Howdy, Stranger!
Categories
P&D Spring Marathon 2019
The materials in this website are in no way intended to replace the professional medical care, advice, diagnosis or treatment of a doctor, qualified personal trainer, therapist, dietitian or nutritionist Runners's World, Part of the Hearst UK well-being network © Copyright 2017
Comments
I decided to read chapter 1 of P&D again, as I hadn't for a while when I made my statement about MP. The explanation on how to improve the key physiological attributes for marathoners seems confused as the section speaks about: improving LT through LT runs; improving glycogen storage (through total volume and runs > 90 mins); improving running economy (through strides and accumulated miles) and improving your VO2 max through VO2 max training. But then there is a section on training at marathon pace which vaguely speaks about it combining all the previous benefits and the specificity principle. I'm not sure exactly why I went to the effort to re-read it as I like to follow the plans exactly and I wouldn't want to lose the MP runs as they're a great confidence boost when you hit the times. Anyway, I suppose if you take at face value the Magness & Marcus podcast posted previously, the 'best' training pace is a moot point as it's about varying the training stimuli.
I had an interesting 10 miler tonight, purely because there seemed to be some kind of running 'event' starting on the corner of Clapham common, which I had to dodge. The dress code was interesting and included a few people dressed like red disco balls and a guy running in only women's underwear and a blonde wig. I had considered it might be a Clapham Chasers event, but figured if it was I'd have seen Joe running in his budgie smugglers.
Joe re magic shoes: I took advice from spoons and went for the same size as my Adios, a 10. I have a slightly newer version that spoons, and I suspect they are slightly snugger. I am more than happy with them, but would consider half a size bigger in the future.
Pleased you’re on the mend, AWC. A cheeky ultra will sharpen you for Shakespeare! Great that you love the ultras so much. Excited to see what you’ll run in the marathon.
Very sensible, Steve. The P&L is awesome, and I hope you get your goal half this time!
Don’t worry, HPR. I had the snacks and the beer… Big week planned for you. Hope it goes well. Are you on the strava group? I haven’t worked out who everyone is.
TR your campaign is going superbly – take the positives.
Macca I noticed that too – that week looks unbelievable for ‘recovery’. Sure it is a mistake. It is an absolute beast! Although I have no doubt you’ll smash it out of the park.
Nice swimming, Ramjet. Not sure I could have stopped on 98.
Probably treading a fine line on the sleep front, but thought I’d crack on with the long run today as it is half term next week so hopefully a chance for some rest. Nice to have a tail wind for 85%, albeit only 6 or 7 mph. It definitely gave me some assistance in averaging 7:06m/m for the 22M. There is something very satisfying about running A to B, not something I often do. Mind you, my wife definitely thinks I am mental. She is probably right.
Nice XC Millsy.
Sounds like a tough day Ramjet, but it’s still 18 miles in the bank.
Sensible to have a rest day Jooligan.
Great weekend Steve.
Glad you’re well again AWC, great LT sounds like you haven’t lost too much.
Joe I wear 10.5 in Adidas too, I went for a 10 with the original Vaporfly which worked well. I just tried on my VF Flyknits after SQ’s comment - they do feel a little smaller than the standard 4%s, but still feel comfy in a 10 for me. I think the flyknit material means they will feel a bit more snug than a regular shoe. Stock does seem better recently with them - the latest blue colour is still is stock in most sizes at SportsShoes, previously they’ve sold out almost instantly never to return.
I reckon I’d manage about 10 lengths Ramjet
HPR/AWC variety is always good, and I think it’s also about finding what works for you. Some respond really well to lots of shorter, sharper stuff, but I never seem to get anywhere when I try that. Efforts around MP certainly seem to work for me. Luckily I enjoy grinding out the miles!
Always nice when you can see improvement on just regular easy runs AWC.
Great long run commute SQ. Mental, but in a good way!
I channelled my inner Zátopek this morning for 30x400m @ 10K pace with 200m jog recovery from the NAZ marathon plan. I started out at the pace I ran Linda Franks 5 at (1:30ish per 400m) but they were feeling comfortable so I pushed a little faster after the first 3. It’s slightly daunting at the start when you have so many reps still to go, but I settled in to a good rhythm and stayed nice and consistent. Average of 1:27 (5:50/mi pace) with all between 1:30 and 1:25 except the last one when I put the foot down a bit more and managed 1:23. Nice to be able to do that at the end, shows I’d paced it well.
