The Middle Ground

19699709729749751077

Comments

  • AndrewDAndrewD ✭✭✭

    Dan - it's an adapted version of Daniels 10k plan (because his lightest mileage plan is for people doing 40-50 miles per week, I have adapted it to fit my 20-25 miles a week).

    Having not done any faster than easy pace running for 5 weeks as I was finding cricket and regular faster sessions were not mixing well, I thought it might be sensible to at least test myself last night to see where I am before hitting a parkrun next week.

    So the plan was for a 2 mile warm up, 2 miles at tempo pace and then a mile warm down. Theoretical tempo pace, calculated from my 5k in early June, was 7.21 m/m. Actual tempo pace for the 2 miles came in at 7.38 and 7.32. the first mile was on grass, which may have slowed me slightly, but overall I can see that I have lost about 15 seconds a mile since early June.

    If this translates the same into race performance then I will be about 50 seconds down on my 5k time from June, so would expect something around 22.10 next week.

    Plenty of weeks to regain this fitness (and more) before a 10k pb attempt in November.

  • JGavJGav ✭✭✭
    Still off running. Thought about going for a gentle 2 miles but when walking down the stairs to the changing rooms at work I felt a twinge. Ah well, better to rest it properly to make it worse.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    They all count, Dr Dan!

    jgav, what are you doing to assist this injury along in terms of exercises, ice/heat, nasaids?

    Andrew, that seems a lot to lose when you have still been running  reasonably consistently. Don't underestimate the impact of a mile on grass.

    Just a  nice easy 5 mile recovery yesterday and a rest day today.

  • AndrewDAndrewD ✭✭✭

    DT - I was a bit surprised myself, and did wonder if I was just a bit tired from my long run the day before.

    Rest day today and cricket tomorrow, then see how I feel for Sunday - probably will do 4 or 5 miles, but we shall see.

  • alehousealehouse ✭✭✭
    AD: I think I would ignore any possible conclusions from your 2 miler! It was on grass, you were probably more tired than you thought...and your training has been going quite well! I would expect you to be closer to 21 than 22 next week! So no pressure!

    And well done today, I see, DT

    Have been working the Achilles hard over the last few days, as advised...and it is beginning to know it! Had a couple of hard sessions on the anti-grav treadmill as well, but only around 80% bodyweight. The plan is to gradually up that over the next two weeks if there isn't a reaction.

    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Thanks....18.24 today for a 35 second pb. A rather substantial leap and bodes very well for coming longer races.
  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭
    Wow!!!! Outstanding!
  • Curly45Curly45 ✭✭✭
    Woot DT19 that is a huge pb! Well done.

    Alehouse I have done two of Copenhagen's parkruns - I prefer the beach one, but the one near the conference centre is pretty. Glad to hear achilles is not too badly damaged.

    I agree with everyone else Andrew dont worry about the tempo and go out for something fast and see if you can hold on.

    Sorry to hear no improvement JGav keep resting is the right thing.

    So a much smaller pb for me today, at Bushy parkrun, including a full ankle turn 50m from the finish! Now results have been corrected, I have to be happy with 19:11. 3 second pb. Significant as I set the previous time in April 2015, the week before running 3:15:28 at London. 77.90% wava, one of the benefits of getting older eh ;).

    Only annoying thing is I seem to be having a season of *just* missing a significant time (sub 40 for 10k, sub 28 for 7k, sub 11 for 3k, sub 19 for 5k). Unlikely I will get another parkrun opportunity for some time with upcoming races. Ho hum. I still do not have enough speed for one of my more outlandish goals this year, so will need to keep plugging away and see what turns up.

    Back off to see my occupational therapist friend on Monday for more exercises. Am sure the loss of form was responsible for the ankle turn on the grass finish.



  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭
    Another great run!! Fab stuff.
  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭
    Oh and don't belittle WAVA ... getting older is real! 

    Not so good at parkrun for me ... a very rare stitch at half way so that was that! 21:03. :-(
  • Curly45Curly45 ✭✭✭
    I hate the stitch! :(

    We call WAVA - the last resort of the old, the slow and the female (jokingly of course, its actual a fairly useful measure for comparisons across gender)
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Hard luck, Dr Dan. You can't win every week.

    Well done, Curly. Annoying to be so close to those threshold times. Still a pb though.

    Today for me was the perfect storm of events. As I was travelling 40 minutes each way to this parkrun I planned my build up like a proper one off race. I have been guilty of never getting to a parkrun rested but also not sucking it up when it starts hurting as I think there's always next week. However, with a load of longer races booked in over September and October, then xc, it wasn't going to be that easy to have a proper pb attempt until December.

    Today my mentality was fixed as a race, conditions were perfect, the course was completely flat and I wore my new vaporflys which are amazing. It's like they want you to go faster and each footstep is spring loaded driving you forward. 

    In the circumstances, as long as weather is sensible, I'm going to race next Sundays half in an attempt to tick off another distance pb for year. I've pbd in 4 of 6 distances so far with half Mara and 10k to tick off. Last year I got a clean sweep of 7/7.

