Risk of death?!?

The news of 2 cardiac arrests in Sundays Cardiff Half marathon has got into my head.

I ran a 1:41 on Sunday and am mid 30's. The 2 guys who sadly aren't with us any longer were of a similar-ish age (one a bit younger and one a bit older) and not vastly different times (1:50ish and 2h ish).

I wasn't expecting those who came to an untimely end to be young and fit, rather that they'd have been unhealthy/old/fat/smokers etc. so discovering that they weren't that different from many other runners has made we wonder how much risk we put ourselves at by pushing ourselves to our perceived limits in a race?

Before commenting that millions of people race each year and that these are the first deaths in the Cardiff Half Marathon etc., please consider that the question is not supposed to be sensationalist but questions, are we putting ourselves at risk? How do we minimise that risk? Is there any research to understand the pro's of sport/running v. risks of racing and perhaps whether we should not exceed threshold HR etc. I feel I need educating to help put my mind at rest...

RIP Ben McDonald and Dean Fletcher .
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  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Usually fatalities such as these are due to undiagnosed heart conditions.  4 runners died at GNR this year too.

    Best you can do is stay healthy and train well, don't run when you're ill or even recovering from illness/virus.  If you have any symptoms such as chest pain, even mild get yourself checked out.
  • If you are under 35 you can get yourself screened by the charity Cardiac Risk in the Young: https://www.testmyheart.org.uk/
  • JGavJGav ✭✭✭
    As someone mentioned above, these deaths in young fit people are usually down to undiagnosed heart conditions which are a ticking time bomb.  Get 15k people are running at their maximum capacity then there are odds stacked in such a way there will be issues occasionally sometimes resulting in death.  

    If you're worried, get yourself checked out.  I've had a several cardiac echos (benefit of working in the department training sonographers where they needed test patients) and so know I don't have to worry about that specific problem.
  • Before commenting that millions of people race each year and that these are the first deaths in the Cardiff Half Marathon etc., please consider that the question is not supposed to be sensationalist but questions, are we putting ourselves at risk? How do we minimise that risk? Is there any research to understand the pro's of sport/running v. risks of racing and perhaps whether we should not exceed threshold HR etc. I feel I need educating to help put my mind at rest...
    "The Haywire Heart" is worth a read and will help answer some of those questions.  Yes, there are the undiagnosed conditions, often hereditary, that JGav mentions but there are also warning signs to look for as you get older as well - arrhythmias and that sort of thing that shouldn't be ignored.  Basically, any doubts, get checked.
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    I often wonder if these sad events are the result of pre-disposed illness, or sudden things. Also if the folks are properly trained etc or if these events can just suddenly occur.
    If someone has been during endurance sports for a while are they more or less likely to have issues? Are folks that have been racing for many years ok as they have had no issues do far
    What sort of symptoms should folks be looking out for.
    Rather than just report the tragedy, it would be good if information was also put out to help those still taking part in future events. Is it ok to simply say dont run if you feel unwell? As folks might not be aware of any potential issues.
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Unfortunately some folk ignore symptoms.  I'm not talking about young folk that suffer cardiac arrest but older and often experienced runners.  I personally know 3 men that suffered heart attacks whilst out running, all had prior symptoms that they ignored, one died the other 2 survived.

    2308 - even with medical help right next to you the chances of surviving a cardiac arrest are not good.  If you have immediate CPR that can double or triple your chance of survival to something like 20% or 30% so the odds are still against you 
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    How sad. I meant race organisers etc saying dont run if you dont feel well, as feeling under the weather shouldnt lead to everyone wirhdrawing for fear of heart issues, or should it?
    What sort of symptoms were these folks you know ignoring?
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    TR - unexplained decline in performance when training, tiredness, chest pain which one guy said to me he thought was indigestion.   One of them was running a marathon and he was a faster runner than me, but I caught him up at about 20 miles and the sweat was pouring off him although it was a cold day.  I said to him you're not well, he said he was fine although clearly he wasn't, he had a heart attack out running 2 weeks later.   He didn't go to the doctors after that marathon, didn't even tell his wife.
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    Yes, chest pain isnt good. At the start of a 1/2 recently i had some pins and needles in my arms, rhe start was immediately uphill. I was a bit worried but it soon cleared, i have since done a few more 1/2s and completed my Abingdon training with no more issues. If you google for advice before you know it you are talking yourself into bubonic plague. So it is tricky to be sensible at times. I often get stiff neck type issues so put my issue down to trapped neck things, as i have been fine since. So i can see that its easy for folks to get panicky about endurance sports, esp with reports of IM athletes having some heart issues in recent times.
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    TR - I know, Dr Google isn't good.   

    Best we can do is be sensible and not ignore symptoms that if they were happening to a friend or family member we would insist they get checked out.

    I know a few marathon addicts that have had heart problems/surgery but never discussed with them if they'd had symptoms prior to any incident/attack.   Of course as we age parts of us are going to wear out, as they would if we were non runners.
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    Shades - thats good advice. I guess that you are mixing with folks that are running many marathons a year, so some pretty stubborn folks?
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    TR - yes, I'm a bit of a marathon addict myself.   Other addicts have had heart surgery and are back doing the marathons.   One of the founder members had heart surgery earlier this year, I saw him at an event and he walked the half marathon as part of his rehab, he will ease himself back into the marathons soon.
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    Shades - i guess its worth saying that some of those aging marathon adducts might have had heaet issues from againg even if they didnt run.
  • TR said:
    What sort of symptoms should folks be looking out for.

