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Moraghan Training - Stevie G
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And anyway, if you can race ok without masses of miles, why do them? I once improved from 2:56 (London) to 2:46 (Abingdon) for a marathon averaging 17mpw (max 39) over six months.
Simon's coach (who I watched race on the telly in the 70's) once operated at world class level on no more than 30mpw! Which was quite a feat back in the days of mega mileage.
Bedford who ran those sorts of miles (mega) also did them at sub six minute mile pace. He was also finished as a runner to all intents and purposes by age 22.
My miles are really easy in the way I just let them drift back to me. Pushing the pace isn't a factor, though this means that a steep hill is taken at hardly any pace at all - 12 minute mile pace anyone?
🙂
Got ahead of him and a few others just near the end.
25miles a week with a parkrun and often 10k race at the weekend does not leave many miles elsewhere! Maybe one ten miler or two shorter ones? You do phenomally to race so well off that!
In fairness he's comfortably into his 40s weighs about 6 stone has a permo fatless sixpack and despite getting 93 colds a year is always competitive in xc. Back in the day he used to consistently get injured if trying to do more.
Would it work for all of us? Well, ive done low mileage and i was slower..simple as that. Would going much lower be more effective now? Maybe, but only due to the years of more.
All this misses one key element. That some of us simply like to run a lot. It's not 100% about racing
Thanks PeteM - yes the quality is stupid in the SL at the moment - I think mainly due to South London Harriers and Hercules Wimbledon suddenly getting new runners from nowhere - plus Kent strong as usual.
At the moment there are 2.40 marathoners, getting back into it coming outside the top 100 on Saturday.
SG - Headphones in a xc? Surely not...
The OP is a good guy, but bearing in mind he was apparently in the meeting that decided about it, it's odd moaning on a thread now!
Reg - you can, but an "ubershttonne" (official word) of cycling is probably worth double the actual run miles!
Said I wouldn't but as I looked through the race pics, wondering who the heck all these Burnham guys are, as I don't remember them having too many pacey lads at either the 5ks or when we "researched" their team at a relay earlier in the year.
Two guys directly ahead of me haven't gone quicker than 18.11 for 5k this year. Obviously translate well to XC, or at least better than me! Or i'm still getting back into it.
I'm totally against wearing headphones during races, but I always listen to music running to and from work and long training runs on my own. I know these big events you have folk wearing them - but in a cross country?
God knows what would happen if someone turned up at Surrey League wearing them - I think they would get 'bundled' and a few dead arms given
However, it is still bunkum as he's midpack, there's 504 (confirmed) finishers, so it's tight as heck on certain bits.
Glad of a bit of extra recovery post second run today. Got that warmy tired feeling. Though in this office, you're never quite sure how much of it is the actual office temp, and how much is you
Headphones in XC is just bizarre. On the road it's wrong for safety blah, blah, blah, but in xc you expect to be shouted at (and have to respond) when someone is squeezing past, even on a relatively easy course. It also defeats the point of running with other people!
One of our own local 'faces' (as SG might say!), Frank Fulcher, is another one of those who gets impressive results off low mileage, even as a vet, but he also supplements with cycling. Reg - your own fitness is at such a high level from swimming and biking, that running sessions only need the quality, not the quantity to get results, but the intensity relative is possibly a reason why upping the quantity may make you more injury prone...
As for me, double today and legs getting back to something approximating the new normal (touch wood!). 7.5M this morning and 5.5 tonight at a pace that, whilst still positively pedestrian, is 3 to 4 mins faster over the route than the last few weeks, without too much fo a re-emergence of the niggles. Who knows, at this rate I may even get in another race this year!!!!
Nice pair Bus. That's fairly big mileage out of your week, so a big day.
Datchet session for the first time in months, was meant to be some sort of pyramid.
However, the usually exceptionally reliable chap forgot he was on, so we went for an impromptu pairs session.
3x10mins, basically doing a lap of the coach park each. Not sure what length all in, probably 300-350metres, 2 long straights, and some fussy bits round cones to slow you.
Our best runner was there, so to spice it up put him with probably the 4th fastest there, a new guy. While me and Chris, reprised our Dashers relay winning combo.
We're both fairly sharp at the shortest stuff, and managed to see them out.
Hard to do any real watch readings, but i'm pretty sure we'd have been working in the low 5s. Good pace bearing in mind the loop at each end wasn't particularly pace aiding.
