the speed work was.  Others say they really struggle with the LT work, but from my previous attempts, I found that okay.  I would like to attempt it again properly for a concerted effort for a one off marathon attempt though as I do think if I could get to grips with the plan and speed work, I would see some improvements (obviously making sure I did the long runs nice and steady), but it's hard fitting it in.  I can't see me doing it for a while now, with the marathons I have booked up.  Unless I could genuinely just do the marathons at a very easy pace and use them as long runs in the build up to a target event, but I don't think I could trust myself to do that.

    Just went for a nice walk, and stopped off for a late breakfast - bacon, egg, and sausage sandwich.  Probably the 5K speedsters don't have that before a race :)  
  • mowzermowzer ✭✭✭
    Big G - when I first started racing, I was amazed that at the shorter races all the very fast 'club' guys were tucking into bacon butties with just half an hour to the start. We decided that was why they were fast - they had tons of energy for the race. On the other hand, us lesser mortals who couldn't eat within 4 hours before the race were running on empty :/

    Well done for toughing out your marathon :) - that time isn't so shabby, and if you're racing a lot more (especially marathons) you might have to expect a slower time now and again. 

    Ian 5 - I think the brain does 'forget' the hard parts. There's an event that I've done a few times which I remember as being quite flat. In fact there is a massive, very steep hill just round the corner from one of the checkpoints - but I never remember that until I've left the checkpoint. Actually my brain has 'forgotten' what event it actually is - making sure I enter it every year  ;)

    'Marshal the cows' - no thanks - I think I'd demand a job at HQ!

    Well done to all those whose training is going well - mileage or distance or pace  :)
  • Cal - I normally hit the LT runs at around HM pace, maybe a few seconds (5/10) faster. These are a struggle in training, which is why I did the 11/7 at a 10k race last time!!
    Recovery runs are usually an easier day after a tough session. However I did move my days around rather than sticking to the planned session every day.
  • Thanks for the input. I think I'd need to build a better base before I can even start P&D but next marathon's not 'til next year, so I'll see how I feel after my Autumn halves. I've been looking at Maidenhead as a possible next race, though it's two weeks before Richmond (not that that's stopped me in the past - I've done HMs on consecutive weekends a few times, and twice I've PB'd at the first and then PB'd again at the second). It's a bit more of a faff to get to than other races I've done (a three line tube journey and then a train) but it's doable. However, it's the first weekend in September, which can be a lottery, weather-wise. Could be nice like today. Could be hot. I'll have a think and decide nearer the time. It'd be a new (to me) race, though, and I like running new races.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    I did the 5K and went out at sub-20 pace, to see what happened....needless to say, I didn't get sub-20 but I was pleased with how it went. 

    There were some quick runners there and it's easy to go off too quickly, but 1st mile of 6:27 is ok (if in sub-20 shape!). Of course miles 2 and 3 got progressively worse (6:37, 6:44) but I finished with a 20:36 on my watch. 

    I'm pretty happy with that after the weekend - I think it shows my usual parkrun is about 20-30secs slower for me, due to the last mile being on a field. 

    Not a PB, but it's the quickest I've done a 5K for some time and something to work on. Conditions were perfect for me too. 
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Cal Jones said:
    Well, for instance, the first week has a Tuesday LTR at 8 miles with 4 at LT pace (suggested as 15K to HM pace). The longest is 10/6.

    Well that doesn't sound too bad on paper, not so sure when it actually comes to run it :/

    Isn't Maidenhead the one that filled quickly last year?  Not sure who was looking a the race then.

    Ian - that's a good plan.  Many runners only make significant improvements in their marathon times when they get the weekly mileage up to a decent level.

    Big G - a high protein meal is not a bad choice before a short race as you won't feel hungry and glycogen already stored for the race so no need for carbs pre race.

    Well done that's a great result at the 5km, especially as you've been ill and done a marathon in the last week.   I take it the shoes felt good for racing.

    I've seen a pic of Dom finishing the 5k in his 4% shoes, don't know if it was a PB for him, will have to wait until Tarquin has done the race report.

    mowzer - I would have thought with all the off road events you've done that you'd be experienced at shifting a herd of cows. ;)

    Cool and steady light rain this morning, once again good running weather :)
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    edited August 2017
    Shades, I saw Dom and Tarquin warming up, and clocked the shoes!  I don't know Dom to speak to, really, but checking the results he did very well although not sure of his PB (he did 17:31 last night).  I had a very quick chat with Tarquin on the start line, and he was just taking it very easy for him last night (22:27).  Not sure if he's been injured or something?

