Over 60's training (Part 2)

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  • Good to see you back on here Ray, and hope everything is going well on the other side of the world. Don't rush things!

    Birch: enjoy watching the Nationals. Shame I can't be there; always a great spectacle and a great chance to meet up with people. No doubt I will get a blow by blow account on Monday from my M73 neighbour who is running. 

    LFoM: having been suffering with a chest infection I was very much in two minds whether to run so ran well within myself, setting off particularly slowly and gradually moving through the gears without ever getting into top. Didn't sprint at the end! So, very pleased with 22:59 on my watch. That of course ticked over to 23:00 on the official results. 72.4% WAVA and 1st M65 in my first M65 race. Pleased. And I never find it a particularly quick course. Obviously antibiotics and steroids seem to being doing the trick but would have been silly to push any harder. Will be very disappointed if I can't run a minute or so quicker come May or June.
    Wore shorts and vest for the first time for two years!
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • TS - 3 miles is still not to be sniffed at, although the spring flowers clearly are! Hope that a huge England win gives you a bit of a lift.

    Ray - good luck with the gym. I keep prevaricating on whether to sign up. I know what would happen if I did: I'd get a host of upper body injuries to keep my lower body ones company.

    Parkrun today: 22.09, so a bit slower than last week. The weather was fab - but for a nasty stiff easterly after the turn. Our course is slightly uneven - the 'ou't (heading west) is shorter than the 'back'. So an easterly is particularly unwelcome. How's that for Olympic class excuse making?


  • Ray A2Ray A2 ✭✭✭
    TS-love those misty sunny mornings to run in.Hope the rugby goes our way.

    Dave-watched the news about the fly past on what must have been a very emotional day.A few of our club are running the nationals today.Nice workout in the midst of six miles.


    Alehouse-that's a excellent time when not feeling 100%and i agree with you that you will run quicker.

    John-still a good time John. Your very consistent.

     Club 5k handicap for me this morning and my time was the slowest of the thread in 23:51.The course has one very long hill and a shorter one so quite taxing.Have to admit I wore a long sleeve top but did wear shorts,well I am a southern softie.
  • Alehouse - sorry I missed you posting earlier. That's a really good time and a 1st in category is a great feeling. I'll be chasing you on December 27th (65th birthday) but I think you'll be chasing my times before then at this rate. Was it a fast course?

    Ray - I too am a southern softie; that sounds like a non-softie course though. With respect to your gym work are you just trying to speed up or are you doing weights and stuff. I used to be a bit of a gym-bunny but these days just tend to do pull-ups, dips and push-ups. I find that having a relatively light body-weight lends itself to those sort of exercises.
  • That time would give you a decent wava, TS! Well done!

    JB: Hyde Park is deceptively undulating! Yesterday's course had 4 inclines and I usually struggle on three of them. That is the traditional one lap course. There is an alternative two lap course which many people find harder. 
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • Ray A2Ray A2 ✭✭✭
    John-not sure what i am really trying to do to be honest.My workout is mainly cardio which is 2000m on rower around 10 mins in time-30 minutes on the bike at level 10---30mins on the x-trainer at level 10---60 abs crunches in 4sets of 15---then some power plate exercises to stretch the legs.This takes around 2hours if I do everything.
  • Mick6Mick6 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2019
    Ray,
    Good to see you back. Your running seems strong despite your worries.

    Still in Barbados. The running is great despite the heat. I get out really early and run a small golf course nearby.
    Swimming everyday as the water is perfect.
    Mick
  • Mick6Mick6 ✭✭✭
    Ray, 
    Interesting gym session, as you said, heavy cardio. I only do the rower when I cannot run for whatever reason. I row for 5k, I have not managed to break 20 mins, best is 20:40.
    My sessions usual start with 5 mins warm up on the spinner, then some dynamic stretches which include lunges.
    I then do 3x10 bench presses, pull ups and dips. I switch to legs to give my upper body a rest.
    I do 3x12 monster walks with a rubber band around my ankles, then squats with it around my thighs. Then one leg balancing, then bridges on a big ball, followed by crunches.
    One leg squats 3x10.
    Finish up with arm curls and overhead press.
    Mick
  • john bateman 6john bateman 6 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2019
    Alehouse - your time, given it was an undulating course, was extra impressive. My home course is one of the fastest in the country and therefore times are quite flattering.

    Ray - if it works for you then that's a good regime. I got into rowing briefly. I was not a natural (short levers; lightweight). I managed sub 8 mins for 2k once and it nearly killed me. Funnily enough I had a go on a rower that my son 'donated' to us and that Mrs JB uses. It really got to my knees and back. End of rowing. (Shame as I know someone getting rid of a Concept 2!)

