P&D Autumn Marathon 2017

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  • AlanBAlanB ✭✭✭
    edited August 2017
    Impressive training again HA, you know you've worked hard when you get that light headed, jelly leg feeling on the run home.

    Enjoy the stag Millsy.

    Bad luck with the training yesterday Joe, just get the punctures out of the way in training this time ;) Enjoy the wedding.

    Positive week so far for me, back in to my routine that worked well earlier this year in getting me fit. Although it's all still easy & steady runs at the moment, hopefully my legs will be up to adding a tempo run in the next few weeks. An hour hilly steady run yesterday evening on very tired legs. They were ok on the flat and downhill bits but felt like they were going to buckle on some of the hills. Pleased to see the pace still coming down though (6:28's) and the aerobic efficiency wasn't as bad as i feared (951 bts/mile).

    Heading off to Peebles in a few hours for the club training weekend. Looking forward to it, not for the training but for the home cooking everyone brings. That and the collection of fine ales I'm taking :) Should be good!
  • JohnOzJohnOz ✭✭✭
    Great race millsy and well done on pushing to the end. 

    Congrats SteveMac on your first 100k and sounds like you had a great time. 

    Some strong runs runs from spoons, SQ, AlanB and jooligan, the summer breaks seem to be doing wonders. 

    HA77 - the tried and tested double sessions are back and you seem to be stronger than ever. 

    Joe - get them all out of the way now! Some good training as always. 

    Finally back into it to it after being knocked out for a week. Felt creaky and breathing is still laboured as I recover from this virus but almost every other person I meet is either getting rid of the last remnants of it or about to have a nasty 5 days. Just easy runs this week and not going to even think about the 12@MP that was supposed to be on Sunday!
  • Great report SteveMac. Superb effort, congrats.

    Jooligan - That sounds like tough conditions, well done for even getting out there. Yes Pfitzinger describes those sessions as exactly that - lactate clearance runs. I’d be interested to know if he would include these if they ever do a third edition of Advanced Marathoning. I think I may well include them in the build-up to London as a bit of variety from the non-stop 7 mile LT slogs. No parkrun for me this week, I have a progression long run that has to take priority over playing with new shoes! ;)

    SQ - Haha that made me chuckle. Solid long run.

    Enjoy the stag Millsy.

    Epic double day HA, great work. As you say, signs of some really good progress there.

    Bad luck Joe, but impressive effort fitting the training around life again.

    Good to hear things are going well Alan.

    Wise to skip the MP session JohnOz. Glad you’re on the mend, take it easy.

    I had a good medium-long yesterday, 14 miles at an average of 7:10/mi. The legs were a bit tired from the LT session the day before, and it was a bit breezy and humid, so pleased with that pace.

  • HA77HA77 ✭✭✭
    Spoons - From looking at Strava I thought your MLRs were getting quicker. Must be going well.

    John - Glad you're over the worst and back up and running. No rush.

    Alan - Steady progress continues by the sound of it. Hope the training weekend is good.

    Joe - Good luck with your big Saturday and wedding afterwards.

    Just an easy 7ish miles today. Was considering a MLR but could still feel Wednesday in my legs so happy to keep it pretty short. Still just over 60 miles for the week again, which is good. Camping this weekend so no running, then hopefully put in another solid one next week before a week off on holiday in Slovenia.
  • JooliganJooligan ✭✭✭
    HA: 60 miles in 5 days is pretty damn impressive then add in all the quality work you do too so 2 days off is probably necessary to allow for super-compensation.
    Alan: Sounds like you're making great progress
    John: good to hear you're feeling better
    Spoons: slave to the program eh ;)
    More of the same from me though yesterday afternoon I found the gym. They had a couple of decent looking treadmills but unfortunately no aircon so did 20 minutes cardio on the bike instead of a run - ridiculously sweaty.
  • Spoons... where is that fluctuating LT pace run listed?  
    Jooligan.. I assume you're on a holiday rather than work?

