Sub 3h15

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  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    cc2, i bought the drinks in single portions for £2.90, which was some how cheaper thsn the chespest box. They have 80g of carbs so a real carb bomb. i think i paid £32 for 12 gels but might find them in singles. 
  • Drinks sound good and worth a punt at that price. If the gels are thick I won't consider them; like you DT I can't deal with a thick gel while running - the High 5 ones are great for that, and their ISO/Aqua versions even better; though bulkier.
  • Leslie HLeslie H ✭✭✭
    edited February 13
    Nicko sounds like a very tough treadmill session 
    DT19 speedy reps
    Gdawg Cracking 10 for a school day .
    SBD nice half time.

    Ground out a very slow 9m on Monday which is further than I've been in a long time and 8.5m hill session last night with the club in quite balmy conditions for a pleasant change.



  • StevieWhStevieWh ✭✭✭

    Great tempo G-Dawg, especially unplanned!

    DT - Interesting to hear what you thought of the Maurten. I wouldn't get on with a really thick gel and I do like to get some caffeine on board as well so I'll stick to SiS for now I think. Great session, looking really good for Sunday

    Nicko - Cracking tempo, do you do any easy runs?

    Badbark - Glad to hear your mojo is returning, good luck in tomorrows marathon!

    SBD - I'm taking it week by week but the plan at the moment is still to run Manchester.

    Speedy - I'm the same on a treadmill! Can't stand them and I'm drowning in sweat after about 5 minutes!

    Leslie - Nice to see you getting back to it.

    4m easy for me last night which felt really good. Will do a bike session tonight and then a pyramid running session tomorrow. In Belfast for the weekend so will hopefully get out for 10k while I'm over there

  • Stevie - yes, but if I am having to do less sessions in a week I prioritise my 3 key workouts. Easy 8-10 planned today and Weston Prom run 5 miler Thursday; won't go flat out but aiming around 32mins as HMP / tempo.

    The speed does feel fast on treadmill, and it gets hot as hell; but I think occasionally those things can make for a good workout (and forces me to stick at pace!)
  • StevieWhStevieWh ✭✭✭
    Makes sense Nicko when I started marathon training at the beginning of 2018 I only ran 3 times a week which were a tempo, intervals and a long run.
  • Gul DarrGul Darr ✭✭✭
    edited February 13
    GD - great tempo run.
    DT - equally impressive reps.
    nicko - cracking too! Some serious training going on here.
    Leslie - that sounds very promising. Nice going.
    17 miles this morning - hadn't planned to do quite so many, but got out pretty early so took the opportunity. First 6 miles was a gradual warm-up (8:52 to 7:49/m) and then did the last 11 @ MP averaging 7:14/m.
  • OO54OO54 ✭✭✭
    I struggle to get any speed up on a treddie but as you say sometimes needs must. Nice warm afternoon in Seville- first impressions good.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    years ago when i was new to running about 3 times a week on my lunchbreak i would go to tge treadmill and run 5k as fast as i could. no warm, just climb on at level 15 and progress over the ks until i could take no more. I managed sub 19 at my peak a couple of times. I wasnt in the shape im in now so it was hard going then. 
  • This may be a good time to have a quick shout out to lurkers and encourage them to introduce themselves.

    This is the sub 3:15 thread so that means running 26.2 miles at about 7:27 pace so you don't have to do 17 miles midweek with 11 at 7:14 pace (that's closer to 3:10) nor do a 1:28 half in a 70-mile week nor a parkrun in 18 or 19 minutes and say it is slow.

    We are all pretty friendly here and a lot have gone sub-3 for the marathon but hang about here as it is more friendly than the sub-3 thread which gets a bit competitive.