Probably just the pure burst of speed of a session I've missed for a while. Doubled over ruined for the recovery on some of them!
About 60-70 out on the route too, so often someone to monster.
With me, the science aspect in running amounts to 'what' happened. I can use that information.
Using pure science to predict what happens is something else.
On paper it should be the blueprint for success, and yet, often ends up with nothing like it. Or else the cost involved doesn't justify the result.
Common factor on the thread and elsewhere are the Vets who operate at top level. Just about every one I hear of has come to running relatively late in life.
One reason why I thought that article was of interest. It suggested that the body will only take so much punishment before the adaptive mechanisms quit.
Which is why 'lateVets' can improve and while those vets who've been at it for much longer cannot. They improve because they haven't used up all their 'go faster' stores.
🙂
Ric -'Go faster stores' - is this the same as the '20 years of hard training' theory I have been told? sounds similar . Glad you are getting there now Bus. I've had a couple of decent battles with 'FF' over the years too.
8 x 800 last night, just once around the rugby pitches and up and down half of the slope to finish. Decent numbers last night with our Ampthill & Flitwick visitors. Great night for it - relatively still, and a bit of rain has softened the grass slightly.
Started with a 2.38, then the majority were 2.33, with a 2.31 and a 2.27 to finish - nice to have one of the A&FF guys in-between me and IK for a change too.
Probably keep it relatively quiet this week now, not do Primmy Hill tomorrow as I have the London Champs on Parly Hill on Saturday
Good work Simon. Do you ever have any of those sessions, where early doors you're thinking "i'm not gonna last this session"?
Almost never on my own. Fairly regularly with the club
Simon, the surrey league sounds similar to the Birmingham league we do. we had a 15.20 5k'er finish in the 50's and a 15.59 finish 84th. We have loughborough uni and birchfield harriers in there boosting the sharp end (thats ignoring birmingham uni, cheltenham and tipton who are all strong nationally).
Late vets... there is only so much potential that can be unlocked. after that you are in the the small marginal gains or holding on to the peak. if you start late then the peak will be later. Also those that have been around for 30/40 years have probably kept their training samey for decades...so you get an element of if you keep doing the same things then you will get a similar result..and if you are getting older then times could naturally fade at the same time. plus motivation must fade for some long termers, the amount of injuries adding up plus not hitting previous times must make a decision on is it all worth it to go out 6 days a weeks after 30 years.
The hardest thing about vets running is the recovery.
Although that said i dont think its likely you can hit your max potential if you start late...for example i would have peaked with a much faster 1500m at 25 yrs old than starting at 39 yrs old.
Simon/Dean - the strength of these leagues seems to be seriously boosted by loads of second claimers. Everyone in London seems to turn out in the Surrey League these days, many of them in some other guise than their main club. In the case of the Hampshire League, I noticed that Aldershot took the top 10 positions in the men's race this weekend (I wasn't there myself as had to take the kids somewhere). It was their home fixture, so no doubt stronger than usual, but it included one of the best young runners in the country in Cairess from Leeds, and one of Tonbridge's squad, neither of whom, to my knowledge, have ever raced in Aldershot vests before. Makes for a high standard, if a little lopsided.
Good XC outings all.
SG - It can be tricky, but I do try and go for the 'suck it and see' method with training - just trying to make sure that you have enough in the tank to finish the session - hence why I tend to start off steady. I only really get my session changed mid session if it's just me and IK doing a longer rep - IK would have too long a recovery waiting for me!
Dean/Dachs - Yes there are a few 2nd claimers, but there can only be 2 in the scoring ten maximum in the SL for each team. Also Hercules and SLH have developed more in the last 2-3 years. The Met league is still stronger and is probably, with the Birmingham league the best XC races in the UK quality wise. Surrey and Manchester league pretty good too - be good to study the results of the national or Intercounties to see which leagues they are from.
Pete, someone told me your whole ladies scoring team are all second claim merchants. Cant be true surely
That said in some other races we have had Laura bring in some of her Woking teammates, but I think they are all 2nd claim WV. I personally would rather the league had a limit on 2nd claim or didn't allow them to score at all. You? Do DD or any of the other top clubs have many?
I thought it sounded a little unlikely that your whole lot were 2nd claim.