    Last week's 8m MP was tough and later looking at my HR trace, it was completely unsustainable.  Yesterday I did an 8 with 5.5@LT.  Again HR was very high... Is this because I've been doing super slow stuff for the last 3 months?   The first 2m, I took it a bit easy, targeting 7:20 pace but HR was well in the red, so I took a 1 min walk then ran the last 3.5m to a fixed heart rate, and I was only achieving 7:58... (20s slower than target) and yet I was running at a HR which was at 12-15BPM faster than I'd be able to maintain for a marathon.   

    It's easy to just say that it will all come together, but I'm thinking it's unlikely to do so in time for Chester in 7 weeks.  I'll keep batting on and see what happens.
  • JooliganJooligan ✭✭✭
    NE: busman's holiday. I'm teaching at a summer camp on a massive campus on the outskirts of Zhuji which is 3hrs drive South from Shanghai. Just had my first day off today so only ran this morning as had a guided tour of Hangzhou today. Did loads of walking up steps though.
    Keep at it my beats/mile has definitely come down over this week as I've started to acclimatise to the heat.


  • Sounds an fantastic opportunity / experience.

    Another sobering experience for me again today. Set off for a 20 miler. I was running at a HR and effort level that felt around 8.15 ... but my watch was telling me I was doing 9:30.      I was getting a bit knacked and realised that perhaps that ultra is still very much in my legs - and I also realised that doing 20 would be a bit stupid, so I baled at 16.5.   Rest day tomorrow. Hopefully a couple of days of good sleep.

    Does anyone understand what physiologically happens when you "have a race in your legs".  Obviously for the first few days, it's all about muscle microdamage and fuel/enzyme imbalances.  But what it is 3 weeks later that affects performance?
  • Reg WandReg Wand ✭✭✭
    Old age NE.

    HA - I'm impressed that you manage to abstain during family holidays, I still like to get some peace when I am away with my mob.

    Sounds like your training is going well Alan., Spoons too, I noticed a very impressive long run on Strava.

    39 miles for me last week with an 18 miler on Sunday, preceded by 76 miles on the bike and a 3 mile brick run on Saturday. The long run came out at 7:25 but I struggled the last couple of miles as my energy levels dropped. Two big weeks planned and if I can survive I will be ready to taper.
  • NE  - the change-of-pace runs are described on page 15, and it’s used in the HM plans on page 228-231 (probably elsewhere too), all in “Faster Road Racing”.

    HA - Yes my MLR paces are about as fast as they’ve ever been at the moment. Feeling good.

    Big weekend Reg, nice work.

    As Reg, mentioned, I had a very positive long run yesterday. It was another progression run, tried not to worry about pace too much and just gradually built the effort before really going for it in the final 3 miles. I averaged 7:03/mi (vs 7:09/mi two weeks ago) and did the final 3 miles at 6:27/mi. Pleased with that at the end of a 105 mile week. 

  • HA77HA77 ✭✭✭
    Spoons - Starting to enjoy the progression runs yet? Sound like it went well.

    Jools - You're spot on about needing the recovery. I know that I usually struggle to get anything of substance done Fri-Sun, which is why I often flog myself Mon-Thurs. Tough training in those conditions over there.

    Reg - After a day spent running around after the kids I'm usually too knackered to do much anyway. I spent a fair while running around on the hilly campsite. My kids were pretending to be spitfires and I had to be a messerschmitt and get shot down regularly.

    NE - No idea what it is that takes weeks to recover. Good question though. 

    Did a hills + tempo session today. It'll probably be the last hill session for a while and I'll get back to more normal tempo/LT sessions leading up to Abingdon. Not sure how much the hills have helped but I think it's been worth trying.
  • AWCAWC ✭✭✭
    edited August 2017
    Hi guys - been off the grid a bit as been on hols for 2 weeks but have been mainly keeping at the running. I've done 3 weeks of P&D 12w schedule with a 17mi w/12mi@MP on Sunday which went really well. MP was 7:42/mi and I'm targetting sub-3:30 for Abingdon so things seem to be going well.

