Moraghan Training - Stevie G

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  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    Nice one Reg. Any word on the job situation? Do you have to have had 2 years service to benefit, or is there a chance you might get a bit of a kiss off.


  • 8 weeks tax free plus 1 months notice so hopefully enough time to find something  and enough to get through Christmas should the market be a bit flat.

    I'm on Gardening leave too so that's a bonus. I'll have barely done any work this year at this rate :D
  • PeteMPeteM ✭✭✭
    Good training as ever SG but also Reg and Ric (and cycling Ric; impressive mph!)

    Back to the Vaporfly's; 15 secs per mile is about 4% for most of us so your experience fits Nike claims Muddy. That's over 3 mins on a half and if I could get that I'd reluctantly splash the big bucks I guess.

    I think I could easily tell how much improvement they brought just by doing one of my usual routes on a typical sort of day (no temp or wind extremes), put in usual effort and just compare times. Couldn't we all do that? Alternatively if you have done enough recent parkruns at full effort just do one in them and compare to previous in similar conditions. I've looked into Vaporfly a bit more and they are seemingly not available in typical men's sizes at the moment, but they are in women's. I've enthused a lady colleague I have run with a lot for many years and she has just bought a pair and will run Abingdon Marathon in them at the end of next week. She should be a good indicator as she's very experienced and has done loads of marathons including Abingdon before. I reckon she would have been 3'10-3'15 pre Vaporfly's so we'll see and I'll report back after. If she gets close to or even breaks 3 I'm definitely in! 
  • Sorry to hear about the job Reg, I hope you get something sorted soon. On the plus side, at least you've been more of a 'career' athlete this year!

    Tidy session as per usual SG. Looking forward to see what you make of the GSR - not long now.

    I'd love to try out the Vaporflys, mainly for the recovery benefit that I read a lot about. Saying that, I find it difficult reasoning to myself when buying an £80 pair of shoes, so they may have to wait!


    Very limited running for me, and likely unable to run GSR, as what seemed like tightness in the calf soon turned to weakness in both the calf and ankle - despite nothing of note being found during a sports massage. Quite irritating, but going to be working on strengthening the leg and ticking over on the turbo to try not to lose fitness.
    Strangely, part of the ache is the top of the anterior tibialis muscle, by the shin, and can't seem to find much about aches there.

    However, good news is that I've got a ballot place for London - I say good news, however normally I celebrate not getting it... Not sure quite how I feel now that I'm in it  :D perhaps will defer to 2020 and try to get a good year in
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    There's no way in hell they are going to make a 3 1/2min difference for a half, based on nothing extra :)
    That'd need some sort of magic pogo jumping boots :smiley:

    Muddy - there's your challenge, put in a 1hr 13-14 half, and we'll all be straight in the queue :)

    That'd be 7 mins difference over a marathon. Our top lady Jill has a 2hr 57 pb, but if she does put a 2hr 50 in, I would take that as being hitting her potential, rather than just the shoes (as I mentioned the other day, 1hr 19 half, sub 29 5miler. Lit as a comparison, 1hr 21 half, 2hr 52 marathon)

    Pete - your lady sounds a better test - presuming she has made a fair transition from half to marathon (say, double plus no more than 10mins), and as per Jill isn't "due" such a big improvement.


    Reg - that is exceptionally generous! That'd be the equivalent of statutory for someone who has worked 8-10 years at a place! I don't think by law they have to give you any pay off.

    Matt - a real shame no GSR for you! Unlucky on London ;)

    No idea how GSR will go.  Probably isn't a bad plan to use the threshold pace of 5.52 pace as a base line, and see how I go against that each mile. 
  • Stevie G said:
    15 seconds a MILE?!

    The only controlled experiment would be you running the same effort, conditions, day, feelings in 2 pairs of shoes at the same time. Regrettably until cloning takes place that can't happen :(
    I can link you to the two sessions on Strava if you like. I was a non-believer and set out to try to do as controlled an experiment as was possible. If anything I should've been more fatigued for the run in the Vaporflys which came later in the week after a Tuesday session and a medium long on the Wednesday. Runs were same heart rate, same route, same weather conditions. The comparison shoes were new Saucony Freedom ISO.

