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Overdone it?
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Give your 5k race full effort and see what comes out, then people will be able to get a handle on the sorts of paces you might aim for in your quality session. Normally I do a very easy 3 or 4 miles the day before a 5k with some strides once warmed up to help get things activated. People underestimate how much warm up is needed for a 5k race too: 2 miles minimum with strides tacked on for me.
Pete - Those estimates are pretty silly, everyone routinely ignores but having said that you've been training well for a good while now, barring the bathroom slip incident, so who knows what you could be capable of ?
Are your hr zones correctly set? Also it might take a bit of time to 'get to know you'. My new watch quite helpfully not only tells me the recovery period but also what I should do in it. usually if recovery is less than 20 hours it says train as normal.
I'm not sure the advisor output is highly dependent on zones, but it is dependent on how you use your watch. When you're done exercising, you need to pause the activity but leave the heart rate monitoring on for around 2 minutes or until it flashes up you've reached recovery heart rate. The device measures how quickly your heart rate settles, and also how quickly your body moves out of the stressed heart rate pattern (very regular beats, vs irregular when not stresed) to then determine the recovery time. Obviously if you pause and then save the activity right at the end of a race, without cooling down, it only has the most stressed part of the heart beat pattern to work with, and then gives enormous recovery times, which may then be corrected by further recovery/cooldown/easy runs within the predicted recovery period.
Pete, generally, I take the recovery advice. At the very minimum I take it as a hint to cross train or do a very low effort recovery jog.
Muddy, that's interesting as I never do that. I will see how that works out going forward, particularly after racing on sunday.
Started furining after like 6 moths, didi half maraton 1:50.
So i went for a run yesterday like 5 K, but today i am feeling really under the weather, weak, achy, almost like there is flu coming, i forogot, but is it normal when you start runing again ? Is my body geting used to it again ?
Hi Bfinger,
I wouldn't see that as normal symptoms in returning to running, unless in that period you have let yourself get hideously out of shape or you are operating at a substantial calorie deficit maybe.
I'd take it easy for a day or 2 and see what develops before setting out again.
well done on the race prize, Muddy!
DT - Are you racing Wolverhampton Half ? I'm doing Kenilworth as another big marathon paced session. Then Vale of York half next weekend, racing, with a bit of luck and a drop in mileage.
I might hit the uncharted territory of around 70 miles this week if I can crank out a parkrun with a decent warm up tomorrow. An 11m progression run last night had me feeling pretty good, so I think my fitness is getting there.
I read back on the thread to around the time of training for London 2017 to compare how I was feeling then, compared to now, and it is a world of difference. Then I was struggling with the hip tightness whilst getting in several easy paced long runs over a 10 week block, as well as racing Wilmslow. It's interesting how I was complaining a lot back then about tiredness. I'm not feeling that way now, despite arguably smashing most of my Sunday long runs (and running very easily in the week) off the back of a V02max session on Saturday mornings. I guess this may mean I haven't done enough yet (still 2 weeks of decent training to go before taper).
Incidentally the thread was a really riveting read back then, full of wit and drama as everyone started to fall apart through the training with some spectacular gains (Lou's parkrun, Skinny's hilly half). There was also incident and accident - Skinny and McF suffering majorly in particular. 'Bantz' from Mace and Skinny. Lit even made both spelling and grammatical errors, and owned up !
We should give ourselves a big collective pat on the back.
Muddy, yes wolves on sunday will be raced. I feel short changed this year by halfs with Bath and Droitwich cancelling, Liverpool coming short then Wilmslow being rather hot.
This week, with a 4 miler tonight, will be my highest ever mileage week thanks to Sundays 20 pushing into Monday. Like you however, I don't feel particularly tired which leaves me suspicious that I am not training hard enough. I put it down to my easy paced runs remaining at the same pace they have for the last 3 years despite my own gains and so therefore my body is not getting quite as much strain despite the higher miles.
Ahhh the glory days of the overdone it thread
Another pot, Mr Mud, congrats.
I have to ask though, every time I pop in, I note you've raced this half at MP, that 5k, at xx pace, this 10k at xx pace. Do you ever just race flat out these days old son?
ps I agree with you on the recovery advisor v potential times thing on the garmins.
I wonder if doing track sessions skews the data quite a bit.