    NE: I would say my legs were only just recovered from my ultra when I started P&D on 31st July. My ultra was 24th June so that was 5 weeks and then beginning of week 1 felt a real struggle with me having to stop halfway through the first LT run for a breather. We all recover differently of course but it felt like I'd just snuck in enough recovery before I started the plan. Having said that the long runs have felt like a doddle because of the additional endurance I've gained during the ultra training so your legs should be much stronger.
  • Blimey, Joe. Not much luck the other morning. Thought you'd be a pro at inner tube changes now?

    Enjoy the ales, Alan. 

    Impressive consistency, Spoons. I especially like the sessions with hills reps and strides. And your MLRs are certainly speedy. Excellent long run as well. Do you have a time target for the half? Could run Thursday morning if you fancy - if so, let me know what you have on the plan. 

    Solid heat acclimation Jooligan. 

    Must admit I'm with Reg on the holiday running front. Time to yourself. 

    Well done on the MPing AWC. And there must be a mental effect that has some physical manifestations post race, NE. Certainly seems that way for me. 

    Solid weekend of running. Stayed with my parents in Wells. So grandparental help meant I got to have a crack at a parkrun without the buggy. Tried Shepton Mallet for the first time. Lovey old a Victorian park. Three lapper each with a hill. Pretty congested on the out and back. Was in third for the first two laps, then briefly first before coming second by a couple of seconds to a 15-17 whippersnapper. I'm still so mentally soft when it comes to a tight finish, but happy with 18:37 on a winding course for 95% effort. Sunday was then 18 mins (6:27 pace), 3 min rest, 18 (6:25), 12 (6:16) in the middle of 13.5 miles along the Strawberry Line. Really happy with the effort paces, especially as it was my biggest ever week - 72.1M. 


  • AlanBAlanB ✭✭✭
    NE - Get yourself in the cryogenic chamber regularly over the next few days. Then get one of Salazars staff to rub some special ointment in to your limbs (ask no questions). Before you know it you'll be racing 5k's and 10k's every other day.

    Good to see you back training JohnOz. Easy does it.

    That's some impressive LRs and MLRs you're knocking out Spoons. Great mileage too.

    Well done for getting any training in in those conditions Jooligan.

    Good training Reg, the bike parts being particularly impressive from what I've seen on strava.

    Hills are always worth doing HA. Hills are your friend..

    Well done AWC, I couldn't even imagine trying to do 12 miles at MP right now.

    Had a great time at the club training weekend. Managed 4 decent sessions, including my first speedwork session in months plus one core/flexibility session (ouch!). But more importantly the food was amazing and the evening entertainment was equally good. Spent every run absolutely bloated but it was worth it.

    Back to it again this week.
  • JooliganJooligan ✭✭✭
    Hills will help build strength like nothing other than specific S&C sessions can do HA.
    Shame on you SQ, allowing a whippersnapper to beat you if you were only at 95%. Cracking BAC session though.
    AWC: targeting sub 3:30 but running 17wi12@MP at 3:22 pace this far out?! Methinks you may be sandbagging/underestimating your potential.
    Alan: Sounds like a fab w/e
    Like it NE. No idea what the biological reasoning is but I advise regular low effort running during the week 5-7 miles twice a day if possible then race hard at the weekends to sharpen up. XC season coming up, GLCL road still on next month?, parkruns with 3M warm-up & 3M cooldown find some 10Ks, fell races etc. Took me a couple of weeks to get over my 53M ultra & maybe 3 to recover from Tenby IM following a similar program.
    I'm reading "The Long Hard Road Pt1: Nearly to the Top" Ron Hill's autobiography. His training & racing schedules were insane. I'd recommend it to anyone. Morning's were 5M easy, evenings 7-10M with 4M efforts alternating fartlek, hills & race pace (sub 5min/miling) then easier Friday lunchtime before racing 2-3 times over the w/e. He won his first marathon in 2:24 never going over 11M in training & in spite of a 2pm start, no gels, water stations etc! He only entered because "the thought of a weekend without a race was totally alien to me. For Aug 12th [1961] I could find no race in the adverts of AW other than the Liverpool City Marathon. I decided on that rather than not race at all." July 29th he'd raced a track 6M then 20 mins later a 2M, Aug 7th he raced a tough road 10M!
  • AWCAWC ✭✭✭
    Jools: yeah with 9 weeks still to go it does feel like my target is soft but because my last 3 efforts at going under 3:30 have ended in disaster because of a combination of glandular fever/food poisoning/injury I'm being ultra cautious. RH's book sounds great, I'll add it to my "to read list"!
  • runspoonrunrunspoonrun ✭✭✭
    edited August 2017