    Sorry to hear of the injury Matt. I tore my ant tib pre London 2017 - sounds similar to that - burning sensation down my shin when it happened.Then stiffness and soreness and dorsiflexion ruined.

    I'm in for London 2019 too - got the mag yesterday. I'm all over the marathons now ! :smile:  (posted Hull report on Overdone It? thread).
  • Stevie G said:

    Muddy - there's your challenge, put in a 1hr 13-14 half, and we'll all be straight in the queue :)


    I think when I tried them out over a 5 and 10k in successive weeks, I ran 17.09 out of nowhere for the 5k on non-optimal course (pb is 17.02) and didn't feel like I'd tried. Ditto for the 10k, low 35's. About a fortnight earlier (in the Saucony's) I ran 17.4x for 5k on a similar course profile. Of course it's a one off gain - further improvements require committed training ! So that's me out of the reckoning for a 1.13 half ;)
  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭
    Fellraiser! well spotted Bus.

    I've also got pairs of Salomon Speedtrak and Inovate X-Talon 225 in play. 
    I alternated these all last winter, and as things stand, the only thing which is likely to wear is the upper on the Speedtrak.

    As for my bio-mechanics. Those have changed over the years, as I have changed.

    It's all too easy to just run with whatever style gets you around the course the fastest. And if that style is inefficient, it won't register because you'll be more concerned with your lungs exploding and all other areas of knackeredness.

    It's a bit golf swing in getting things right. It needs to be thought about - If you want.

    🙂

  • PeteMPeteM ✭✭✭
    I'm more inclined to believe Muddy's scale of improvement and would be keen to hear Wool's view as another advocate (though I suspect the faster you are the 4% declines and the elite would only get maybe 1-2%). Wool did 82'xx I think for Windsor Half and on such a tough curse think maybe 1'25/1'26 would have been his target without the wonder shoes (yes even allowing for your view that all these users are also in the form of their life SG!).

    The lady in my club is a regular marathon runner but has suffered a lot with injury in recent years and often has nightmare runs when it is really hot (witness VLM and Maidenehad Half this year). However when fit and on mild days (both likely for Abingdon) she would do about a 1'30 half and 3'10 marathon (last Abo was 3'08, VLM best 3'04). That fit you test criteria SG? if she gets sub 3 or even sub 3'05 I think we all need get on this bandwagon. She is trying our her new shoes at her track session tonight (not one I'm going to, but should have some feedback tomorrow).    
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    Muddy. I volunteer to test them.
    If everyone on the thread chuckz a tenner in I'll go fetch a pair and report back.
    (Open to lurkers too, pm me)

    :smiley:
  • Reg WandReg Wand ✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    SG - They are really big on their core company values, I think it would be difficult for them not to offer something. Anyone less than 2 years is getting 8 weeks. I've only been there 4 months :D

    Sorry to hear about the injury MH. I have a London place, not sure if I will target it yet though. I'm thinking about focusing on Wokingham and chucking a few long runs in post Wokey if I'm going well and injury free. Not sure how long GFA lasts but I may have to do one this year.

    Just reading the last few posts has me in two minds about the Vaporflys. I wouldn't mind having a pair in the draw, like a special weapon for when I know I am in good shape and I have a fast race to do.

  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭
    Yay - sounds like vaporflys are the answer to ageing then :-)

    Bad news Matt - speedy recovery. ...

    Reg/SG, quality thresholding!

    Some quality training time ahead then Reg?

    Got a Strava "uh oh" today for a hil segment I was doing on my run home. Bit odd, as the run it was part of was done in 2016! Anyway, had to give it a go, and am now the CR holder again. Problem is, it as exactly the same time, so a joiny CR and who knows whether matey got his email!

    Also, I felt ok and worked hard tonight, but the pace was still way down! Hey ho, it'll be fine when the vaporfly trails come out!
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2018

     It's clear there's "something" in it, it's just as anoraks we want to know how much :)

    I just spent about 40mins smashing through the stats, pbs in the top 13 this year, past performances of others, versus other half marathons. Versus Run Britain rankings, before deciding to settle that it's just not any one pattern with this stuff.

