The Middle Ground

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  • Sorry to hear about your last 8 miles, Dan! Followed you on the tracker and everything seemed to be going well! Didn't realise you had gone back to chunkier shoes; hard to know if this is the reason of course. Doubt if the weather helped! Do you do any work on your feet with, say, a spiky ball? My physio is an advocate as she feels that using the ball opens out the ankle, knees and hips as well as being beneficial to the foot. No rush to make a decision about your future plans...and don't forget there are other distances besides a marathon! Just off to find my spiky ball!
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Dr Dan, sorry you had a miserable day. I did think myself that if the day goes well the conditions can be easily ignored, but on a bad day it would be horrific! Once you stop running it doesn't take long when you're that wet to get very cold.

    I have popped a race report on the 3.15 thread.

    My quads are in bits today, but frankly I don't care. Its pain and discomfort that I have earned and don't resent one bit, unlike a year ago today when I ran the Birmingham mara that went very wrong and I still had to go through all the recovery.

  • Great report on the 3:15 thread! With you every step of the way, DT! And glad your legs are in bits! Proves you gave everything!
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    It's not just my legs. My abs, shoulders, back muscles all definitely played their part. In fact one of the only places not aching bizarrely are my calf muscles. 
  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    I'm certainly in bad shape but I've been worse... probably because I only ran 20ish properly. One toe is mashed, otherwise just the DOMS. But more psychologically damaged this time.
  • JGavJGav ✭✭✭
    I've got a bit of the DOMs still.  Going to have today off my feet and swim instead.  figure that is better than another half arsed run and get back into running properly tomorrow.  This is after a 13.1, how much worse is it after 26.2?

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭
    I cycled to work today ... figured it would be easier than walking from the bus stop to my office. :D Hoping to be able to descend stairs by the morning.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    I have loosened off nicely today. I was very sore still this morning but over the course of the day I have been able to take stairs in a normal fashion. Got a sports massage tomorrow night which ought to help me along. Think I will run tomorrow lunchtime s well.
  • WardiWardi ✭✭✭
    JDawg.. a bit like someone has assailed your legs with a meat tendoriser while you were asleep 😕.  My legs are still a bit sore but much better than yesterday.
    Currently in Portugal in 23 degrees enjoying some rest and recovery. 🍺
  • JGavJGav ✭✭✭
    Popping in - nice 4 mile lumpy lunch run.  Legs feeling a bit better, calves on the weaker side so keeping the pace slow.
  • AndrewDAndrewD ✭✭✭

    Haha - all of this is reminding me why I never think I'll do a marathon! Seriously though, hope you are all recovering well!

    After a couple of weeks of reasonable mileage since my 5 mile race two and a half weeks ago, but all at easy paces (due to a combination of a slight injury and a holiday), I need to slip back into doing a few sessions now. Aiming to start with some tempo miles tonight.

  • JGavJGav ✭✭✭
    AndrewD Sounds like your cricket offseason is coming along nicely there.

    Some lunch intervals for me, 3x (3min @threshold, 2min @10k, 1min @5k) ;

    Managed to hold some good paces through the whole session, calves and hamstrings still feeling tired from the weekend, so the bit I struggled with was getting up to speed, once there it felt easy enough to hold it.  Threshold was around 4.10m/km, 10k pace was around 4m/km and 5k pace was 3.50m/km (except the last one I knocked out at 3.30 because I could.
  • AndrewDAndrewD ✭✭✭
    Good progressive session JGav. Your threshold pace sounds pretty similar to mine (if my conversion to m/m is correct, which it possibly isn’t lol).

    Did my own tempo session earlier, as mentioned above the first proper session in 18 days. 3 miles at tempo in the middle of a 5 mile run. Aim was to be close to the paces I did for this session 4 weeks ago before my 5 mile race taper (7.07 average that time).

    Warm up and tempo mile one felt great for 7.07, mile two still pretty good for 7.08. Third tempo mile felt gradually harder and was hurting by the end, probably because I went a bit too fast for 7.02! So an average of just under 7.06. A very slow warm down mile followed!