    HA - Yeah I am enjoying the progression runs actually, while hard it feels really good to be able to put in a fast pace at the end of a long run. Nice hills/tempo session, I hate hills but know they’re so good for leg strength.

    AWC - Great MP run, sounds like the target might be revising! :)

    SQ - No firm target yet. Obviously sub-80 is the next big milestone, but I suspect that might be a bit too fast for me quite yet. The Worcester 10K next month should give me an idea of where I am. I’ve got a 15 mile MLR tomorrow - you’re welcome to join but I see you’ve just run a 21 miler so suspect you won’t fancy that? Great MP session at the weekend.

    AlanB - Sounds like a good weekend!

    Jooligan - Sounds like a good read. I do sometimes wonder about some of the training you hear about runners from the 60s/70s. I’ve no doubt they were very tough people, and trained hard, but some of the stories do start to get a bit “four yorkshiremen” sometimes…

    As it is the summer holidays, the local track is open for use all day at the moment so I took advantage and headed up this morning for my first proper track session since leaving London. I had the track to myself, and it was so nice not having to worry about dogs or walkers who block the whole path!

    The plan was 2x1600m, 2x1200m and 2x800m, aiming for 18:00 pace - so 1:26/400m. Managed 5:45, 5:44, 4:17, 4:19, 2:51, 2:50 for an average of 1:26/400m. Very pleased with the pace and consistency especially as it was a humid morning and the legs felt a little heavy on the warm-up to the track. 

  • Reg WandReg Wand ✭✭✭
    Beyond three weeks, there doesn't appear to be any physiological reason for a post marathon hangover. In my experience I am pretty much recovered by then too. I guess you have also been through a taper and recovery so your training has been far from optimal. It might also point to the fact that your recovery was not handled well.

    At least I made it onto the Christmas card list to start with.

    Nice MP run capt Sandbag

    We'll have to re-post the marathon list as it's getting closer and we need to start pressurising the sandbaggers. What was your target Spoons?

    Nice PR SQ.

    Took the day off yesterday and, well I say took the day off I actually spent the day training. 105 miles on the bike in the morning followed by a 4km swim and a 6 mile run in the evening. Legs are feeling a bit tired after that. Not sure how Joe managed the 30+ hour week but I hope to go well over 20 hours this week.

    Lunch run and I am hoping the showers will have been fixed by the time I return. Altohugh the cold showefr might be good for my legs.



  • *delurks* I have just realised my last post (in which there was lengthy reasoning as to why my marathon retirement was required) was truncated at the bit where I used a forbidden character (made a sad face about Joe's woes on the bike). No great loss, I hear you cry ..,.

    NE - I've seen high heart rate and significantly slower paces routinely (sometimes by around a minute a mile) when I am becoming ill, or sleep deprived, and also two weeks post London when I still felt pretty run down. Normally the week or so after a hard race is absolutely abysmal in terms of beats per mile. No idea of the physiology but I kind of handwave it as a certain proportion of those beats have been earmarked for repair or immune function. Though I suspect it's more something about the amount of oxygen that can hitch a ride in those circumstances so that your muscle fibres end up being more anaerobically fuelled than in the normal situation.

    On hills, I am of the mind that they feed the masochistic trait that may well be necessary to be a runner. I don't search them out especially and usually have a whinge when I have to run up them. I live half way up a hill so they are hard to avoid. I read a study* that showed it was the effort expended that mattered, rather than the hill. They trained a group of runners on hills and measured the effort going in, then matched the efforts with a track based group. The track based runners improved just as much as the hill folks (at least at 5k).