    If you are new and looking to go sub 3:15 then this is what I recall as a useful list, maybe others can help sort it out. Ideally:
    • You should be able to do a 20 minute parkrun / 5k
    • You should be able to do a half in about 90 minutes. Some have gone sub 3:15 with slower halfs and others have faster halfs but that seems to be ballpark and allows double + 15 as a conversion.
    • Your 5 longest runs up to the marathon should total close to 100 miles
    • Your long runs can be time on the feet or structured. If structured, they hopefully end faster than they start, so a 20 miler with the first 10 at 8:56 (MP+20%) and the second 10 miles at 8:11 (MP+10%) for about 2:51 overall.
  • Hi, I'm new , first post, looking to go around 3 15 this year, currently 49 nearly 50, started at 44 and run one marathon a year since, 3 21 is my pb from Vienna and i got sub 3 25 in Barcelona and Paris and 3 29 in Boston. I am wondering how long I can expect to improve my pb realistically as I get older? Thinking of cutting mileage a bit... I always did the old run keeper programmes by Jeff Gaudette and have kind of adapted them a bit recently as they no longer exist as such. I've done a 1 35 half but would not be able to do a 20 min 5 k...however i have felt really good crossing the line at 3 21/3 22 and hope I can get close. Thanks for the above list, any advice re training as you start to feel older?
  • OO54OO54 ✭✭✭
    Welcome burgundymike  you are indeed welcome and you will get quality advice from experienced Marathoners if u stick around. In terms of age my Mara performances have dropped about 5 mins over the last 5 years from a peak of 2:58. I haven’t seen such a large decline at shorter distances.
    Well said PMJ.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Mike, your running age is relatively young and your real age isnt so high that youve peaked just yet. My first mara at 38 was 3.18 and my 6th at 42 was 2.59 and i started running with purpose in circa 2013. I still have aspirations of more improvements over all distances. 
  • Where did you get the Maurten from DT?
  • BadbarkBadbark ✭✭✭

    Burgundymike – I turn 50 this year too and have improved every year since I started running 10 years ago. In 2009 I ran the Dublin marathon in 3:48 and it was 2 years and my 5th marathon before I went sub 3:15. It was my 9th marathon before I went sub 3. Last year I ran a PB in Berlin of 2:47:19.

    You should be able to continue improving for years to come. However, from my experience the single most important factor is weekly mileage. The more miles I run (slow) the faster I get at all distances. When I run 50-60 miles a week I can just about run sub 3. To get under 2:50 I need to be running over 100.

    So instead of reducing your mileage my advice is to slowly build it up.


  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Im assuming thats what you are after? Even with a few quid deluvery this was comparably silly cheap to anywhere else. 
  • Thanks for the advice all, guess I just need a bit of encouragement,! I think I may be running my long runs a bit too quick too, and probably do need more mileage at easy pace in the programme. I live in France and I am running Lac Annecy marathon this April so will see how I go, don't suppose anyone has done that one?
  • Leslie HLeslie H ✭✭✭
    edited February 14
    Burgundymike Welcome , As Badbark says the only way to improve your pb is to run more miles not less and maybe focusing on that 1:30 half will get you the extra you need to get your 3:15 goal as the half distance is the nearest to the marathon. The 20 min 5k will probably arrive as a little free bonus along the way ! Age won't be the deciding factor for you just yet though you will have to work a bit harder for any gains than you did in the past .
    PMJ well said ,The sub 3 forum is more like 2:30 to 3:00 forum for people who take running very seriously indeed and where 100 mile a week is just ok lol  !!!!
    Gul 17 before work is hardcore .
  • Mike, welcome! 

    In terms of age and PBs, the WAVA curves show there is an inevitable decline as you get older. The curves are, however, a statistical average and everyone is an experiment of one so you can clearly buck the trend to some extent. 

    For my own interest as much as anything else, the WAVA curves are at 100% for men up to 35, at about 50 they drop to 90% and then by 62 they are at 80%, 74 70%. That means that if you ran a 3:15 at 35 years old and kept the same WAVA grading you would run 3:36 aged 50, 4:03 at 62 and 4:38 at 74.  

    The things that go counter to WAVA are, as others say, your running age. You are a relatively new runner and so your legs are adapting and getting stronger so that counters the onset of age. 