    It's really difficult trying to look at running times/form/courses/mentality and strength of the runner/ Run Britain course ratings/people's opinions on courses etc (Pete - Windsor 3-4mins slower than a fast course, Matt - Runners Retreat and Wycombe Phoenix coach - 60-80secs)

    If you asked me about the Wycombe half, I'd say, yeah it's way slower than Wokingham, as the fastest I ever did it versus Wokingham was a shocking 5 1/2mins slower (I don't even want to check the 2015 version) Ask Bus, and he actually did them 2mins apart once.

    The truth is that I generally approached the Wycombe half as a "yeah it's local, I'll do it, it won't be fast" job, whereas I always targeted Wokingham.
    Add in less than mad skills in hot and humid weather, and not especially being a hill monster, and it's no real surprise it came out way under ability.


    All I can say is buy me the shoes and I'll test em <3

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2018

    Reg - good news. Quite a solid deal there!

    I think if you buy Vaporflys, you save them for racing! You don't piss about using them for mere sessions!


    One last question on these...Dean mentioned he has some earlier variant.  Faster than normal racers but not as fast as these flyknit ones?


    ps what did we talk about before these.

    It';s like that Magnesium stuff again!

  • PeteMPeteM ✭✭✭
    How much Mg can you buy for the price of Vaporflys Ric and do you reckon it produces the same improvements!
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2018

    Shame I can't pile this stack of Alton Sports vouchers into a pair

    Actually...Scotty old son....

    Although like Pete said, the availability seems to only be women and midget sizes!

    Bus, nope, they still have the CR, so wouldn't get a mail.

    My obsession with those has gone now. Realise that you can't really be monstering round town without it rucking your training up.

    My most ridiculous one was heading off at lunch to a park in Windsor where I'd researched 4 separate segs, as well as 2 out on the road near it. Utterly smashed myself on what I thought were the routes, only to discover I only earned 2. Equalling 1, getting the route wrong on 2 (always enlarge that dam map!), and not being able to muster 3min 40 pace for a slightly inclining 300metres, I'd foolishly tried to attempt last :)

    Still..i did nick a clubmate's one, and he was not pleased. Not pleased indeed

    One a fortnight or so, an old work colleague who doesn't really run much, but has to his credit done some marathons, but won't know many runners,  starts kudos-ing every one my runs. So I start getting notification after notification over a 5min spell :)

  • Haha SG.. as per our terms and conditions.....

    Interesting thoughts on the vapors yes.. the 4% only designed to give maximum benefit over the marathon and then die so really no good other than the elites who get given them

    Others like the ON cloudflash at 160 has a less than 200 mile life span but they are pitched at racing only

    Nah our vouchers (can) suck but we have supported maybe 150 events this year and only a handful of organisers want to give any money back so it's all free cash away really... It is all relevant and general feel is people who run more want to spend less on a pair as they go through more. We don't always see it but our shop trends are very seasonal and very swingy. 

    People will come in and spend 300 quid (140 on shoes) and that's then for 12-18 months or more
    Pain is weakness leaving the body
  • I'd love to give the Vaporflys a go but I'd want to try them on first which is difficult to do! That pace difference is crazy Muddy. Although I would definitely get a noticeable difference between my Ultraboosts (easy run shoes) and my On Cloud X's (Session/Racing shoes).

    Did my last long run of 22m on Sunday, coming in at just over 3hrs for a nice and easy HR of 140. Session tonight of 10 x 800 off 45s recovery. Was aiming for 3.00-3.05 per rep, managed to achieve Stevie G levels of consistency! First rep of 3.06 then other 9 all pretty much bang on 3.02. 
  • PeteMPeteM ✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    First feedback from my Vaporfly trial lady. She did 10*800 (yasso pre marathon 800's that her and her coach are very fond of). Said coach told her to do 3'15's as that's where he thought she was at for the marathon (idea of yasso's for any that don't know is your 800 time in mins and secs is a good predictor of hours and mins in the marathon). She said she put in the effort for 3'15's but they came out an av of 3'07 and it all felt "very easy and springy". One was a 3'03 apparently at which stage the coach told her to slow down. So 4% improvement on trial day 1; let's hope it continues on the big day! Good session btw StevieW; coincidentally very similar to the one I just described!

