Overdone it?

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  • muddyfunstermuddyfunster ✭✭✭
    edited January 2019
    I do shorter than race efforts (e.g. 5k at 10k effort) on some decent parkrun courses, and the pace and effort align with what I would expect in the equivalent race.

    At the moment I'm in good shape and probably around half pb shape (5:50 min/mile on the flat) and I ran 5km on the flat at 5:50 pace in my rehearsal run on Sunday (slightly overdressed, long sleeve top, older pair of race shoes) without once looking at my watch. The effort was exactly on half effort. Although it was a Great Run Local event, it was a time-trial - the nearest finisher was at 24 mins - so perhaps we can discount race day magic applying there ? I've looked at my training paces for effort in controlled circumstances like these; I've looked at race pace for effort and the only difference is that I'm sustaining the effort for longer. But I'm not going faster for longer.

    If 30s per mile of race day magic is available, I'm racing the half at 5:20 pace !

  • Maybe you don't get race day magic because you don't believe?

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    Those stats don't confirm anything though Muddy.

    If you said to me, could I do 10k pace, within a parkrun for 5k, of course I could! It's half the distance, and the parkrun is vaguely race like anyway, whether you've got anyone on your shoulder or not.

    Even more so for HMP for 5k! Try doing it on your own though, and it's harder, of course.

    Doing 10k for 10k outside of a race (or parkrun) is the example we're saying wouldn't happen.
  • Ha ha, yeah.

    I think when you are in a pace zone based training scheme, and you don't modify those zones often, it becomes easier as you approach race day. You may not be quite aware of this as a lot of plans build volume simultaneously too. Though you are still working within those stale zones, you've trained in some extra capacity. With a bit of rest and ideal-ish conditions the capacity is revealed as you push yourself in the race because in effect this is the only session you do based on effort.

    In my case all my sessions are based on effort, and if I'm getting it right, the paces trend faster, and there are no big "magic" surprises on race day.

    I didn't taper for the 10k in Barcelona come to think of it (10m with strides 48 hrs before, 5m easy 24 hours before) . I'm on the fence about tapering on my sort of mileages. I'm probably never too far from being fairly fresh.

    Anyway 9m easy-ish at lunchtime with 6x400m sharp-ish (around 70s), off full jog recoveries.
  • 13.6 so far this week for me.  Have taken a day off today in preparation for my first quality session of the year.  Unsure what to do to be honest.  I found out yesterday I've put on just under a stone over the Christmas period (probably why I've felt a little sluggish recently).  

    May copy DT (again) and do 10 x 2min @ HMP instead of 10k pace...  or I could split the difference and aim for around 7:00.  Think I may have just convinced myself to do that :smile:
  • muddyfunstermuddyfunster ✭✭✭
    edited January 2019
    The thing is I'm not likely to race a 10k in training under those circumstances, and as Skinny says I would benefit from "win the bet" magic :)  So the training metrics are the next best thing I can proffer to illustrate my point that there are not huge gains to had on race day due to "magic". There are marginal gains that i've pointed out but maybe we should focus on the perception of "magic" due to our differences in approach.

    My advice to Kevin was really based on working within his capacity, and not succumbing to the highly charged fast first mile which kills your race stone dead.
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    Your comments on "stale" zones, probably have something in them, for runners on the way up. That way you can "exceed" as you're improving. However, when you get a bit more trimmed down, like I was at the peak of the Moz training zones, you've been training to the paces and then can hit them in a race.

    Best ever example I'll always remember, was doing a 14miler with 8miles easy to steady, 3miles MP, 3miles HMP, and the 3miles HMP came out 5.57
    In the ensuing HM, average pace? Dead on 5.57

    That day I thought wowzers!

    Not sure i'd fancy that sort of run right now. Maybe in a few weeks/months

    or maybe not :)
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2019


    My advice to Kevin was really based on working within his capacity, and not succumbing to the highly charged fast first mile which kills your race stone dead.
    I'm certain Kevin will take this sound advice on board, a lot better than a guy locally.

    I must have raced him about 30 times now, and he's ALWAYS ahead for about 1/4mile and never ahead at the end, even at XC which i'm fairly average at. Very often he's leading the whole race, irrespective of who is in it.