    Not just chest pain, although that's a very obvious flag.  Other things might be:

    Any sustained racing of the heart, either at rest or out of proportion to effort (this was the one I ignored and put down to not warming up properly - no need for a HRM, I could feel it racing away way beyond normal for the pace I was doing).

    Difficult breathing out of proportion to effort (not just because you're running hard up hill)

    Palpitations, if they're more frequent than just the occasional one.

    Excess fatigue as well, although that's more usually down to overtraining or just lack of sleep.

  • 2308 said:

    The saddest thing about collapsing in a race is that probably help won't be immediately available where you fall.


    If you're lucky it might arrive in a few minutes' time, but by then you're dead. So not so lucky.


    A few inexperienced St John's Ambulance people standing 600 yards away chatting distractedly to one another half asleep on the job isn't going to save your life.


    Usually the entry form you sign says you run at your own risk. It means what it says.


    Racing isn't compulsory. You are putting your heart under pressure, so consider if you should.


    The detail that never gets reported accurately in these things is, how long it took help to arrive. They can bury that detail. You won't be told how long.


    I was on to Westminster Council earlier this year to sort out better medical support in the VLM, after yet another death, as a health and safety issue, but I felt their response just shows complacency. They have meetings? Well big deal.


    If you collapse, expect to be on your own with the problem for a little while at least. Maybe you'll die in that interval, and maybe you won't.


    --


    I believe these two guys collapsed just after the finish and where seen to by doctors within seconds according to the organisers. I have done many races where you are miles from any first aider/ water stations and if you collapsed the only help you would get is from other runners. Its actually quite scary when you think about it but I don't think i have ever seen anyone being treated by the medical staff except people who had fallen and grazed themselves. 
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    2308 said:

    2308 - even with medical help right next to you the chances of surviving a cardiac arrest are not good.  If you have immediate CPR that can double or triple your chance of survival to something like 20% or 30% so the odds are still against you 


    --------


    It would be jolly nice if the help's there though.

    It's a bit unfortunate if you have been encouraged to enter a race and push the old ticker to the limit but the organisers have failed to provide enough medical help. You're dying, thinking this is a bit off: no one around to help. Blimey. I didn't expect that to happen.

    And then all that gets reported afterwards is that someone died. Not, that they would have lived if things had been organised better.

    2308 - I sign a disclaimer every time I enter a race.   I run races at my own risk and it's my responsibility to take care of my own health and training.   I don't expect the race to be responsible for me if I collapse, in the same way I don't expect the NHS to park an ambulance at the end of my street 24 hours a day.   I expect there to be adequate medical services at a race, but for me that would be a plaster or some basic treatment and at worse a lift to hospital.   I don't expect to be followed around by a resuscitation team.   There are many events in this country where runners are alone for hours over difficult terrain, they choose to do these events.


  • HA77HA77 ✭✭✭
    Now you are talking nonsense.
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    2308 - I'm sure just as many runners or cyclists die in training or just going about their normal lives as they do in races.   It's the media that hypes the danger when a fatality happens during an event.  Of the 3 that I mentioned above that I personally know/knew 2 had their heart attacks when out training not taking part in an event. 

    I could stay at home and develop diabetes/heart disease/etc from lack of exercise.

    Events do the best they can to advise runners not to take part if they're unwell and if they have any health concerns to consult their doctor first.

    Crossing the road is dangerous, so should we never cross another road again?
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    HA77 said:
    Now you are talking nonsense.
    Well said.
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    Thanks Dave good info. You just had a period of rest? Rather than any treatment?
  • TR - I ignored what in hindsight should have been warning signs and then one day just passed out during a run.  I ended up in hospital for a week while they checked me for all sorts of potential heart defects.  Aside from things like thicker heart walls (pretty standard in endurance athletes) the one thing they found unusual was that my ECG trace develops abnormalities after a period of training, which disappear if I don't train for a few weeks.  This is apparently fairly common in male African endurance runners but unusual in middle aged white men.

    I haven't had any more blackouts but I have had the symptoms a few times since, and I take that as a signal to take a break for a while, certainly from anything intensive.  I still get checked by the cardiologists at least annually.

  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    Good that you have the knowledge and yearly back up to be able to reassure yourself now then Dave.
  • YnnecYnnec ✭✭✭
    2308 said:
    SHADES said:
    2308 - I'm sure just as many runners or cyclists die in training or just going about their normal lives as they do in races.   It's the media that hypes the danger when a fatality happens during an event.  Of the 3 that I mentioned above that I personally know/knew 2 had their heart attacks when out training not taking part in an event. 

    I could stay at home and develop diabetes/heart disease/etc from lack of exercise.

    Events do the best they can to advise runners not to take part if they're unwell and if they have any health concerns to consult their doctor first.

    Crossing the road is dangerous, so should we never cross another road again?



    Most people who race won't know whether or not they have any current cardiovascular issues that might cause them a heart attack; and they will probably also assume resources have been put behind the event to ensure medical help will come very quickly if need be.

    If the resources aren't there - this thread suggests they won't be, or at any rate you're lucky if they are, and arrive soon enough - then the sensible decision for a rational person to make is, not to race at all. (i.e. Not to push your heart into extreme overload for a prolonged period avoidably.)

    Losing 50 years of life because you chose to race fast and help didn't come in time really isn't a gamble worth taking.

    (If people want to be complacent, fine, it's their life to lose if they want to gamble. Your choice.)

    You truly are a ridiculous individual.
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