    Felt like I worked hard, hopefully it will have the desired training effect!
  • JGavJGav ✭✭✭
    This is the pace conversion page I use
    https://www.depicus.com/swim-bike-run/pace-conversion-chart
    4.10m/km is 6.43mm

    My threshold pace should be the same (or marginally quicker) than my HM pace.  So I should be running threshold at 4.22 based on Sunday's race.  However, I'm never sure if you're supposed to pace it on your last race or where you want to get to.  4.10m/km translates to a 1.28 HM which would be a decent improvement from where I am right now.  However it was a relatively short session so I feel it's ok to push on a bit if you can make it to the end and recover quickly enough.
  • AndrewDAndrewD ✭✭✭

    JGav - I have always understood (certainly from the Jack Daniels book) that you set your training paces based upon your current fitness, usually judged from a recent race result, as the sessions these paces produce will be achievable without injury risk, rather than setting them based upon where you want to get to.

    Different training plans refer to paces differently too - for instance Daniels doesn't refer to HM, 10k, 5k pace etc (he does use MP though) and instead refers to long/easy pace, MP, tempo (which usually turns out to be about 10 seconds per mile slower than 10k pace), intervals (which usually works out slightly quicker than 5k pace) and repetitions (which are basically 1 mile pace or faster).

  • JGavJGav ✭✭✭
    It's one of the vagaries of self coaching.  the Run Club sessions are set by a guy at work who does know what he's doing but clearly doesn't follow a JD plan.  I'm still in the period of fairly rapid improvement and so training to current fitness doesn't make as much sense as training to a realistic target pace.  When the improvements slow down I will probably have to change what I do.

    Thankfully, all I really have to do to improve is to run consistent mileage being young enough and not yet very trained.  Though I do enjoy more structured sessions as a way of making running more interesting and varied.
  • AndrewDAndrewD ✭✭✭

    Whilst I think I am a bit older than you, I am also at the stage where I am still making improvements so long as I get a reasonable block of training in (the problem comes when I have a couple of down months for whatever reason!). Being slightly injury prone, however, I prefer to take the cautious approach of only increasing training paces slowly and training to current fitness rather than 'hoped for' fitness, but I suspect that you may be more robust than me and have some more youth on your side! Horses for courses I suppose!

    When is your next planned race?

    DT & Dan - are you enjoying your more relaxed weeks after your marathons?

    4 miles at easy pace planned for tonight, then 7 on Sunday to bring up 20 for the week.

  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    jgav, training shoukd defo be done to current not aspirational fitness. you have a recent race time so perfectly placed. 

    few easy runs this week. just at at airport off to Barcelona for weekend. 
  • AndrewDAndrewD ✭✭✭

    Have a good weekend DT - I went to Barcelona many, many years ago and liked it, keep meaning to go back but not got around to it yet!

    I have actually just checked my training paces based on my recent 5 mile time - looks like I am doing my tempo sessions too fast (7.06 rather than 7.15 pace). Might explain why last night's felt tough towards the end! Will ease off slightly in next week's session.

  • JGavJGav ✭✭✭
    Managed to squeeze in 9 miles yesterday between swimming, birthday parties and school supper quiz.  Difficult to get it done sometimes.  Legs still felt like trash at the start (sore calves) but strangely got better and better as the run went on.  The last few miles were by far the easiest and legs were better when I finished than before I started. 
  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭
    Morning all!

    JGav - my problem this year has not been training to realistic paces but rather racing at last year's paces. Not recommended! :neutral:

    Andrew - if your mileage is low then I think you can afford to push the tempo pace up.

    Hope the holiday is going well DT.

    Although I managed 43 miles of the bike last week, I finally managed to get out for a short run yesterday ... creaky but nothing felt broken. I have a 10K race in 2 weeks but will keep things easy until then, although tempted to push on a bit at parkrun next week just to blow a few cobwebs away. We'll see. After that 10K, it will be time to reassess things and make a plan for 2019.

    Current thoughts are:

    Target Dewsbury 10K (3rd Feb) ....12 weeks of 10K-specific sessions (FIRST) on Tues, while also building up long run mileage (aim to get to 20 miles during Jan). Then 9 weeks later run the Manchester marathon (7th April), swapping the Tues sessions for extended MP work ... aim will be to run a consistent pace over 26.2. Then swap to Triathlon, aiming for Chester Deva half-IronMan distance (1.2 mile river swim,  54 mile bike, 13.1 mile run) on 2nd June. This would be a new thing for me as I've never gone beyond Olympic distance ... main focus April/May would be getting the bike distance up while maintaining some basic run endurance. Then recover and target an Autumn marathon for a PB.