    He was at it on Sunday, despite there being a 50min 10mile man in the race.
    Lead for 100metres, and came 18th

    I try and say, do you not think you should set off at say "teens" sort of placing. But he refuses to accept it has any negative impact on the race.
    And also insists on doing 3 sessions a week, including a 10mile hilly tempo, which he'll do at a pace he can't match in a race the same weekend :)
  • Stevie G said:
    And also insists on doing 3 sessions a week, including a 10mile hilly tempo, which he'll do at a pace he can't match in a race the same weekend :)
    Sounds like he is suffering from Race Day Indifference ;)

    (does magic have an opposite? Lit?)
  • Tommy2DTommy2D ✭✭✭
    What about the magic shoes?

    P.S - West Midlands lot - what's the Warwick Half marathon in early March like?
  • Stevie, my Great Run Local Sunday combo turns into that sort of session, 3 miles to the start, 5k threshold, 2 miles off to the other start, 5k marathon effort, and then back home uphill. I do that a couple of times per training block - not an easy run at all.

    I did my race rehearsal in the magic shoes Tommy. I've ran as fast in racing flats but my calfs and feet took a battering.  Warwick is a hilly one, apparently. I need to book something in for March 3rd to do at marathon effort and will probably choose Warwick, unless I get an invite up north.
  • I'm doing Warwick as it fits around Manchester (thread lunch?). But it is undulating.  I think Coventry is a faster course (love that race) but is a few weeks later. Would work for London though. 

    Welcome Kevin.  I'd say you need to do plenty of Parkruns/low key local races/xc so you just get used to racing regularly. 

    Another good week training here last week - around 40 miles inc 16 w 10 at MP, and the County champs xc race at Newbold Pacey. Got masters team bronze so happy with that.  Cut back week this week which is nice but more xc on Saturday, this one very hilly which does not suit me.  
  • kevin70kevin70 ✭✭✭
    Thanks for all the comments, surely its only race day magic when you pb... (couldn't do a smiley face). 7mls tonight and mile reps tomorrow. Hopefully this will give me an indication for training paces over the coming weeks.

    McFlloze xc in a cut back week, impressive.

    Skinny have you managed anymore runs.
  • macemace ✭✭✭
    edited January 2019
    kevin70 said:
    surely its only race day magic when you pb...


    I think that's where the magic comes from - willing to smash the granny out of yourself for a pb which, unless you're on a huge improvement curve, doesn't happen in training.
  • macemace ✭✭✭
    Sorry for double post but i got pissed off trying to work out how to get out of the quote box 

    Training has tailed off for me the last few weeks so i need to get back to it very soon or i'll need shit loads of magic in April  :o

    Had a meeting in London yesterday and after that I decided to sit in on a murder trial at the Old Bailey for a couple of hours. Fascinating stuff !!

  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Sounds like it's all going well, Mcf. I did look at Coventry but it's same day as Ashby and I could really do with a new hoodie.

    Mace, a somewhat random decision? Were you just wandering by?

    Rest day today with a sports massage a little later. Predictably after weeks of settled weather, it is turning just in time for my race day! 19MPH winds forecast, gusting in to the 30s.


  • kevin70kevin70 ✭✭✭
     DT.. race day magic
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    There'll need to be a lot of magic to offset that on what is a very exposed course. 
  • Tommy2DTommy2D ✭✭✭
    Muddy/McF - I'm tempted by Warwick half will see how things pan out. 

    Ashby is the day after the midland road relays which I'd like to do (if I can squeeze into our team). It's also 2 weeks out from Rotterdam so I opted out of doing it this year. 

    I've got my first XC of the season this weekend, it's been fairly dry recently so the course should be pretty runnable, the wind won't be pleasant though. 
  • Kevin - if your club does xc I think McFlooze's suggestion of racing that is a good one - you won't be aiming for even pacing, so that's one less thing to think about, and it might be that racing for your club rather than just yourself will keep you motivated.
  • literatin said:
    Kevin - if your club does xc I think McFlooze's suggestion of racing that is a good one - you won't be aiming for even pacing, so that's one less thing to think about, and it might be that racing for your club rather than just yourself will keep you motivated.
    Plus you'll be too fucking cold, wet and miserable to stop.......

    Kevin70 - everyone else on thread has learnt not to ask for updates on my running but my foot hurt again next time out after less than a mile so I'm still fucked - no response necessary.

    Ooh two fucks in one post - wonder if I've got hypothermia?
  • kevin70kevin70 ✭✭✭

    Lit - looking at other posts xc is popular this time of year, will need to look at this for next year....