Overall very pleased, if that really is my 10K pace then it bodes well for Wokingham and while I don't think I'm in PB shape it suggests a sub-80 might not be beyond the realms of possibility. Definitely feels like I’ve taken a step forward over the last week or so.
Nice run commute AWC, always nice to see the pace rising on the same routes.
Spoons/SQ - thanks for the magic shoe advice, I now have a pair on order. It seems that they have loads of the blue direct from the nike website, all sizes, so that's easy enough. Both logging excellent longer runs this morning, great work.
Glad you mentioned Wokingham Spoons. I think there'll be a small cluster of us all going at a very, very similar place. Might throw a couple of sandbags your way if you're umming and ahhing about going sub 1:20 - can't see any way how you won't be way under that.
Surprisingly good 15 this morning (7:04mm) after a big bike session last night.
Well done on the MLR, Joe. Coming together very nicely for you. You've got the WR for fastest swimmer. What about fastest cyclist? Aero helmet and cleaty shoes a must.
I always get off put by the fact that I ran low 1:17 last year and I'm fairly sure I'm just not in that shape right now. But I guess you can't live life that way.
SQ - running in cleats would be an absolute nightmare. I was thinking about the 4 of us, with Macca absolutely blowing it out of the water if conditions are good. Reg would've been up the road but looks like he's currently struggling with injury again unfortunately.
Hi guys, quick check in. These two posts made me laugh out loud:
And spoons' Zatopek stylee 400s were mighty impressive. Well done.
Hope you all get your magic shoes
Still chugging along. 8 weeks to go. First VO2 max. session today - quite brutal 3x1200 and 3x1000 but in the end they felt less bad than I thought they would. Started a bit too slow most probably. It was more like 10k pace but I really didn't want to die on my arse and be unable to finish.
Chicksta, I was thinking the opposite 4% on a slower time is more that 4% on a faster time!!! which makes them better value for money (Man maths)!
13.1 MLR for me today 1:40 min aerobic zone
Spoons / 12k at 10k pace, monster session, you’re going to wear out that tow path though.
Another quick LR SQ, being mental is such a subjective assessment, funnily enough I have heard similar myself.
FBT - is that a 0.1m departure from the plan 😡?
Speedy MLR Joe. Like HPR, I’m going to try to push the bigger sessions forward next week in view of Woky, an option perhaps ?
On the subject of Woky, I was thinking about bringing 3/4mile of bungy cord but after seeing some of these recent sessions, maybe that’s not enough.
I might try to log a park run this weekend to gauge where I am, 1/2 pb is 1:24 but I think I’m in better shape than that (usual caveat on the day disasters etc) so I‘m not sure how much to try and bite out of it.
Ramjet - im impressed you counted the 98, i had to swim reps and take lap times as i alwsys used to lose interest snd miscount.
SQ - cracking long run. Once you are committed you have to keep going when its a point to point.
Spoons - big session there, got to be a confidence booster there.
Joe - hope the shoes work. There was plenty of folks at worthing with them on.
Well done on the mlr FBT.
Back to it for me today with 15m home tonight.
FBT tidy MLR there. Training's working it's magic so need to make even Nike richer. PF under control?
AWC Are the improvements in pace from RPE or HR?
You back up to speed now then Chicksta?
Love the sound of that session Spoons & sounds like it went really well too.
Well done on the 15 TR. Same for me too
15 for me as well. This run was the complete opposite to Sunday's miserable long run attempt. The weather was fantastic, the legs felt strong and with a tailwind in the second half the pace was about 7:00. Feels like spring out there.
Just a quick question. I've got a mate asking be about getting some calf compression sleeves as he's had a calf strain and feels he's always on the verge of having another. I know SQ uses them but I was wondering if people thought they made much difference for recurrent calf strains?
Will catch up properly when I've got more time.
Jools - not sure if the PF is under control. Painful walking and limping a bit but no pain running ... a bit weird, is this normal? I back off when it gets too bad and it calms down. plan is to have a few days off before Brighton half next week.