    20-22 planned tomorrow to tick off my 4th of 6 long runs. 
  • Curly45Curly45 ✭✭✭
    I think we all do that with parkruns DT19, I have a favoured course if "going for a fast one", today wasnt it but closest fast one. Still 35 secs is amazing gap of time. Gives me hope for the season ahead as well.

    Enjoy your long run tomorrow. I shall be rounding out my week with a nice 14 I think.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    edited August 2017
    This ought to be my biggest weeks training in 2 years and the first time I'll run over 50 miles in a week in a long time. That follows July being my biggest mileage month ever and June being in my top 5. That all had to feed in at some point.

    Going forward forward the next 7 weeks my schedule has 2 sessions a week. 1 is MP session and other is vo2 intervals. I am debating swapping the intervals for 4 or 5 miles at threshold. I just think this is more relevant to the ultimate race.

    Anyone tell me if this is a good or bad idea?
  • Curly45Curly45 ✭✭✭
    Always VO2 intervals or a variety of intervals that involve running various paces faster than target race pace?

    If the former, I would recommend swapping out *some* of those sessions for other sessions (probably less but longer reps AND shorter but more intense). If the latter all basis should be covered by these anyway.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    I've got a range of sessions.....3 x 1 mile, 6 x 800, 10 x 400. The paces are all vo2 for the distances, so none of that x distance at 5k pace etc.

    I improved my wava today by 1.5%. Bizarre that the distance my training least suits is my best score.
  • Curly45Curly45 ✭✭✭
    edited August 2017
    Dr. Dan is better at the this than me in terms of scientific side. Here is my take though, so in a way all of those will train VO2 max because it is not a fixed point thing in terms of when systems switch, but a range.

    I think of it like this:
    intervals shorter than 2 mins = building leg speed (or as I call 10 x 400m - the endurance speed session)
    2-4 mins running = VO2 max building, assuming fairly short recovery - I would do 60 secs on 6 * 800
    4+ = building your ability to run at the pace you have for longer, recoveries might be 90secs here, but could be up to 2:30 depending on experience

    So with the 3 x 1 schedule already covers what most of us mean by "threshold" - the ability to hold a comfortably hard pace for a given time. Now you can take that further out with stuff like 3 x 2000m or 3 x 2 miles, or you can work some slightly faster stuff into your MP work. A great session I like is laps, alternating between marathon pace and half marathon pace. Its amazing how quickly MP starts to feel like a recovery! Alternatively you could scrap the MP session and put some MP on the long run...maybe one to do later in the program?

    14 miles for me today, was fine until 13, but felt pretty rough the last mile. Seem to have lost three lbs through dehydration (certainly not normal for me) so that would probably explain it! Happily loading up on food and drinks now though :)
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Curly, thanks for your thoughts on the above.

    I had much the same experience yesterday having not got out until gone 10am for my 20. First 15 cruised by then I very suddenly overheated and crashed. This was made worse by the realisation at about 18 miles that the route would be 21 miles which when you're death marching is a long way. Fortunately 20 came in right outside a pub so I stopped my run there and they gave me a pint of ice cold water which did the trick just enough to allow me to waddle the last mile home. 

    Off to spin shortly.
  • Curly45Curly45 ✭✭✭
    Good work though DT19 - I always think a few heat runs are a good idea, just in case its like that on race day!

    5 mile recovery for me this morning (9:41 avg OUCH!). Then 13 miles cycled with a coffee in the middle. Stopped off to see my Occupational Therapist friend again. Good news is my left glute is now the same size as my right and I am using both and am much more stable.

    A further four exercises to do to work on:
    core stability through to the sagittal plane
    arches of my feet
    co-ordination and glute activation at the same time
    trapezius strenth - to help with arm action

    I am going to be busy over the coming weeks ;)
  • JGavJGav ✭✭✭
    So I got out for a run yesterday, did 30 mins easy. Felt the calf start twinging a little in the middle so eased back on the pace. Finished in around 5.45m/km (sorry, I normally use km rather than miles and struggle to convert in my head).

    Followed it up with a 40km bike this morning, with a 10mile flat out effort in the middle. Felt great to be on the bike, calf loved it too. First time on the bike in a month.
  • Curly45Curly45 ✭✭✭
    JGav I often find the bike really good if I am struggling with running! Well done.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Yes, I think there are definite benefits to suffering in some training long runs.

    This is the longest I have gone without physio in years and I feel quite well aligned. I never used to do any strength work at all then after London I started doing bodypump 1-2 times a week and lots of press-ups. At first I had a lot of aches and pains but having persevered I am feeling much better for it.

    Don't go too hard too soon jgav. If there is still a twinge you should limit to active recovery short and slow.