    Last night was 1.5ml w/u, 2x2mls reps with 2 mins recovery, had an average pace of 7.30m/m in mind, came out rep 1 7.15 & 7.27, rep 2 7.14 & 7.27 for and avg of 7.21 and 1.5ml c/d. It is a 2mile loop and the 2nd mile has a couple of wee inclines. Running is weird.... 1st mile was slow down save energy and get to a pace, mile 2 was faster, hurry up.......

    Any advice on what sort of paces I should be going at for these type of runs. Monday I am hoping to do 5mls of tempo/threshold (are they the same thing) but to what pace.

    14mls tomorrow easy pace.

    Good luck to everyone racing this weekend... RDM

    Cheers

  • Hi Kevin,

    I can only offer a tiny bit of guidance and I apologise if a lot of this you know already.  I haven't been running consistently for very long (around 6 months) and still learning as I go.  Keeping things brief and to provide some background, whilst I was running 4 times per week fairly frequently I felt the need to go as quickly as I could.  This would ultimately hinder my progress and I felt tired all the time.  I came on here, asked for help and within a couple of months I ran my fastest 5k.  The key?  Making sure your easy runs are actually easy.

    You said you'd like to crack 1:40 for a half.  This would put your goal HMP at 7:37m/m for a time of 1:39:51.  Once you can do big block of running at this pace (2x3m @ 7:37 or 3 x 2m @ 7:37) then I would say you're well on your way to achieving your goal.  You're obviously capable at running quicker.  I admit to stealing a fair few sessions from DT and I've found pyramid sessions to be hard but ultimately very rewarding.  You can do 5-4-3-2-2-3-4-5 minutes @ your HMP pace with 90 seconds MP in between.   There are many ways to mix it up and I'd say keeping it varied is important.  Give yourself new things to look forward to every week and keep it interesting.

    Other than the quality session, the rest of the runs are at easy pace with perhaps some strides thrown in to keep your legs used to a faster pace.  You already have your long runs factored in so you should be good to go come race day :smile:

    I hope that helps somewhat.  

    Cheers


  • Tommy2DTommy2D ✭✭✭
    And don't forget to practice roaring 'like a man being repeatedly kicked during a mugging' 
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Yes, do in training what you will do in a race!!

    Sorry, in amongst all the other posts, I can't remember what you recent race times are, Kevin? There are lots of different sessions to keep it interesting. In this 11 week block, doing 2 sessions a week, I haven't done the same thing twice. Paces depend on the session. I have been doing quite long tempos, between 6-8 miles in one block and running them at about 10s per mile slower than hmp. They I have been doing long intervals/shorter tempos utilising 5k, 10k and hmp so working all the zones around there. Don't become stuck on one type of tempo run in one very narrow pace/effort zone.

    Weather as always looks set to ruin sunday. The current wind forecast from 10-2 in York on Sunday is 40 mph plus. 

  • mace said:
    I think that's where the magic comes from - willing to smash the granny out of yourself for a pb which, unless you're on a huge improvement curve, doesn't happen in training.
    Fixed the quoting for you ;)

    Which came first the granny or the chimp  by the way ?

    Tommy, McF - in light of the forecast  being rather gusty this weekend for my half, I've opted to enter Newport half on March 3rd. It's a flat one so I can bump it up to an 'A' race if need be.
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    Ah the glory days of being on for a pb, and finding that extra needed when it comes to the crunch.

    As opposed to the "yeah this'll do" for most races :D
  • Is that in reference to my post Stevie ? If so, you may need to explain ?

    I'll race at effort (and there won't be any extra to spare by the time I'm done) this  weekend but I have to be practical and consider that a 40 mph wind will, ironically, take the wind out of my sails.

    If it's a reference to choosing a flat course then you may wish to know I'm racing a hilly mudfest 10 miler start of Feb, and an undulating half Feb 17th. I enjoy it all but I will have to see how the marathon training mileage affects me when it comes to all out racing.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    i take SG to mean that he misses the days of going out racing for a pb, as opposed to the point where you satisfy yourself with a slower time but a generally solid performance. 
  • Stevie G said:
    Ah the glory days of being on for a pb, and finding that extra needed when it comes to the crunch.

    As opposed to the "yeah this'll do" for most races :D
    I always found the worst motivational position was being in a big road race where position was meaningless, not on for a PB but really hurting anyway.
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