HA calf compression is snake oil in my opinion... (but then I take beetroot juice before a marathon so I can't talk)
Rammers I noticed that a spring like feel to the weather does seem to help...
I know there are big summer goals, Joe, but I reckon giving yourself a mini taper before Wokey would enable a truer evaluation of your fitness. That should enable real goals to be set. And a removal of the sandbags all around! I think the inspiration you can take from a strong race time can outweigh the short loss of training prior to the race. A careful balance as you couldn’t do this every week, but it is the approach I am planning on taking for Wokey.
Sorry to hear Reg is injured. You were going great guns, but I guess got unlucky.
Nice vO2, chicksta. First bit of Pfitzinger vo2 on the thread this Autumn, I think.
Good MLR, FBT. Nothing like a casual half to put the public to shame.
Macca you definitely have the potential to go significantly quicker than 1:24, taper and weather permitting. Jump on the thread bus. I think there is a 75 minute pacer - would be good if there was an 80 min one too.
Jools you had a fantastic PB at Wokey last year, so why not give VB a solid crack this year? AS you say, weather dependent.
Very strong MLR, Ramjet. The mornings are getting lighter. Nonetheless I am jealous if you get to run in full daylight! Lovely afternoon yesterday.
HA - I have worn compression socks (knee length) for a few years, but primarily as a cool weather option. It’s funny you say about calf sleeves – I have never worn any until yesterday. After buying some Rymora socks last week, I had a bit of a moan to the company that they weren’t as tight as they advertised. They sent me some sleeves to compensate. As they were free, I gladly accepted (Tight Arsed Tuesday), but I was conscious of looking a bit too much like a triathlete (sorry, Joe). Unfortunately, they weren’t any tighter, but did give a great high viz option for yesterday’s road run. My general feeling is that there isn’t much in it, but the tightest pair I have (More Mile) make the calves feel well supported. I probably tend towards wearing my socks more if I have had a calf strain, but certainly don’t think they’re any kind of magic bullet. The biggest benefit for me regarding calf strains has been getting on the rumble roller. That, and judicious use of racing flats – ie ensuring I test them out a bit before sticking them on for a half.
Yesterday’s long run then Wednesday afternoon weights left me pretty tired last night. I planned on skipping this morning’s run. In the end, I slept really deeply, not even waking up to check my blood sugar level. As I happened to wake up at 5.30, I had enough time for the scheduled 7M recovery. Kept it to soft surfaces for the standard 8:40m/m. Listened to one of the new Strava podcasts – reasonably interesting, but wouldn’t be top of my list.
MLR tomorrow, which means Sunday’s XC most definitely will be untapered. I kind of like it that way – just keeps it strictly fun.
Macca - if I were you, I'd be looking at a rather big bite.. Being completely honest, I think you're in shape to go under 80 mins as a minimum. Not sure what to do next week yet, maybe just a couple of easier days beforehand - will see how hard I go this weekend.
Magic shoes are on the way and should be present in Wokingham.
Tempo session in Battersea Park this morning and another nod to things moving in the right direction. Continuous 6 mile tempo, alternating 1 mile at tempo pace with half a mile 'float'.
Miles were 5:54, 5:51, 5:54 and 5:53, with the float being run around 6:35mm. Total time for 10km (I added on the extra 0.2) was 37:58 - quite pleased with that, legs felt very heavy but aerobically was good.
P.S - this is getting dangerously addictive
HA - i used to get calf strains when i cross trained for Tri, but i think it was bike and dehydration related. Never ran in sleeves but used skins for recovery, roller and hot water bottle helps too. I alsi do some calf raise on a step at the end of a few runs each week.
Joe - nice work.
Backed up last nights 15 with progressive 10 today, 5 av 8.21, 5 ab 6.49. Good to be back to it.
I wish I had as much confidence as you do in my running Joe! It’s only a few weeks ago I ran around 6 min/mi for 5 miles in a race, so 6:06 or faster for 13.1 feels like a big jump. But training has gone well and I do generally get better as the distance increases so I’m not ruling anything out and I’ll certainly be going for it. Great tempo session from you this morning.