I'd probably make it first claim to score to be honest, but then I suppose it's not the real red hot competitive element of the saturday leagues. And it'd also make the whole second claim even more pointless than it already is. I'll never forget the time I was kicked out of a team score for Marlow in a race in Wycombe, as I was 1st claim for a team 40miles away! I realised then it was a completely pointless set up having 2 claims. In effect all it allows you to do is show as another club in a result as a token gesture, or run with them occasionally.
Not sure we have any now. I'm not sure if Mr Miller did any races for Datchet a few years ago after signing for Belgrave. He resigned though in anger, after the club moved our champs to 1st claim only
That was a good call on 1st claim scorers though, you can't have someone just swanning in, doing the minimum and winning your champ when their priority is elsewhere!
Can't say I'm out of the woods yet - today's lunch run was supposed to be an effort. It was, but not of the right sort :-) Just a mile at 6:30 pace felt like a five mile sub 6 job
It's not simply being able to improve. It's how high that level ends up as.
Vets of many years standing may well have been training sub-standard for years, but even when they start training at optimum levels, they still don't get close to the late starters.
So there could be a couple of 'wear out' factors involved. One, a peak performance, the second being ATI.
And I imagine the more stress that has been applied over a time frame may determine how quickly that point is reached.
🙂
Re: 2nd claimers - SL used to be unlimited 2nd claimers - and now it's limited to 2 only that have to be declared before the race. I think it's a nice happy medium. Whereas the Chiltern league is first claim only - so I can't score for LBAC in the spare December xc that I usually do for them.
Although with the EA registration automatically comin through, it's linked to your 1st claim club, it's hard to make sure you are counted for your 2nd claim club - like that MK Winter 1/2 I did in February - they had me down as HHH so LBAC didn't win the (admittedly crap) team prize....
...that led to the discussion on crap prizes
Thought it'd be strange for both of them to start at the same time, so had a quick look at the exact ins and outs.
Rackham has a Feb 2004 half marathon at 42 years old as his first PO10. How long did he run before hand?
Rees started running in 1990 at 37, and within 2 years had put a 30min 10k in!
Simply all about natural level isn't it.
Why can I train consistently for years and years, yet Rob F at Datchet, after 2 years of injury and illness, can put a 2month block in and then beat me at a XC?
Simply because at his best he was national level, and at my best I was "decent" at local level
Good is good, great is great. doesnt matter when you start. the cream rises.
Also dont forget that the real elite from their 20's have long since retired. the pool at the top is thinner. So outliers really do stand out. in masters athletics there are very few Antony Whitemans, guys who were world class in their 20s and also in their 40s.
Our series has a whopping 8, so doing 5-6 feels a right old shift.
I've done 2 out of 4 so far, but probably the "easier" (coughs, if you saw me at the end!) ones!
10miler today, little bit weary.
Threw a Burnham Beeches woody bit in midway which really obliterated the pace, but doesn't matter. Managed not to get lost which is no little thing for me in those woods.
Glad to rest the day off now.
Will have to work out the best rest of week strategy, as the mix of those all in short efforts Tue and Sunday race were quite a thrash really.
Might be sensible to bin a formal tempo, and either do something farletky, or lower key, before a LSR sunday
With some trepidation I took the first statin last night and noted, thankfully, no side effects that I could detect.
As for side effects I couldn't detect, this morning was going to find out if my running was compromised.
It was.
Basically, belted around the woods about a minute per mile faster than average for less effort. HR for sub 8 minute pace average came out as 137 bpm.
Strange coincidence. But I'll take it
🙂
You're officially in better shape than me off that Ric.
I put an 8.11 mile in at mile 4 today, pissing about in the woods, and averaged mid 150s.
SG - Here's my possible xc line up, and the ones I'm doing
Oct - Surrey League (Yes), Southern xc relays (Yes)
Nov - Surrey League (Yes), National xc relays (Yes), London Champs (Yes) South of Thames Junior (No)
Dec - Chiltern Lge (Guest) Yes, Southern Masters Yes, SOT Senior (Yes)
Jan - County Champs (Yes), SL (Yes), Southern (Yes)
Feb - SL (Yes), National (Not Sure)
March - Intercounties (No)
So that's 15 - and if that's not enough there are the East Surrey xc relays (on about 3 different weeks)
Although I dare say by the time I've gone from "really don't fancy these" to "quite enjoying them", we'll have run out