Moraghan Training - Stevie G

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Comments

  • DachsDachs ✭✭✭
    edited October 2018

    I'll probably end up getting a pair, like everyone else, but something about a shoe being responsible for the claimed level of performance gain still doesn't sit right with me.

    Plus it will give those boring 70s moaners a chance to talk about how modern runners need loads of gimmicks, and that they all ran sub 2:10 with blocks of wood strapped to their feet.

    Got the response from the British and Irish Masters XC application.  I'm second reserve for England, which isn't a massive surprise given that my times this year haven't really been up to scratch, a tiny 5000 PB aside.  Probably not worth travelling to Swansea to run the rejects' race, but can still go on the reserve list and go up at relatively short notice on the off-chance I am required.

  • I dunno Dachs - if you look at that study you can see that switching to some shoes holds people back on race day. I just see it as giving you the best possible reflection of all the training you've put in.
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    We already switch to lighter racers, socks, vests and shorts for race day.
    As well as finding extra "Internals" to lash out in bushes just before.

    So it's just an extension of that.
    I dare say in 20 years time, kids will roll out of bed having done no training, put a pair of rocket launcher trainers on, and be doing halfs in 23 mins
  • DeanR7DeanR7 ✭✭✭
    someone will drop out dachs and i bet you get to race.

    muddy is a nike rep in disguise...very good knowledge.  i have the zoom fly (the one below the vaporfly)  i think they are good....BUT i dont think they are super race fast.  i like them for training but they are not the same as vaporfly 4% which are the opposite.  they are for race day. 
    i got my zoom fly for only £50 not the £140 ish they can go for.  The zoom fly are firm but the reviews say they become a softer ride after a few weeks. they are good but i wouldnt buy them at full price or use as a racer.
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    Muddy did turn out our request to put in a 1hr 13-14min half though (the 3-3.5min) improvement suggested ;);)
    And we'd gone generous, off his current time, rather than off his pb!

    Has to be the 4% pair or sticking with the usual racers really.

    Either way, my next post race excuse will be "well, it wasn't in the Vaporflys 4%" so was never gonna be fast  o:)
  • Stevie - current half fitness is 1.19 in the Vaporfly’s - that was 2 weeks before the recent marathon, so I was under some training duress (no taper). I’m racing Birmingham half on Sunday but it’s not a flat one.  I feel good though, post marathon, but like you, I need a sustained bit of work on the threshold efforts before taking on the pb in January. I ran my half pb in Saucony Fasttwitch, btw, which are super light and firm in the forefoot. My favourite ever shoe remains a pair of Saucony Virrata which were, as Ric describes, like slippers welded to my feet.

    Dean - I never wore any Nike before the Vaporfly ! Saucony all the way. The marketing for the Fly/Vaporfly can confuse people though.
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    Seem to be a lot of variants - definitely looks confusing.

    We'll let you off for a bit Muddy.
    The absolute acid test would be someone like Dachs who has utterly smashed himself in training, nothing derailing to last few years, squeezed out massive amounts (69min half), and THEN still takes wads off.
  • WoolWool ✭✭✭

    It seems to me that Dean had it right on the previous page. Those who have tried them say that they are ace. Some who haven't say they can't be. There's no reason for the believers to say that they are that good as it kinda undermines a person's ability saying it's all down to the shoes so I would have thought the natural tendency would be to underplay rather than overplay them.

    Anyway, I see that SG doesn't believe us so has gone on to FB to tell folks there that he doesn't believe them too!!

    I have a pair that I've done ca 200 miles in. There is no obvious deterioration in the foam or tread. If the claim is that it's the C plate that makes the big difference then there is no noticeable difference in the resistance of this in this old pair versus a box fresh pair. I don't buy the claim that they are only good for one marathon, sorry.

  • Well I won't be buying any, but looking forward to seeing what the Hoka Tracer are like!