    Scott; are you saying use these for 1 marathon and then the benefits already start fizzling out? That's a whole new dynamic and makes them prohibitively expensive for most of us.
  • muddyfunstermuddyfunster ✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    My experience with many shoes is that they decay from new - the Vaporfly are no different but I wouldn’t say they’re only good for one marathon. (I saw on the Mo doc that he was breaking out a new pair of shoes practically every week !) The elite runners probably race in brand new shoes for maximum effect but my take is that they are definitely advantageous for over 200 miles.  If I could liken them to anything it would be to a pair of lightweight racers like the Saucony Kinvaras, where longevity is sacrificed for weight.

    StevieWh - what size shoe are you ? Good session and great long run. Where are your marathon effort tempos coming out at pace wise ?

    Just checked back on my test runs back in Nov 2017. I did 10k at 150bpm heart rate for 6.32 min/mile, then two days later in the Vaporflys 6.15 min/mile at 149 bpm (I did the same tonight coincidentally, non Vaporfly) Stride length was 1.41m vs 1.45m;  cadence 172 vs 175 steps per minute; ground contact time 220 ms vs 205 ms. That tallies with the feel of them, popping a little bit more briskly off the ground without so much effort required.

    Ric - What did you do to affect biomechanics ? I can upload a comedy video from the recent marathon if you’d care to cast a critical eye ...


  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    Interesting stats muddy.
    Reading stevie whos post (fantastic 3hr run-800s combo by the way stevie) and just to clarify...was the non vaporfly run in heavyweights or other racers?

    Other racers v vaporfly would be a key comparison if not.

  • DeanR7DeanR7 ✭✭✭
    Nike say The 4% is a comparison to equivalent racing in nike streak 6, A lightweight racer.
    regards these shoes there seems to be 2 schools of thought if you read the reviews.  Those that have raced in them and those that haven't.  One of those groups tend to review them in the most glowing terms, the others are disbelievers.


  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭
    I Imagine the 4% over the marathon with the Vapours may well be a reference to how much the crap is knocked out of you legs by other shoes by comparison.

    I did a marathon in some Nikes which were really soft. So kind were they that I could run ok the following day. Not all good though. The uppers on the next pair I bought revealed a problem not apparent on the originals. The lack of support due to the flimsy material led to pressure points where the support was tougher.

    In fact I gave a near new pair to PMJ. If he found them to be like I did and binned them, I wouldn't blame him.

    I've tried all sorts of racers. The one's which work best for me tend to be a bit more solid in the forefoot as against cushioned. When racing I want speed, and padding along in squiggy soft shoes isn't a way to get it.
    Shoes which aren't welded to your feet also slow things down.

    I note Muddies cadence. Mine comes out in training averaging 180 spm. When racing, I'm looking at 200 spm.

    The key is leg speed. Leg speed first. Over striding slows it right down.
    My change in style led to that leg speed. It was about avoiding 'foot lead'. That in turn led to my calf muscles developing as I by passed heel striking.

    When I run now, I land on the fore/mid foot.
    Imagine jogging up stairs. It's like that. Body position when running leads to actually moving forwards.

    Re Pete: 16 bottles of mg at discount rate.
     

    🙂

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    Dean - I dare say we'll all end up in them! The main difficulty is the lack of availability right now....
    Certainly wouldn't use them in training though - although thinking about it, do you need to train in them to maximise racing in them? Or is that another (tedious) debate in itself :)

    Short single run today - will do at lunch.
    One issue with that is I remember how leaving to arrive at Slough for 9am is an absolute mugs game traffic wise.
  • muddyfunstermuddyfunster ✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    Stevie G said:

    One last question on these...Dean mentioned he has some earlier variant.  Faster than normal racers but not as fast as these flyknit ones?


    ps what did we talk about before these.