  • AndrewDAndrewD ✭✭✭

    Sounds like you have a good plan worked out Dan.

    During my long run yesterday (7 miles, 9.16mm avr pace) I was also pondering a rough outline for the next 12 months. I am thinking (more or less):

    10k race in mid November, have a couple of weeks recovery and then keep things ticking over with some shorter sessions over December, start another 10k plan in early January (this time doing 3 sessions a week, rather than just the tempo and long run sessions that I've managed this block) to build to a target 10k at the beginning of April and then try to capitalise on the training block by doing a parkrun/other 5k in mid/late April. Then back off over the summer and tick over with base training and cricket before starting another 10k plan in September.

    The end of this training block will see me manage to have built to about 20 miles a week, with long run topping out at 7 miles and tempo at 3.5 miles. My aim for the spring training block would be to build to something more like 25 miles per week, with a long run of 9 miles and tempo of 4.5 miles, with some shorter interval stuff thrown in too. All injury permitting of course .....

  • JGavJGav ✭✭✭
    I like your race plan Dr.Dan it's broadly similar to mine except I'm sticking to a HM in spring and not sure what tris I'll be doing in the summer.  I think next year I'll just do a couple of Olys/Sprints.  Don't want to commit to a longer distance with a new baby on the way.

    Oh and the Mrs turned round to me at the weekend and said she wants to do a sprint tri.  Secretly pleased.
  • JGavJGav ✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    So ran on Monday, 5 miles at 7.45mm then had yesterday off the legs and went swimming instead.  Was next to a swim club and it's just embarrasing how much faster they are whilst looking like they're warming up.  I just hope they're terrible runners  :#
  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭
    JGav ... the Brownlees and other elite Yorkshire-based triathletes train at the pool at work (Uni). It's best not to look across to their lanes.

    Still cycling to work but no more runs since Sunday. Need to get out tomorrow and will also try to get to parkrun.
  • JGavJGav ✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    Dr.Dan said:
    JGav ... the Brownlees and other elite Yorkshire-based triathletes train at the pool at work (Uni). It's best not to look across to their lanes.
    When I swam at Nottingham Uni if you were there early enough Rebecca Adlington (this was 2010 so at her peak) was sometimes swimming.  Probably next level even compared to the elite triathlete squad.

    Lunch run with some guys from work.  They're low 1.20 HM runners so whilst they were "jogging" 7.20mm it was a solid Z3 effort for me.  7 miles was pretty decent though.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Good going, JGav. Probably pushing a mara pace session for you??

    I am slowly trying to get back to it with an easy 7 last night and 6 over lunch. Legs still don't feel like they would cope with any further right now and my cv system is still suffering as the hr for those runs was a good 5-7 bpm up on what they were pre marathon.

    Will persevere over the coming weeks. I did however manage to get a Brass Monkey place for January so i'll be back up to York soon enough.

  • AndrewDAndrewD ✭✭✭
    Tempo session for me this afternoon - 3.5 miles at tempo within a 5.5 miles run. Tempo block came out at a 7.09 average.
  • JGavJGav ✭✭✭
    Yes that's probably my mara pace or even slightly quicker. Would be a 3.15ish and I'd be extatic if I could run a 3.15 mara. 
  • AndrewDAndrewD ✭✭✭

    Just fine tuning the plan for the next 3 weeks before race day. I am finishing off next week with a parkrun at full effort. I will clearly need a few days to recover, but want to make the most of end the following week, before having a taper week on the week of the race. Bearing in mind the race is a 10k, would you guys suggest that in that penultimate week before the race (and bearing in mind it is straight after a parkrun) I:

    a) Do a 4 mile tempo on Thursday/Friday, but no long run session;

    b) Prioritise a long run of maybe 8 miles on the Sunday, and not do a tempo session at all; or

    c) Risk doing both?

    Or an alternative suggestion (perhaps a long run and a shorter tempo session of perhaps 2 miles).

    I am unsure how best to maximise this last week of full training before a mini taper - my gut says to prioritise the tempo run, but wondered what your collective thoughts were?

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