    Yes, my shoes were fine - no problems at all.  Because of that I was half-thinking about doing this weekend's marathon in them, but I think I should try a bit longer run in them first to check they're okay for longer distances.  I don't know if the shoes made any difference - probably not!  I think the main differences were that I was with a group of faster runners and we were all pushing each other on, and last night was all on tarmac.  To show the levels there last night, I finished 53rd out of 103 runners, whereas normally at Torbay parkrun I finish around 20th out of around 200-300 runners, and I tend to run the second half of that pretty much on my own.  Edited to add, I mean when I'm pushing myself that's the case.  Often I don't "race" parkruns.

    I meant to say that RK has done 52 marathons in 52 weeks, so he's pleased about that.   He's easing off a bit now I think, and aiming for the DD for his 100th.
  • Big G, that's a bloody good result post-marathon. You must be at the stage where marathons don't destroy you completely. :lol:

    Grey skies today and a bit more humid. Speed was on the menu for today but I was pretty sluggish setting out so after knocking out a very slow 11:44 first mile I decided I'd better do a progression rather than a tempo as my body clearly needed to wake up a bit. Mile 2 was easy pace (10:52), mile 3 at low end MP (10:15), 4 at high end MP (9:54), 5 at sub-2 HM pace (9:08) and mile 6 at HM PB pace (8:51). I did a further mile to cool down (10:57) then hit the playground for some step-ups, hanging leg raises (I need to strengthen those hip flexors because my leg lift is terrible), bench dips and heel drops. Walked home.
    Interestingly, my cadence for my fastest mile was 190.
    I've entered Maidenhead. Now I've a month to get in shape.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Cal, thanks.  Don't forget though that my marathon was pretty slow for me and I walked pretty much the last lap.  I remember after that very hot marathon I did, which I took very easy, I seemed to recover surprisingly well too in terms of my legs.  In comparison, when I did London in a good time and Plym Trail the week after, my legs were tired on the start line and shredded afterwards, so it'll be interesting to see what they're like after Gloucester this week.

    Good session there.  I enjoy those progression runs.

    I have just realised that another good thing about that 5K is that I can now use a pace calculator to use as a guide for the 10K I have in a couple of weeks. :)  
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Big G - T is on a rehab programme at the moment doing intensive Pilates 3 times a week and deliberately not running much, trying to injury proof himself for future events.

    Pity you don't have a half marathon planned to test out the shoes, so you'll just have to make the decision.   Would be even nicer if halfway into a marathon we had an 'optional shoe change', equivalent of a F1 pit stop. :D

    You'll have to do the September 5km too, to see how you're progressing

    Quite a lot of speedy runners last night if you were halfway down the field at your pace.  I don't think you can compare a parkrun to a race in terms of placings, parkruns are just fun runs and a lot of runners treat them as such.

    DD will be a tough one for RK to do unless he runs with someone else, I think he would have struggled to get round this year if he hadn't had Fizz to keep him going, remember what he was like at Plym Trail.   
    So I supposed he's got one of those awful 52 shirts, that look like football shirts, they are so ugly and they have to pay £40 for them. :#

    Cal - that didn't take you long to decide about Maidenhead :)
  • E mmyE mmy ✭✭✭
    Hi all,

    Shades/ Big G -if you can believe it... he got a 4% PB! He was really chuffed from what I've seen on Facebook.

    Big G - how do you feel ahead of this weekend's race?

    Shades - I'm glad you agree about those shirts. They look absolutely awful and i'm amazed people actually want to buy them.

    Cal - Good luck for Maidenhead - that was a quick decision ;-)

    Another 11k for me this morning and i'm trying to decide what I do next.... I don't know if I want to do marathons for a while or whether I need to do a few in the UK to rediscover the love? I'm not sure. My breathing still isnt great (thank you allergies) so it's a bit tougher but i'm still getting out there with the dogs. We had a really lovely run this morning and it was cool enough to not worry about the heat with them.
  • Big G - yeah, I can understand that. I was ruined after Manchester - couldn't walk downstairs forwards for three days. But I could walk downstairs fine after Liverpool, since I ran-walked the last six miles. I think the fact it was undulating also meant I didn't have the same stress on the same muscles for four and a half hours.
    I'm in half a mind to have another bash at Liverpool next year as I really enjoyed it as a race, despite the mistakes I made with it. Only thing is, with it being a week earlier and Manchester being a week later, there's only six weeks between them instead of eight.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Shades, yeah, RK has one of those shirts.  He really surprised me at Plym Trail to be honest.  He whizzed off at the start and must have been nearly a mile ahead of me after 6-7 miles, but he finished 45mins after me....I still don't really know why he did that as he is so experienced, plus he had the day after to think about, which he ended up not starting.  At the time I remember thinking it's something a novice would do and indeed I saw loads of people stopping and stretching after 10K at London!  But credit to him - 52 marathons in 52 weeks is obviously a great achievement.