    The other factor is experience and expectation. For shorter distances, you can experiment so if you do a parkrun each and every Saturday you can afford to go off like the hounds of hell are after you and blow up and adjust that a bit so you eventually hit that magic spot where you die as you cross the line having given it all. For longer distances, it is different. We don't do a marathon each week (unless you are badbark) so most people take a conservative approach with the view that it is better to have a bit in reserve for a strong finish than it is to risk the wheels coming off. That means people set out and do a first marathon in say 3:30 and find it OK. They then set a target a bit faster for the next one and achieve that, and so advance bit by bit, year on year. You could, of course, throw caution to the winds and give it all and you may reap the reward. I did so in 2012 and that got me my PB.

    I just had a quick look at www.marathondulac-annecy.com. Looks like it could be a good race to run: course seems flat and quality seems high. I need to think about coming out of semi-retirement and maybe a spring trip to France in the spring is something the wife would buy into. 





  • OO54OO54 ✭✭✭
    That explains the name Mike! I lived in France a few years but never did that one. I’ve done Paris marathon 5 times. 
    Just had my traditional 6 course hotel breakfast. I reckon I’ll be 3 kilos heavier by Sunday!
  • Gul DarrGul Darr ✭✭✭
    PMJ :)
    Mike - welcome to the thread; always good to have new people join. I am 52, been running seriously for 10 years, and still managing the odd PB, so be optimistic! You seem to have a good conversion from the shorter distances up to the marathon - it does vary a lot from person to person. As Badbark said, increasing mileage is a good way to improve your times. But I would say build it very slowly and allow your body time to adapt. Getting older certainly doesn't help in that respect! Lac Annecy marathon sounds great - my wife has been interested in a visit to that area for a while, so sounds like a win-win.
    Had to be home early this morning to prepare a Valentine's breakfast, so just 10 easy miles today.
  • BirchBirch ✭✭✭
    edited February 14
    Hi, Mike - as your "running age" is around 6 years, I'd say you have some years of improvement to come - as PMJ says - your legs are still adapting; and I certainly agree with Badbark's assertion re mileage (although 70 mpw was my sweet spot, rather than BB's 100)  :)  

    interesting, Philip "The things that go counter to WAVA are, as others say, your running age"     (warning - "me" section coming up)  . . . .   
     
    my running age is 33, now in my 34th year , at chronological age 64.  

    my HM PB of 75:58, and Marathon PB of 2:46 (set in 1990 & 1991 respectively), represent 79.nn% and 76.nn%  WAVA scores.  In Spring 2015, age 60, I ran 1:29:32 HM and 3:18:43 VLM, which, again represent 79% & 76% WAVA,  over a 25 year period . .
    I don't know what (if anything) this means (any opinion, Philip?)  , but I do know those results gave me great satisfaction.  Which brings me to the next point in the "age effect" debate - sudden decline. That 3:18 marathon is 7:35 pace - in other words, 23:30 5K pace - this is now a flatout parkrun for me, indicating my performances have dropped off the proverbial cliff, not merely declined steadily.  

    from reading various studies/articles , it seems that what has occurred in my case, can be likened to riding the "down" escalator - for a time, older athletes, in training, although the trend is downwards, are still making the usual "train, recover, adapt, get stronger" gains, - these are not enough to make progress up the escalator, but they do alleviate the descent, to some extent. However, one study I read (can't remember which, now ), stated that there may be a limit to the amount of adaptation cycles the muscle fibres can perform, so in effect, they throw in the towel !!   

    I reckon that's what's happened here, and , to be perfectly honest, even though it makes sense, and I've had a good run for my money (no pun intended), it has been quite demoralising at times.   
     
    So, get those miles in, Mike - and you'll progress up that escalator for a while yet :)    
     
    meanwhile, its a lovely day here, so time to get out for a "run"  
  • Welcome to the forum Mike. It's a lovely place with some very experienced and talented runners, plus me.

    I won't add much except to say your running age is the same as mine and I defintely think major improvements can still be made even with more years on the body clock.

