Haha, yes ive had a really shit race i was slightly non committal towards go tits up and got beaten by people i really shouldn't of and immediately put forward the threshold shout!
Skinny, i think then what you are saying is that if i can run 6.27mm for 10 in training and not be somehow replicating 10m race effort, then im capable in an actual target race of 15 seconds a mile faster? I'm not sure of that and equally not confident enough to try that after my last 2 shit halfs but think sub 6.20 pace is finally on the cards in a true effort.
I have found that even after a couple of beers I've been sluggish the next day. Either that or it plays havoc with my bowels at around 5 miles in, usually when I'm furthest away from a toilet.
Anyhow I might have but I'm basing my statement on what you are achieving in your training and how you should be able to convert on race day. Don't be shit.
Yeah, I agree in the specific with DT but have seen plenty of people pulverising themselves in training and it not translating to races like SG's example.
If DT really wanted to be confident he was working within his half capacity he should see steady state heart rate for the 10 miles - that is, no drift upwards with time.
That's an interesting thing you've said there muddy. Something that will give me confidence on race day will be knowing that the training I've done leading up to the event means I can pretty much nail whatever goal I've set myself (gale force winds and injury aside).
If say three weeks before I were to do 10 miles @ 7:15 and see a nice steady HR, could I take this to mean things are looking rosy? I know it's not an exact science and we're all different. I'm just looking for perhaps another indication that I'll be ready come race day.
I don’t have years and years of conditioning; I can show quite a few examples of runs within my capabilities with steady state behaviour. People will beg me not to though 😀!
I accept in a race of half to marathon distance that running around your limits can provoke this gradual rise but a targeted training run for either of these efforts should be well under threshold and be at a steady state in decent weather conditions. The slower the rise of hr over time, the better the indication that you will have the capacity come race time.
We tend not to warm up for easy runs or we do them when fatigued from a prior session and that’s why they have some volatility over time.
Believe it or not, I actually would be mildly interested to see what counts s as steady state in a heart rate trace, because they all just look spiky to me.
I would say fatigue/tiredness and HR were two different things. I can feel tired towards the end of a a long run but my HR is still in the comfortable zone.
No, DT, I'm saying that my heart rate would be pretty much the same at mile 3 and mile 10, on a flat route working under capacity. My perception of effort would be another matter.
Based on that split info - it's too high towards the end. Not saying it's not a tremendous session with great training stimulus, but busting through the hm zone in the last couple of miles puts me more in mind of a racing profile than a training profile.
Lit - Optical HR is great at giving nonsense. Also hilly routes make spikes.
DT - I wouldn't have run it to pace and limited effort yes, but if I felt like a bit of leg stretch at the end, I would be quite happy to throw that in. It's not so much about the session itself, but looking at the metrics to understand what you might be capable of in a race situation.
Ah, there are moderate ups and downs Lit, reflecting my own pacing changes (for whatever reason, puddle or pedestrian dodging, clearing a junction etc.) but they are largely flat - in that paces and hr averaged over a mile agree at the front and back ends of the run. Here's one below (McFlooze might recognise), which was running to marathon effort for 7m then having a bit of a surge towards the end.
I guess that the surge meant that he maintained approximately the same pace whilst getting more tired. If he had kept his HR the same his pace would have dropped, in line with the thoughts above that your heart rate probably creeps up over the course of a tempo type session or race (and maybe a n easier run if you're easy runs aren't easy enough).
No, it was just a bit exposed and into the wind - so pace wasn't really responding. I was increasing my effort to catch up with a lady ahead of me that I thought was around my age category (nothing prideful, just curiosity )
I was mainly posting the above for Lit to see the sort of modulations that happen even when keeping perceived effort about right. I'll dig out something more relevant to the discussion with DT if I get time.
Working at my parents' place all day Saturday so didn't really fancy going out in the wind and rain yesterday morning, but forced myself out the door and it felt ok in the end.
Right knee feels alright but i definitely have a touch of PF in my left foot. Problem is i need to get some half decent miles in or even a sub-4 jog won't be pretty. I've averaged 28M/wk since the beginning of November and 35M/wk last 4 weeks.
I stupidly left my only running pair of trainers at work over the weekend meaning I couldn't get out for the long run. Frustrating but there we go. New week this week and the sun is out
The shocking part about that statement was "my only pair of running trainers". Does not compute. You should have just bought another pair .