    I've pencilled in the September 5K, but it's only two days after City to Sea.  After the Milton Keynes marathon I had three days, and City to Sea will be much tougher I think.  But I'd like to do it, although if it's poor conditions I probably wouldn't bother in any case as a head wind seems to have a massive impact on any speed.  I have been looking at Exeter Harriers site, as they do have some "open" track days, and occasionally do 5000m, but I'd imagine I'd be relatively slow at those.  I don't have an issue with being slow, but I don't know if they cater for my speed so I've emailed them to check.  I don't have any spikes either and I'm not planning on getting any, but I'd like to try a 5K on a track if I can having never done it before, just to see what it's like.

    Speaking of Fizz, her wedding is in about 10 days and I'm going to the evening do.  Should be good :)  

    Emmy, that's funny about the 4% difference.  He must have been training well though, surely, as 4% is quite a lot especially at his speed isn't it (40+secs or something like that?).  Still a great coincidence though - he should call Nike and ask to be the next poster boy ;) 

    I'm feeling okay about Gloucester.  I'm looking forward to it actually, although I hope the weather improves as it's raining heavily here.  I'm looking forward to a single lap route, as opposed to multi laps around a blasted lake ;)  Also, it's a larger event but not too large, which I prefer as well.  Not sure about pace, but I'll think about that nearer the time.
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Emmy - I'm pleased he got a 4% PB, he's taken quite a lot of teasing about his new shoes.  I think he's marathon training at the moment.

    I'm glad I'm not the only one thinks those shirts are hideous, you know me I like to speak my mind. :)   And if he wears that shirt in a race Big G will leave him out of the club report/results. ;)

    Maybe wait a few weeks so you're past allergy time and any of the hottest weather and then decide what you want to do next running wise.

    Cal - you'd manage fine with a couple less weeks between marathons next year.

    Big G - when I spoke to RK at Plym Trail he was on a real downer and if he couldn't pull himself out of that in a marathon he will really struggle at DD unless he's got someone to take him round.   At Plym trail he then DNS'd the next day too.   He may have run a lot of marathons but his race times are very erratic.

    Re your next 5km, as a lot of the route is off road your joints should recover more quickly unless the ground is rock hard.

    I wouldn't recommend you wearing spikes for a track 5km, there is absolutely no cushioning in a pair of spikes, light running shoes are perfect.

    Yes, I know Fizz is due to marry soon, they make a lovely couple :)

    The weather looks good for Gloucester.
  • Ah, the starting too fast thing. Been guilty of that a few times (including Liverpool). Sometimes your enthusiasm just gets the better of your common sense.

    I actually think 6 weeks might be better than 8 - less time to lose the fitness from the first marathon. So I guess between the two it would be something like recovery week, light training, moderate training, training and two weeks for a taper.

    Emmy, you could come do Liverpool with me. It's a fun race even if you have a bit of a crap race like I did. A lot of it is through parks, so it's very pleasant, and there's music every mile.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    edited August 2017
    Cal, I've gone off way too quickly too, in the past :)  And it hurts, and ends with an awful experience!  And I expect it'll happen again to me too - "Oh, I feel quite good after 3 miles...let's push on", and then two hours later "Bugger, I'm now really struggling...this is going to be horrendous!" ;)    I was just surprised he did it as he does so many and as I hadn't been at an event with him before, I wondered if he did it all the time.  If he did it all the time, I couldn't imagine he'd get much enjoyment out of his hobby!  He must have gone out quite a lot quicker than his PB pace (his PB is about 4:15, but he hadn't got near there for a few months because his focus had changed to getting to 100), which felt odd knowing he had a marathon to do the next day as well.  He was there at Milton Keynes the other day and he started very conservatively at that one though.

    I obviously went out too quickly at my 5K yesterday too, but you can kind of get away with it at a 5K a bit more than a marathon!

    But credit to him for getting stuck in to his challenge.  I don't know him very well, but he's a nice chap too.
  • Yeah, I really screwed up in Liverpool - I started struggling at 12 miles and legs were dead at 16. I might have got away with it a bit better had I not taken time off for the hamstring, but as it was, the longest run I did after Manchester was a half marathon, so no doubt I'd lost some endurance. I think I was so happy the hamstring wasn't going to let me down I just charged off, which proved to be a big error. Lesson learned!
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Just seen a video of me crossing the line yesterday. I look like a zombie who is not very good at running, and is also not keen to learn. :-)

    5:45 in this video (which has the wrong date on it). 
    https://youtu.be/2Hb7BJS9G2E
  • E mmyE mmy ✭✭✭
    Big G - Great video. There are some serious speedy people there! I think that he's had some very good training but awful races lately.

    Shades - Thank goodness :) I wouldn't expect anything less. I've kept my mouth shut about other matters at the moment as i've had enough of it. Yes, i'll definintely give myself some time of just enjoying runs, trying to run in different locations and exploring a bit more. Let's see what happens.