    Annecy is such a nice place so marathon there sounds great - the views will be incredible; I would recommend Marathon du Medoc for a bit of fun as well. Look forward to hearing your progress.
  • BadbarkBadbark ✭✭✭
    edited February 14

    I ran my 80th marathon/ultra today. Having run 82 miles over the previous 6 days I wasn’t going into the event fresh. The plan was 7:15 pace to about 20 miles then coast at around 7:40 pace for the final 10k and a comfortable sub 3:15.

    As I’m flying off on holidays soon the organiser let me start early. The event is a 6 hour challenge with the option of stopping at a measured marathon distance. The prizes would be only for those doing the full 6 hours. I began at 7:18 am without a warm up which resulted in a slow first mile of about 7:40. After a 7:30 second mile, I got into a good rhythm of around 7:10 pace.

    The course was out and back 6 times along a coastal path. The rest of the field started just after 8am and I was on my way back on the second lap when we crossed. I reached half way in 1:35 feeling good. I maintain my pace to about 20 miles then I allowed it to drift heading into the wind for the final time. However with 3 miles to go I was feeling great and realised that 7 m/m to the finish would give me a sub 3:10. So I pushed on over the last few miles going under 7 m/m pace comfortably.

    I finished in 3:09:25 with an average HR of only 136 bpm. I had plenty left in the tank and my confidence and mojo have definitely returned! I’m now off to Spain for some warm weather training and plenty of drinking!  :D :D

    Edit - nice medal too!



  • Birch, the thing with WAVA is that it does help to remove that "falling off a cliff" effect. Below is a plot of the 75% WAVA score for a male over a road 5k against age.

    The WAVA tables show that from 23 to 27 the score is 1, so a 23 to 27 year old male is measure against the world record. To score 100% you need to run 12.xx for 5k, to score 75% you need 17:12. Once you get to be "older" than 27, the WAVA calculations allow you to run a bit sower and still hit 75%, so at 34 you can still do 17:30 and at 52 years if you can do 20 minutes dead you are still 75%. You can see the curve slopes up and gets steeper, so not only do you get slower as you get older, but you get slower faster, so the 2.5 minutes you dropped from 34 to 52 (18 years) get dropped again from 52 to 65 (13 years) and again from 65 to 74 (9 years).

    So, absolute performances do drop like the proverbial but WAVA does give some solice.  



  • BirchBirch ✭✭✭
    thanks, Philip - 
    the calculator I use 
    http://www.panix.com/~elflord/wava.html
    scores 23:32 at age 64 as 70%, which is my "self-respect" baseline, so I'll try to take solace from that :)    !!  
  • Weston Prom 5 miler tonight, nice race about 300+ people. Pancake flat; out and back and out and back and then out and back and out and back again - so a fair few dead turns.

    Just ran to feel, a bit of a slow start with some crowding but got into it and felt pretty good all the way through. Was aiming to run tempo pace with 6:25/mile but ended up coming in 31:15 averaging 6:15/mile with all splits pretty close.

    Happy with that and feeling a little more confident for Thorpe Half next Sunday.
  • Thanks again to everyone , I will report back on Annecey, it does sound a good flat track with some nice views, I did Beaujolais marathon when I was very young with no training, the course took you through wine cellars and over steep hills and cru beaujolais was available every 5 km!! I ran 4 20 which I thought was pretty good in the circumstances! Medoc sounds good too...

    I am encouraged to add some mileage and go for it for a few more years!

    By the way, when I see people saying 80 or more miles a week, how long a period would that be over pre marathon? My plans have built up to running 80/90 km a week over 16 weeks so I am thinking I am well short..

    hopefully I will be back to offer some advice to others soon and give something back, I am located near to Dijon in Burgundy, so yes Paris is closest big race and is a fantastic event, done it twice, I would also highly recommend both Vienna and Barcelona marathons if a trip to Europe appealed to anyone. I have applied to London for 7 years now without luck, but would also love to go back to my roots and do the Edinburgh marathon one day, that one sounds a great event. Drop us a line if anyone is doing a French marathon! The way things are going though I may get chucked out of France soon if brexit puts on its worst disguise!!
  • OO54OO54 ✭✭✭
    My max mileage pre Marathon is usually mid 60 miles per week and I’m averaging 50 per week over the year. 
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