For instance, on Tuesday, I did a 6miles Threshold session at 6.01 pace on a track. The watch thus picked it up as a way quicker session, as it overestimates the distance.
Mapping that against the HR (which itself is wrist based, so may not be accurate either), and all of a sudden it's building a picture that you're handling a much faster pace at a miles lower HR than it would really take.
So when i'm smashing myself to do a 17.00 5k like on Monday, which could perhaps have been in the low 16.50s if it wasn't so windy, the watch is in "dream" world suggesting low 15s!!
Legs felt heavy before the start but were fine once the course evened out. My lungs were a different story. I feel that next month I could achieve perhaps a 20:30 without too much trouble. I realise that this isn't what I'm training for.
The posts above regarding the recovery advisor and heart rate zones are interesting. I use a Forerunner 235 and I'm not sure if I've set the latter correctly. Is there any way of accurately telling without going for a HR test etc? After today's effort my RA suggests a rest of 29 hours.
Did anyone else do the LFOTM today? Would be great to meet up with/chase others.
Nice one David.
I've done that race a few times. I prefer the one lapper, I suspect it's a bit quicker, but hard to be certain as I got the other course on a wet and windy day, in the same week I'd banked another good 5k time.
Not the easiest course to factor in unless you work in central London. The midday start makes it a day off work job otherwise.
Maybe next year look out for the Battersea Park 5ks. All Monday nights between May and August. Very fast course, great standard race, and 7 different ones to choose from, as well as a really fun 3x1mile relay.
Not as up on HRs as these guys, but as the roughest estimate ever, finishing very hard at the end of a proper 5k raced effort has to give you some sort of ballpark figure.
Stevie - Cheers, congrats on the podium 5k race. I booked a morning off work for the report
On the racing front, therein lies a story ... I’ve done a few all out races this year: Vale of York 10 - 59 something, Hereford 5k - 17.37 (not flat, windy), Market Drayton 10k - 35.59 (bloody hot), recent parkrun - 17.22. The ones I was aiming at in the Spring, with all the big race session work, were cancelled due to the snow. Other possibilities were nixed by work or my ex being unreliable on the childcare front. (Village Bakery half, Wilmslow half, Hull half, recent Mid Cheshire 5k all wasted entries amongst others). Add in a couple of spells of downtime with injury and school holidays then build in all the tapering for the last minute cancellations, and it all amounts to a very inconsistent year.
So I thought I’d reset back in June and get the marathon scheduled early Autumn, lay down some miles and threshold work through the summer (dislike racing in heat) and use the marathon build up as a base period for some autumn racing. Fingers crossed I can recover from the marathon in time for the Birmingham half and/or GSR.
Will be at GSR myself if you do end up at that one
Average HR during the 5k was 177. I would say this is fairly close to my max. It certainly felt pretty hard.
Muddyfunster - My time yesterday has indeed given me confidence in the training. I am ready to now build in some progression runs (I will try and mix these up to keep things interesting). In a couple of week's time I'll start the tempo runs. I may post back with an update to get some ideas on what I should be doing for the first few sessions.
Thanks for the suggestion on the max HR test. I will give this a go at some point.
Thanks again.
Speaking of parkruns even though last week was all easy running, albeit with no rest day, a parkrun on fairly tired legs did not appeal by the time Saturday morning rolled around, so I freshened up with a little fartlek session round the woods at the top of my road instead.
Sunday morning took me off to the Kenilworth Half Marathon. The travel and registration logistics counted against me so I couldn't get the miles in beforehand and was travelling with a clubmate (formerly of this thread!) so the miles afterwards weren't possible. I ran 10m marathon-ish effort off not much warm up, then picked it up for the last 3 miles, which seemed to fly by. It was quite fun from my perspective but I know from experience that when you're dragging through the last 3 miles of half the last thing you need is someone cruising past you, so it was done with the deepest of apologies and encouragements to those I passed. In my head anyway.
The new course (slight twist on the old one) had us finishing on an out and back along a crowded high street and that gave me the opportunity for a good leg stretch to the finish (1.22.17 on chip). Overall effort was slightly above marathon effort (152bpm, vs 150 bpm), so happy with that outcome, again on an undulating course on what turned out to be a warm day. Incidentally there was some spectacular running ahead of me from no less than 5 other v45s.