    Lots of great running going on reported on here and seen on Strava. I am kind of plateaued at the moment, vaguely virus-ey and finding it a bit of a plod, but I have laid down 3 consecutive 50 mile weeks and managed a bit of quality within parkruns and a 5k race (17.45, felt like death, uphill all the way). I will be vaguely racing (i.e. could be a threshold run) a 10k this weekend near you, RSR - Pershore and a half next weekend.

    Reg - That sounds like my dream day off. Alas I take days off these days to go to school productions, or for half term.

    * and I will disregard all other studies that promote hills, as I resent running up the bloody things.
  • Reg WandReg Wand ✭✭✭
    Nice to hear from you Muddy. The trick with holiday is to build up an excess over your wife so that you are forced to just take days off to use it up. 
  • JooliganJooligan ✭✭✭
    The race results are in the public domain though Spoons & speak for themselves.
    Nice day off Reg.
    Fingers crossed this is the marathon where things go right for you AWC.
    Seems you are in reasonable form Muddy. Good luck in the 10K & HM. Let us know how they go.
    Hills are essential if you are hoping to race over any distance on hills. Especially those quad destroying downhills - no amount of track speed can develop the resilience in that direction. I know that leg speed & aerobic conditioning allows speedy climbing in fell races from road/track runners but in races with more than one serious descent hill specialists usually prevail.
    Another 2 laps of the campus this morning for 4.4M. Think I might be starting to acclimatise just as I'm almost done! Got to use the Olympic pool this afternoon - first time ever in a 50m - 2K done.
    Skipped the evening run in favour of a few cold beers by the local reservoir with a couple of quick dips to cool off.
  • I am not doing a 2017 marathon but hope I can jump in on the thread. I'm going to do a couple of halves in Autumn and hope to qualify for the championship race at London marathon. I might be asking a few questions if that's OK as I come from multisport rather than pure running.
    Phil
  • Reg WandReg Wand ✭✭✭
    Welcome Phil, HA will be delighted to have another triathlete (safe assumption?) on board  :D
  • Duathlete although former triathlete. Going to concentrate on running for a while to see what happens.
  • Great track session, spoons. Did it feel much faster than grass? Bet it did! Definite chance of a big PB at Worcester 10k for you. 15M too far for me tomorrow so catch up for a run once term starts. 

    That's a hell of a day's training, Reg. Great work. I'm a big fan of cold work showers - they're normally at a rushed time and it is the quickest way to stop sweating. 

    Great to to hear from you muddy. Your running on strava is looking fast and consistent. 

    Jooligan, I agree re race specificity - downhills can destroy you. Just as long as you know that pre-Snowdonia!

    Welcome Phil. Saw you on the 2:30 resurrected forum (purely looking for interest not realistic expectations!). Look forward to following your journey. 

    On holiday in Chichester this morning so I planned to do my tempo sandwich BAC session at the university track. Got there to see that is only just over a quarter of a track. The straight and a tiny bit of a bend. Built in 2012 and not touched since. Very random - look on google maps for a laugh. So I batted on for a progressive long run. Canal, marina, then twisty paths with lots of gates. Ran on feel and effort and pretty pleased with it as a work out. Incredibly, I got lost on a canal. There was one road junction of only about 10m. Whilst tired I got in a muddle and headed back down the canal only to see a women and dog I had passed a while ago. Ended up with 21M with progression from 10-19.

    Plan to do tempo sandwich on Friday and may or may not do a local hill race on Sunday. Either way, definitely having a cut back week next. What are people's usual plans for a cutback week?


  • Reg WandReg Wand ✭✭✭
    Just bumping the list, hopefully it was the most recent?

    Pen Llyn Ultra 29th July
    Northender - P&D/DIY - Target Time 22hr.