    Cal - I've considered Liverpool as it's got a good reputation. I'm not sure what's happening next year as plans are up in the air regarding what we're going to be doing.
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2017
    Cal - I think you did really well at Liverpool and didn't mess up by doing a positive split.   As you had your hamstring problem you knew that you probably wouldn't be able to maintain your pace but you gave it your best shot.  If you'd have gone out slower you most likely would have done a much slower finish time.

    Big g - Great video, you look very composed finishing, whereas some of the others look like their heads are going to fall off.   Not that I know anything about  5km racing but I'm sure you have to go out at target pace otherwise there just isn't the time and distance to do any catch up.
    I saw D's shoes too in his finish clip. :)

    Emmy - are we on 100MC matters again?   Did you ever get your revised meeting minutes?

    I've hear good reports about Liverpool too, what date is it next year?

    Very strong headwind this morning, very tiring running into it, glad to turn for home.  Saw quite a few other runners out this morning including one that I caught doing some sideways strides on a little cycle slipway away from the road, but I saw him, we had a good laugh about it.

    My quads are a little bit sore, partly due to Pilates on Tuesday and Yin Yoga last night, must be careful today in Pilates today as don't want to start Sunday's marathon with tired legs :'(
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    edited August 2017
    Shades, yes I think pacing is really important in a 5K.  I think you have to be really realistic of your capability and even if you go off 10-15secs too quick in the first mile, it's game over as you lose more later.  I've never done a consistent 5K :neutral:  It's probably the same for any distance though.  I went out at sub-20 pace the other day as I thought I may as well try, but really I knew I'm not in that shape, but I had nothing to lose I suppose.

    If I ever get under 20-mins for a 5K, I think I'll be as happy about that as I am about my marathon PB, but I'm still some way off yet.  12secs-ish a mile seems quite a lot!   The thing is, as with marathons, the first mile of a 5K at PB pace can seem relatively easy I suppose, but you have to be quite measured I think.  Also I think a very good warmup is really important for a 5K, whereas I never bother with a warmup for a marathon.  I'm no expert at all, but it's just what seems to work best for me.  I do really like the 5K distance - always have done, although I haven't done many other than parkruns.  

    I went back over my records yesterday to update my sheet from the last few races, and the 5K I did on Tuesday was a "joint PB" by the exact same time.  I did 20:36 in January 2014.  That was on a measured (with a measuring wheel) course, but it was an event only open to my club.  I counted it as a PB, but really the one I did on Tuesday is my "official" PB, so even better.  For some reason, I thought I'd gone 20:16 at that club event, but I was mistaken.

    Regarding my running style, I don't really look like I was trying, but I was.  I was knackered at the end!

    Emmy, the guy who won it is quite well known on the local running circuit.  He's got the course record on that course with a 14:47.  Bonkers!  I don't know him at all, but he comes across as a really nice chap again.  He was warming down with some runners who are around my pace, and he was chatting about running, giving advice, etc etc.

    --
    Anyway, I led the Improvers group of my club last night, in the rain, which was 5-miles at a steady pace.  I then went out for an easy 6-miles this morning, but abandoned it after 4-miles.  I just wasn't feeling it for some reason - legs heavy, just feeling a bit yuck.  I don't very often abandon a run, but today just wasn't my day for some reason.  Oh well.
  • Shades - yeah, that was my excuse. Since I wasn't sure I'd be able to get round, I had nothing to lose, really. In retrospect I wish I'd been a little more restrained, as the last few miles would have been less of a death march. But I have no regrets. I did enjoy the race, overall, and came out of it wanting to do another.
    Next year's is on May 20th for those interested.

    Nice video, Big G. You did amazingly to get a PB so close to a marathon. I can't even imagine running that quickly. I'm not even sure if I have it in me to get much faster - I only just dipped under 8 minutes for the single mile and I was at VO2 max level for that. I kinda wonder that, with my build, I might do OK at sprints. Most of the runners who do well at middle distance seem to be more ectomorphic. When I see the fast runners from my club I feel like a rhino amidst a herd of gazelles.

    Anyway, not surprised you struggled this morning. The marathon and 5K combo will do that.

    No running for me today but I did the 6.30am Vinyasa class. It kicked my butt, but in a good way. I do feel it's more helpful than Bikram.
  • E mmyE mmy ✭✭✭
    Shades - Yep. Nope, no new minutes or any action. Oh well, we live and learn. The Dutch have a 100 club too.. :)

    Big G - Hopefully tomorrow you'll feel better. It's better to can a run if you're not feeling it.

    Cal - that's an early start for Yoga!
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    edited August 2017
    Emmy, would you recommend any Dutch marathons for the Spring?  Maybe similar size to Leiden?
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