Better to start conservatively and finish strong than start too fast and blow up chicksta, top work.
Great MLRs FBT, TR, and Ramjet. And great progression run too TR.
Macca I debated where to do the session, I opted for that section as it’s clear of trees (for GPS) and generally less dog walkers than the race course. I agree with the others, your half PB is due a serious revision next week!
Good luck at XC SQ. Sure running that on untapered legs will be great marathon training.
FBT my PF was a lot like that, generally felt ok once I got running but very sore afterwards and when I first woke up. Eventually it did start to hurt during running too, which is when I had to take the time off. Have you been doing any stretches/exercises for it?
I was unsurprisingly feeling pretty tired after yesterday’s session, so skipped my afternoon recovery run (a terrible mistake allowing Joe to overtake me
). However I did muster up the motivation to do some S&C in the evening. Legs felt surprisingly good for my easy ten this morning, I think I’ve reached that point where they are just used to being tired. Definitely looking forward to cutting back next week though.
Spoons - that's spot on - sore after running (like limping a bit) and first thing in the morning (barely stand on it)...Only have to limp out about 7-8 more weeks of training .... how long till you needed time off.
I was doing the exercises but I admit I've been a bit slack the last week or 2
Spoons-Excellent Zatopek session earlier this week. With a mini taper, you might just surprise yourself at Wokingham
TR-Great progressive run. I find them the most confidence-boosting
Joe-Great morning tempo, especially as it was solo. I have to do my tempo runs with people to hit the paces I want. Top of the Strava table too!
SQ-I feel calf sleeves help me when I have shin splints but that could just be a placebo effect
Ramjet-Nice 15 miler. Love running on a mild sunny day
Manged to make a right tit of myself at the gym yesterday. During an interval I dropped my phone onto the treadmill belt which catapaulted it backwards into the treadmill behind me. Thankfully no-one was hit and the phone survived but having to pick up the various phone components in front of everyone was rather embarassing!
Work is much better this week so managed to get out for 7 miles easy and will back up with a tempo session this evening. Hoping to make it up to 10 miles with extended warm up and warm down
George- good to see that work is a bit easier this week, yes it’s definitely feeling like spring out there.
Macca, I think on current form you will be knocking on the door of 1.19.59 at Wokingham. Your training performance is well ahead of where I was this time last year when I got 1:21:26.
I dont one think I’m quite back at that level just yet. Hopefully will be by Fleet but looking back at last year i was averaging about 70 MPW in the first 6 weeks of the year. I’m currently just below 50.
Massive miles, Joe & Spoons.
. A running mate of mine swears by them though. Probably won't hurt to try them.
Jools: Yeah, my body is back, thank god. Nice 15 from you.
Ramjet: Great confidence-boosting 15 - glad you felt better. You were probably just a bit underfuelled the other day.
HA: Can't help with calf sleeves. My calves are about the only body part that's not giving me grief
TR: Nice double-digit running on consecutive days.
FBT: Get your arse in gear and do those exercises
SQ: Your body must have needed that sleep. Well done for still getting your recovery run done.
George: Nightmare! Glad the phone survived. My worst gym fear is smashing someone's head with a rogue kettlebell when I do swings
Followed yesterday's VO2max up with a 12 mile MLR today. Legs a bit wary but I guess that's the point.
Millsy- hopefully I'll make Fleet too.
Chick - nice one on the mlr.
Jools - legs were a bit tired during the mp miles, but i guess thats the point, easy tomorrow, long run Saturday, then hopefully 5 more weeks of decent training hopefully, with no ice and no races, I'll get a few 3min rep sessions in. Fingers crossed for no more ice.
SQ - I am currently working for myself so get to choose when to run. While I absolutely don't miss running in the dark I do miss starting the day with an endorphin rush.
Nice Tempo Joe. You need to join a triathlon group on Strava so all your swimming and cycling hours get counted as well.
Nice 10s TR, Spoons and Steve.
Glad you have a hardy phone George!
Well done on the weary MLR Chicksta.
Just a recovery 10K for me and an easy cycle.
Does anyone with an Apple Watch keep track of their VO2 Max score? Mine has gone up by 2 since I started the marathon training. Hope I'm not peaking too soon!