    It';s like that Magnesium stuff again!

    At the risk of prolonging this discussion, I missed this earlier. There are four pairs of Nike shoes using the plate interleaved with the foam combo. These are Zoom Fly, Zoom Vaporfly 4% and the next iteration of each of these - the Zoom Fly Flyknit, Zoom Vaporfly Flyknit. I tried the Zoom Fly after trying the Vaporfly and sent the Zoom Fly back immediately. I found them too stiff, unresponsive and uncomfortable. The Zoom Fly Flyknit are said to use a different, softer foam, and may not be so uncomfortable. I'll try them out when I next need a new pair of shoes.

    I trained for the marathon in the Pegasus Zoom Turbo, which don't have the plate, but do have a less bulky ZoomX base (as used in the Vaporfly). They are not 'feel fast' shoes but they are protective and durable. In my standard test at marathon effort they came out slower than my Saucony Freedom ISO, which used to be my racing shoe, but I felt less beat up.

    StevieG - the Freedom ISO use a Boost style foam and are my comparison shoe and are heavier than the Vaporfly, no doubt.
    Stevie G said:

    Certainly wouldn't use them in training though - although thinking about it, do you need to train in them to maximise racing in them? Or is that another (tedious) debate in itself :)

    No, but I would consider breaking them out for a hard training session that I needed to recover quickly from. The initial feel is a bit unnerving as you sink a bit in them just plodding around, but once you're at pace they seem to really firm up.

    Ric - I did turnover work throughout recent marathon training - building in 4-6x400m at 5 min/miling. I noticed from my pb days that I was running with a longer stride and faster cadence and thought I'd like to get back to that, after recent injuries. I've a mate who coaches and was a 14 min 5k guy and he reckoned I ran 'high on the forefoot' much like his speedier middle distance lads and lasses. Did you do anything supplementary to drive the cadence up ?
  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭
    Marvellous - after the driest summer on record, and the body just about holding up, on Sunday I paid £110 (non-refundable) for a B&B for two nights for the Langdale Horseshoe this weekend. At that point the weather forecast was OK. Got an email from the RO today saying that, given the latest forecast. extra kit was needed and the race may not even go ahead! I can't say it looks pleasant that's for sure - met office weather warning of flooding and continuous torrential rain throughout the weekend. It's a bloody long way to drive to just get soaking wet and spend several hours pottling around without seeing a thing! 

    Nice long run StevieW by the way!
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    Sounds an arse Bus.
    Should deffo have put that into a Vaporfly fund :)
  • Muddy - I am a size 11 in running shoes. My last MP tempo came out at 6.44 but that included some road crossings etc. Got a final MP test on Friday which I'm hoping to come out at around 6.40 pace.

    My cadence varies depending what im doing - its around 165 - 170 for easy runs but 185-190 for sessions and racing.

    200 miles is 8 marathons which isn't too bad, £25 a race. Although I would want to run at least 16-18 miles in them before cracking them out for a Mara! I've been considering the On CloudAce but not sure my legs/feet are ready for a complete racing flat yet!

  • StevieWh - You're welcome to a trial run in mine then, as I'm an 11. I find my eventual marathon pace is typically around 10-15s per mile slower than anything I achieve over shorter distances in training (also with road crossings etc.) but I'm a bit rubbish at knocking out the long runs. Most I've done is 2 hr 30 time on feet.
  • DachsDachs ✭✭✭
    edited October 2018

    I'll probably end up getting a pair, like everyone else, but something about a shoe being responsible for the claimed level of performance gain still doesn't sit right with me.

    Plus it will give those boring 70s moaners a chance to talk about how modern runners need loads of gimmicks, and that they all ran sub 2:10 with blocks of wood strapped to their feet.

    Got the response from the British and Irish Masters XC application.  I'm second reserve for England, which isn't a massive surprise given that my times this year haven't really been up to scratch, a tiny 5000 PB aside.  Probably not worth travelling to Swansea to run the rejects' race, but can still go on the reserve list and go up at relatively short notice on the off-chance I am required.

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