    Down to Luton last night, 6 x 1200 on the grass, Mr IK back after holiday and illness (12 weeks!) - so one 800 loop round the rugby pitch and ridge of doom, then 400m round one of the pitches. Grass a bit long too, annoying. Mainly around 3.55, steadily down to 3.45 for the last one. Being out that long, expected IK to be just running with me on reps 4-6, but naturally he was still quicker after being out that long ;)

    So expecting the Masters xc letter today - no idea if i'll get in or not tbh..

  • DachsDachs ✭✭✭
    Simon, if you're not in that 45s team, something isn't right with the selection process.
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
     :D  Wool , you always crack me up. As well as making sure I keep chat on here and online sensible as you're always monitoring  <3<3

    I believe you all, but it's the degree, and I know I'm after the impossible - hard cold numbers. Although Muddy has provided some decent bits and pieces.

    But yes, just the shoes then, not your efforts ;)

    Right, only lunchtime run now - it's become a novelty!
  • StevieWhStevieWh ✭✭✭
    edited October 2018

    Muddy - That would be brilliant, I wouldn't run to far in them as I don't want to eat into your limited mileage! I'll be spectating at Birmingham half on Sunday so I will look out for you. Whats your January half race?

    Good session SC, good luck for the masters selection

  • Stevie - Check out Stuart Hawkes on Po10. He races in the Vaporfly and been consistently at the top of his game the past couple of years. I think Dean will definitely know him, and, possibly, Dachs from Brighton Marathon.
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    He's got quite a range with his half marathons these last 2 years! 66 through 73.
    Unless some are at a lesser effort, or are on colossal hills.
    Or dare i say, some are in non Vapors :)

    A mere 5 at lunch felt a bit weird and sluggish. Shows how habits can quickly break!
  • He jumps in races for hard training efforts Stevie. The 73 half would reflect his marathon pace runs I think.

    Warm at lunch - my recovery run had an unusually sluggish feel too.
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    Yes - it was very warm actually, like it shouldn't be now in mid Oct!

    Looking forward to a crack at a 200s, 1ks, 400s mix tomorrow. The "Light" session of the 3 this week, but I dare say it won't feel like that during.
  • DachsDachs ✭✭✭
    Or he's winning them and doesn't need to run any faster.
  • DeanR7DeanR7 ✭✭✭
    mr hawks is flying recently and he ghosted past me in the midlands xc relay last yr....he wasnt in vaporflys then.  he trains hard and is getting his rewards.

    Simon - if you dont get in and Mr symes takes your place....ouch again ;)

  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭
    Muddy - Cadence. I imagined running with a stride shorter than I could manage. Also thinking more in terms of lifting my feet the moment they touch the ground as against just landing on the ground and pushing off. 

    If you watch guys running the 10000m in the Olympics, they'll be operating around 200 spm. Their talent means they can do this with a six foot stride length.

    No running for me today. Went out on the bike instead. 65 miles, 1000m + of ascents averaging 17.2 mph.
    All good strength/endurance stuff.
  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭
    Those who have tried them say that they are ace. Some who haven't say they can't be. 

    This is probably the only sort of thing that pisses me off.

    It's empirical evidence being given no more value than ignorance and guesswork.
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    RicF said:
    Those who have tried them say that they are ace. Some who haven't say they can't be. 

    This is probably the only sort of thing that pisses me off.

    It's empirical evidence being given no more value than ignorance and guesswork.
    The only thing son? :D

    The only thing today maybe.

    Just joshing B)

  • WoolWool ✭✭✭
    No, it was empirical evidence being given credence actually. But there we go. 
  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭
    Those who have tried them say that they are ace (this bit is the evidence being given credence)

    Some who haven't say they can't be 
    (this is the ignorance and guesswork bit)



  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2018

    To lighten ting up and if I can get hold of a pair, and if i've stopped crying at the price by then, I'll give it a go in spring.

    If I do a 1hr 13-14 half, I will personally buy everyone on the thread a drink of their choosing.