I had XC on Saturday which was the first genuine mud-fest of the season (and the last). And as they'd needed to reroute the course due to flooding the whole course was a whole mile long! Meant yesterday's long run was a slog fest. Stupidly tried for a MP tempo but legs were not playing so dropped down to normal pace and cut that short at 15 miles.
Go steady on that foot, Mace. I'm having similar doubts as took a week off for a slight calf strain, then a few days off last week for a nasty blister. Also feeling like I've missed too many miles. Since November I've averaged 31 miles. Only 28 miles last week. Will see how next few weeks go or might need to reevaluate.
Morning everyone! I'm down on my mileage too as I've had a disgusting cold and couldn't really be bothered. Because I *always* want to run, I tend to think that if I actually don't want to, I probably shouldn't! So I didn't do a long run and have decided last week can be a 'cut-back' week.
Comments
Skinny, i think then what you are saying is that if i can run 6.27mm for 10 in training and not be somehow replicating 10m race effort, then im capable in an actual target race of 15 seconds a mile faster? I'm not sure of that and equally not confident enough to try that after my last 2 shit halfs but think sub 6.20 pace is finally on the cards in a true effort.
He has longer legs - as a thread we already agreed that longer legs = big advantage
Longer legs but a shit foot at the end of one of the legs = big disadvantage :-(
6, 0, 6.5, 6
If DT really wanted to be confident he was working within his half capacity he should see steady state heart rate for the 10 miles - that is, no drift upwards with time.
Oh no. Please don't re-ignite that discussion.
If say three weeks before I were to do 10 miles @ 7:15 and see a nice steady HR, could I take this to mean things are looking rosy? I know it's not an exact science and we're all different. I'm just looking for perhaps another indication that I'll be ready come race day.
Cheers
Looking at Yorkshire mara, my hr gradually rose through out peaking in the last mile.
I accept in a race of half to marathon distance that running around your limits can provoke this gradual rise but a targeted training run for either of these efforts should be well under threshold and be at a steady state in decent weather conditions. The slower the rise of hr over time, the better the indication that you will have the capacity come race time.
We tend not to warm up for easy runs or we do them when fatigued from a prior session and that’s why they have some volatility over time.
Muddy, so are you saying that if you did a 10 mile tempo you would expect to be no more tired at mile 10 than you were at mile 3?
My average hr was 167 which was in the middle of the 165-170 zone I work them to. My hr for each split went=
155,161,165, 165, 167, 169, 170, 171, 171 and 173
Based on that split info - it's too high towards the end. Not saying it's not a tremendous session with great training stimulus, but busting through the hm zone in the last couple of miles puts me more in mind of a racing profile than a training profile.
Lit - Optical HR is great at giving nonsense. Also hilly routes make spikes.
Ah, there are moderate ups and downs Lit, reflecting my own pacing changes (for whatever reason, puddle or pedestrian dodging, clearing a junction etc.) but they are largely flat - in that paces and hr averaged over a mile agree at the front and back ends of the run. Here's one below (McFlooze might recognise), which was running to marathon effort for 7m then having a bit of a surge towards the end.
Lovely flat route though!
Anyhow HR is a pile of shit (that seems to have helped you become one of best V45 runners in country ).
I don't know much about HR stuff though
I was mainly posting the above for Lit to see the sort of modulations that happen even when keeping perceived effort about right. I'll dig out something more relevant to the discussion with DT if I get time.
Working at my parents' place all day Saturday so didn't really fancy going out in the wind and rain yesterday morning, but forced myself out the door and it felt ok in the end.
Right knee feels alright but i definitely have a touch of PF in my left foot. Problem is i need to get some half decent miles in or even a sub-4 jog won't be pretty. I've averaged 28M/wk since the beginning of November and 35M/wk last 4 weeks.
I stupidly left my only running pair of trainers at work over the weekend meaning I couldn't get out for the long run. Frustrating but there we go. New week this week and the sun is out
I had XC on Saturday which was the first genuine mud-fest of the season (and the last). And as they'd needed to reroute the course due to flooding the whole course was a whole mile long! Meant yesterday's long run was a slog fest. Stupidly tried for a MP tempo but legs were not playing so dropped down to normal pace and cut that short at 15 miles.
Go steady on that foot, Mace. I'm having similar doubts as took a week off for a slight calf strain, then a few days off last week for a nasty blister. Also feeling like I've missed too many miles. Since November I've averaged 31 miles. Only 28 miles last week. Will see how next few weeks go or might need to reevaluate.