After a soak in the bath at home and some feet up on the sofa, I felt some 'marathon-approaching-not-done-enough-today-stress', so got out for a further 6.5m later in the day to make it a decent double.
This week is already proving tricky so may have to compromise a rest day again to get some reasonable mileage down. Fortunately I still don't feel too beat up, at the 3 weeks go mark which normally initiates the taper.
David, well done on the 5k progress. I wouldn't take your average hr over a 5k as representing your max. Your watch should also tell you what your hr peaked at. In my half marathon yesterday, during an eye balls out finish I hit 186 so for me I have my data set at 190 which I see as about right.
Muddy nice mp run. When I did Solihull at mp in April, I couldn't hold off any longer and at 10 miles, whilst not going full beans, I let go and had the same mild awkwardness as I cut through the field.
I went to Wolverhampton yesterday. I had already run 46 miles last week and knew that a wu and cd would give me my highest ever mileage week, which happened and I ended up on 62 miles.
Regardless I still set my sights on pb chasing. I ran this race last year in 84.23 which was then a 40 second pb. It isn't an easy race with an incredible amount of twists and turns, a light field up top and much of the courses climbing at miles 10, 12 and 13 when you want to cruise.
I was going pretty well, however found myself largely alone from 7 miles. The climb at 10 crushed me and I think the weeks miles were probably enhancing my fatigue. Following an eye balls out sprint finish (garmin has the scraps at 4.38mm pace) whilst heaving violently the whole time I came in at 83.35 for a 4 second pb and 49 seconds faster than last year (which I tapered properly for) and 10th place. This still only got me to 4th v40 however.
I was obviously pleased to pb but slightly disappointed by the margin. I cant help thinking my best shape was lost in the March snow and the Liverpool measurement cock up.
I have Worcester half in 2 weeks, which I also did last year and was able to run it 40 odd seconds faster than Wolves. I plan therefore to properly taper for this, as I did last year.
5 mile low effort recovery run over lunch has loosened things off a bit.
Max heart rate on the 5k was 190 according to my watch.
Afternoon all,
Just had a bit of catch up...
DT - excellent work at the Wolves HM, I reckon you'll knock a chunk off that at Worcester.
Muddy - good work at Kenilworth, things are looking good for the marathon. Good that you're not feeling too beat up either.
DH83 - Well done at the 5k, I reckon you'll be close to sub 20 by the end of the year if you continue with the consistent training and introduce the quality session you are planning.
Pete - good luck with your new watch, I got a new watch about year ago and I still don't know how to use most of the functions.
I've been jogging around a bit. Need to get a race entered to get some focus I think...
Incidentally, here's a snippet from an email I received last week following the latest instalment of the insane 5K I did a few weeks ago...
I am hoping the slightly cooler weather combined with the increase in fitness will see a 20min 5k this year. I don't think that's too unrealistic. I'm keeping my sights firmly on the LLHM next year though.
I did some gym cycling the other week and my HR went up (gradually) to 178 which is higher than 220 - 50 (my age) but actually felt that I could have kept on pushing it up a bit further but eased off just in case - presumably the HR monitors on a gym bike aren't very reliable.
Well done DT and Muddy on your races and prizes and on staying alive Tommy (keep it up) and nice running Pete.
A couple of years ago you may remember I did the Manitou Incline in Colorado so last weekend I did it again with a running colleague with a 34 min 10k PB - took me 53 mins to travel the 0.89 miles this time versus 34 mins 2 years ago. My pal took just under 31 mins so at least it made me feel quite good about the time I did two years ago.
On the running front still no dice for me - I did manage to run 3 miles the other week pain free but then a week later couldn't manage to run 2 mins, walk 2 mins for longer than 3 reps before the foot pain started again. All the butt work must be good for something though.
Sorry to hear that the running is still not off the ground. I may not have mentioned this here but I've been following a physio program since June which has eradicated my Achilles soreness. She discovered I had a weaker right side posterior kinetic chain so prescribed me loads of single leg stuff around the glutes and hamstrings to promote equalisation. Gradually with that program, it got better, over a rising tide of mileage too.
Btw the gym heart rate detectors with the metal sensors are just bonkers. I've been wearing my chest strap and looking at 90 bpm at my watch while trundling away, when the machine is showing 200+.
That photo in no way does it justice.
2760 steps (some of them double height) with an average gradient of about 45% and a max of 68% - its brutal.