    (disclaimer - up to a £1.50 limit - poster must have made over 500 posts on the thread)

  • muddyfunstermuddyfunster ✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    DeanR7 said:
    mr hawks is flying recently and he ghosted past me in the midlands xc relay last yr....he wasnt in vaporflys then.  he trains hard and is getting his rewards.

    Absolutely he trains hard. I don’t follow on Strava but I follow someone who I believe trains like a madman, and he believes Stuart trains hard, so I dread to think ! However there’s the crux of it - and Wool mentioned it earlier - that people are uneasy about taking a boost from shoes, thinking that it undermines the value of their training. But it does nothing of the sort - it sets up a virtuous circle. Better shoes and quicker recoveries beget better training, allows more racing, picks up more prize money, affords better shoes and quicker recoveries and then harder training... which then allows him to get past you in the xc without the aid of the shoes in the end Dean ! :) There are of course other virtuous circles involving manipulating diet, supplements (l-carnitine anyone?), stress,  sleep ... and I’ll throw in the controversial ‘compression socks’ just for fun !

  • StevieWh said:

    Muddy - That would be brilliant, I wouldn't run to far in them as I don't want to eat into your limited mileage! I'll be spectating at Birmingham half on Sunday so I will look out for you. Whats your January half race ?

    Hopefully it’ll be the Brass Monkey up in York but it’s a bugger to get into. if not that then the Village Bakery half in Feb. My race number is 184 - but may well be too congested to pick me out. Drop me a PM and we can sort something out.
  • PeteMPeteM ✭✭✭
    Muddy; I'm a compression socks devotee since all my calf issues Nov '17 to Apr'18. Could and prob will return at some stage but the socks have held them at bay for 6 months at least.

    Dean/Simon your friend/rival Mark is v50 this week so won't he be in a diff category at vets National xc now? 

    SG; my Vaporfly lady has offered to buy me a pair if she goes sub 3; (wouldn't rule it out if the weather is kind)! Bit better than your offer of 3/4 of a 1/2 of beer☺


  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭
    The virtuous circle of training has all lot of merit. 

    When I started running I was always carrying some sort of niggle until I bought my first pair of Asics. All the aches went away and I was able to train as I liked. Subsequent pb's all over the place.

     It was the shoes which allowed me to do the work to get the results.

    I first mentioned the principle of compression socks in the late 80's to a guy (Eddie Conway) who worked in Teddington's Sweat shop when we got talking about calf muscle problems.

    I said I'd tried wearing long socks, and everything seemed to hold together better. The fact that later he ran 48 minutes (2nd behind Steve Brace) in the Cabbage Patch doesn't mean he took any notice of what I said. 

    At the time I regarded what I did as some sort of nonsense which worked, but looked so odd, I'd only go out at night in them. I soon stopped wearing them.

    On reflection, It may well have been that visit to the shop when I bought the Asics.
  • DachsDachs ✭✭✭
    SG if you do that half time you have to have a drink yourself.

    Anyway, isn't this all moot, since these shoes are rarer than a mermaid's testicles and impossible to get hold of? I heard that , to get a pair, you have to jerk off a unicorn, mix the resulting ejaculate with holy water, and bring it as an offering to Nike HQ at dawn on the 29th February, whereupon you will have to answer three riddles posed by a tiny, wizened Galen Rupp.
  • Ha ha Dachs. So as Dachs and Dean know I was given 3rd reserve for the masters xc - which was a bit surprising, as I might have expected 1st reserve, but 3rd was a bit of a shock. Not that bothered though, can save a bit of money for world indoors in Poland in March and other bits and bobs (Nike trainers ? :) )

    I'm 6th on runbritain, and the guy who is 7th was 2nd in the trial will be in the team, the 2nd and 3rd were a bit firther down on the ladder. But Skinner and Scott are both flying, didn't do the trial - but will get the nod if they have applied, even if they are below me on runbritain, as their recent times are better over 5k and 10k. Be interesting to see the team anyway.

    Back on the canal this morning, 10 x 30 secs, as xc on Saturday. Scattering cyclists as usual. Good fun.

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