    So, the weather forecast sunday is looking reasonable for my half. I am debating what pace is realistic off Saturdays 5.55 average. Mcmillan doesn't help as even off Saturdays time, it throws up a half time that is just slower than my pb. Fundamentally 5k has always been my worst time and half marathon my best time, and given my training this year I don't see any reason why that will have changed. I am thinking 6.15-6.20mm is not over ambitious?

  • Curly45Curly45 ✭✭✭
    DT19 I ran a 1:28:51 off 20:03 a few years ago...so thats about 20 secs a mile difference. It was stand out performance at the time mind and I was paced by a friend (she was running at her MP!).

    So I think 6:20 might be achievable. I would recommend setting off at that pace, but definitely no faster, and see how long you can hold it for. You are in good shape as you know so you may surprise yourself :)
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    last Autumn, I did parkrun either side of the main races and did 19.10 and 19.17 so about 6.10 pace. I ran 3 halfs all at 1.25, the final one in Peterborough at 6.26 pace (course measured 13.29!) so I do think a 20 second differential would be reasonable. I'd be happy to go sub 85 and pb, but equally looking for evidence to suggest I should tackle the Birmingham mara at sub 3 pace. I also have the Worcester half 2 weeks later so I guess if I get to the end on Sunday and feel I could have gone harder then I have another chance pending.
  • Curly45Curly45 ✭✭✭
    Let the half be the guide on sub 3 aspirations.

    I would say (not in that sort of shape so dont know), my experience has been in general that a 1:22 is needed for a sub 3 conversion. BUT this depends hugely on how you convert at the full, experience of pacing etc.

    I am a poor converter at full, turning a 1:29 into 3:15 whereas the calculators predict a 3:10, but that is mainly down to lack of experience at the distance.

    Do you use Fetch? There is a retune you Reigel number tool.

    Basic formula is:
    t2 = t1 * (d2 / d1)[to the power of]1.06

    But my pbs retune that 1.06 to 1.07
    Which is then taken into account in the race time calculator so that it gives me slightly more breathing room on conversion of 5k to 10k for example.

    Actually, I think you can use this tool without being registered:
    https://www.fetcheveryone.com/cms-37

    This uses pbs of all the registered athletes rather than the standard formulas and claims to be within 5% over 75% of the time!

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭
    On my phone this week, so don't expect much typing!

    20.2 hilly miles on Sunday morning at 8:39/mi ... nothing since but planning an MP session later today.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Curly, yes I have a fetch profile and have used that calculator. For a man it wants a 1.21 half to suggest sub 3. 

    Didn't feel great yesterday, think weekends running and a few drinks Sunday night took it out of me. Managed a slow plod around my planned 10 miles, followed with a spin class this morning. Probably a short miles tomorrow then less with strides Friday and a rest day Saturday, ready for Sunday. 
  • AndrewDAndrewD ✭✭✭
    Right, not been here for a while. First up - big congrats on the massive pb DT! Told you that if you treated a parkrun like a target race then you'd see a massive improvement!

    Keep the comeback carefully JGav.

    Good training still Dan!

    Apologies to anyone else I missed.

    Had a quiet week here for various reasons, which may not be a terrible build up for a parkrun on Saturday. 5 miles this evening felt ok (no better, no worse).
  • AndrewDAndrewD ✭✭✭
    edited September 2017

    Been thinking about a rough training cycle plan for the next year or so(!). If it works well, then it will form the basis for my annual training cycles for the next few years.

    Traditionally I have tried to do base work Jan-March, 10k plan from April-June, have a slight rest then try to get some good 5k training and racing in over the summer, before a further 10k plan in the autumn and then rest October-Dec.

    I have found this year that trying to do any sessions during the meat of the cricket season is leaving me injury prone and unable to hit paces in sessions, so my plan is basically to re-jig the whole year as follows:

    Rest of 2017

    10k plan to mid November (20-22 miles per week including sessions)

    Mid Nov - end Dec - Rest (15-20 miles per week all easy paced)

    2018

    Jan - April - short base period followed by 5k plan for a target race in early/mid April (mileage increasing to 25 per week including sessions)

    Mid April - end May - rest (a couple of weeks off completely and then 15 miles per week all easy paced)

    June - August - base (15-20 miles per week all easy paced and play cricket)

    Sept - mid Nov - 10k plan again (c.25 miles per week including sessions)

    Mid Nov - Dec - Rest/base train (c.20 miles per week all easy paced)


    Does that sound like a sensible mix?

  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Andrew, yes I think I have had that (or close to) performance in me for a while, I just needed to properly commit to a parkrun! I can go back to how I was for a bit now that I have finally got that monkey off my back.

    For me (and that is me looking at you) in that plan there are 3 months of rest in the year and another 2 periods of base. I think your body will have adapted to the current training load and as such isn't going to be so tired to need/respond to that much rest/base. I am also not seeing a great deal of difference in what constitutes rest/base. I am not one for putting plans together but for me there appears too many phases that aren't particularly progressive. I just think there could be some more challenge in there and cut the rest back as your training load isn't that substantial.

Sign In or Register to comment.