    North Downs Way 5th August

    Maccatheknacca

    Oxford Half 8th October

    RunSpoonRun - P&L 100 mi HM plan - Target Time 79:59

    Munich 8th Oct - OuchOuch 2.49-2.52

    Birmingham 15th October

    SteveMac - P&D/DIY - Target Time TBA

    Amsterdam 15th October

    Joe Bloggs-BR - DIY - Target Time 2:39


    Melbourne 15th October
    JohnOz - P&D 12/70 plan - Target time 2:59

    Abingdon 22nd October
    Reg Wand - DIY Plan  Target time 2:43

    HA77 - DIY Plan Target Time 2:30

    Tom-P&D/DIY 12/70 plan-Target time TBA

    AWC – P&D 12/55 – Target Time 3:29:59

    Coops - P&D gently gently version - Target time TBA 


    Autumn 100 21st October

    Maccatheknacca


    Eryri/Snowdonia 28th October

    Jooligan - DIY (P&D guided) Target Time sub 3:30 (aspirational sub 3:15)


    Frankfurt 29th October

    PJFrizzle - P&D up to 70mpw - TT 2:59:59 (A) 3:05 (B)

    Valencia 19th November

    Joe Bloggs-BR - DIY - Target Time 2:39

    OuchOuch   2.49-2.52

  • HA77HA77 ✭✭✭
    edited August 2017
    Philip - Welcome to the thread. Have you had any thoughts about following one of the P&D plans? What halves are you targeting for the champs time? As Reg alluded to, we've had some issues with too much tri talk on a running forum, mainly from Reg and Joe.  ;) There is a strict card system in place for tri talk. Reg and Joe are both on one yellow, another one and they're out.

    Reg - Thanks for putting up the list. Great day of holiday training. Hope your upcoming big weeks go well. Cold showers are the only way I can stop sweating before I get back to my desk after a lunch run.

    Muddy - good to hear from you. A few more solid weeks like the last 2 and you'll be ready for a marathon. I had my doubts as to how much hills would help me on a flat marathon course but thought it can't hurt to give it a go and there is so much anecdotal evidence out there for it. With the areas around work and home being pretty flat I didn't run many hills so I thought one targeted session a week might help. I also wanted to have a better run at XC this coming winter and, as Jools suggests, it's got to help with that.

    Jools - Agree very much about hill training for racing hilly courses. I've also included downhill sprints in my hill sessions. People are always surprised when their quads are thrashed after running hard downhill in a race when they never run hard downhill in training. Beers and a dip sounds like a good alternative session.

    Alan - Sounds like steady progress is continuing. Any thoughts about an Autumn marathon or still just waiting until London? I reckon you'd be in pretty good shape by October.

    AWC -  You can't allow for food poisoning and glandular fever when setting a target time. Some fine sandbagging indeed. Sounds like you're going well. Good to see.

    Spoons - Nice track session.

    SQ - You're at Abingdon too, aren't you? Great consistency recently. I wouldn't be worried about cutting back more than the P&D plans do. Maybe a 12 mile MLR, rather than your 20 mile LR and a couple of GAs with strides rather than LT or MP sessions.

    Did 10 miles with a Mona Fartlek at lunch yesterday, which went alright. Planned to do another MP/HMP session last night but felt I couldn't leave my wife to deal with a sick daughter and vomit everywhere so binned it. I'm feeling a bit tired anyway and probably would've planned a cut back week this week if I wasn't having the easy week on holiday next week. I'll see how I feel today and might get out tonight instead.
  • JooliganJooligan ✭✭✭
    I think SQ is targeting a sub-3 at Snowdonia HA
    Done Snowdonia twice SQ so I know full well how much damage the descent from Pen-y-Pass can wreak together with the long climb from Beddgelert & then die on the final 2M descent to Llanberis! Your 3 Hills of Cleeve sessions should be excellent training for it.
    Another 4.4M for me first thing & planning a repeat of yesterday's afternoon "training" as we finished work today. Couple of days sightseeing coming up: first in Zhuji the local city then Shanghai before flying back on Monday.
  • AWCAWC ✭✭✭
    Fair enough on the sandbagging guys! 3:20 is probably a more sensible target assuming no major illnesses
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