    Mick - that regime looks very well worked out (I speak from no expertise whatever). I tackled some weighted pull-ups today  - just 10lbs or so. 


    Had a silly run yesterday:  tried to chase my training partner up a hill. No chance of catching him and a poor choice the day after a quickish parkrun with injuries looking for an excuse to happen. 


    Am away for a few days working. A good excuse not to take the trainers and to have a bit of a rest. Besides, I'd only get lost running around an unfamiliar town (Northampton, as it happens).



  • Hello my friends; having a hard job keeping up with RW threads.
    TS, just stay back from those crocuses, will you?
    Still running. Very slowly. To my delight, a new parkrun is starting up this coming weekend, a mere 7 miles away. I shall certainly be there, - following which I must hurry off to Rhayader as I have offered to help at the annual 20-mile Round the Lakes. Probably handing out medals and T shirts to the finishers. One year they ran through a blizzard, but I think this year sunstroke is more likely.
  • Ray A2Ray A2 ✭✭✭
    Columba-good news on the parkrun being fairly close.

    Mick-that is a hard core workout you do.

    John-hope the Northampton stay is okay.

    Track session last night was 5x1200m with 200m recovery between reps.
    7:08--6:58--7:01--7:04--7:06
    Gym session this morning I was feeling a bit fatigued.
  • John
    where are you -  I need a word about Cardiff!!

    Dave
    watched the fly past on TV - good to see such a large crowd turn out - fitting reqard for the years of dedication by Tony to the memorial.
    You were quite close by at Harewood - must have been a hilly course there as I have run the trails through the park many times

    Alehouse
    very good time at Hyde park - as you say it's an undulating course with quiet a lot of sharp corners which all slow one down a bit.  Pity about the clock ticking over!!

    Mick
    I don't know how you can stand the heat for so long :)!

    Columba
    good news on a new parkrun course - enjoy.
    The weather looks to be slipping back a bit so it may be a multi layer day on Saturday at Rhayader.
    The crocus are safe from me for quite a while - i don't think I could get anywhere near maxHR just now!

    Ray
    you are back into the thick of it on a tough 5K course despite  the southern softie long sleeved tee :)
    Very consistent reps on the track - was that a walk recovery or a timed one?

    Like John I have been travelling quite a bit this week but have had a few shambles out including this morning when I finally wore my new Adidas Ultraboost shoes for 4 miles in 38 min (9:30m/m) with avHR of 131 and a max of 152  in very cool conditions. They must have helped me a bit as did missing out the top half the hill on my usual route!!

    I had an email announcing the new Acsis running shoe and clicked on - £250 a pair!!!!!!  I think not........
  • ...oh yes - my Garmin announced that I now need 44 hours recovery before my next run!!!
  • Graham LGraham L ✭✭✭
    NZD, bearing in mind your doing no proper HM training, the wind and hills, I'd say that 2:06 was very impressive. Nice photo from the race to remember too.

    TS, I don't run the very congested Newcastle parkrun these days so luckily can't be beaten by that 9-year-old. He'll be  ahead of many others though. Good for him. Sorry you're still struggling but at least you enjoyed the sun and crocuses and more recently your new shoes. 

    Dave, hope you enjoyed the Nationals. 

    John, good parkrun time considering the strong headwind,

    alehouse, fast parkrun from you too, especially as you weren't running hard.

    Mick, don't know if your back home yet, If so, hope the change in temperature isn't too drastic. We were lucky to arrive back from Tenerife to very unusually warm weather at home.

    Ray, two very good track sessions there. I was particularly impressed by the 4 x 1 mile one. I may just have been able to keep up for the first two by running flat out, but the last two? No chance. The 7:11 final mile was great stuff. 

    Columba, enjoy the parkrun, and the marshalling. Don't think anyone will be getting sunburn though now the weather's broken.
  • Graham LGraham L ✭✭✭
    A late report on last weekend's parkrun, on a pretty flat course. In short I reached one target but just missed another. The positive was passing the 70% AG after getting near a couple of times. On the other hand I was hoping to get under 25 minutes but missed out by a couple of seconds.

    A little disappointing as I'd done 25:16 the week before on the very hilly course and experience tells me that one is a good minute slower than quicker parkruns. Then I thought about what training I've been doing and it began to make sense, My two main routes for the last three months or so both have quite a few short but steep hills. On the other hand I've done very little what could be called speed work. So, unintentionally really, I've been geared to running better on hilly courses and less so on easier flat ones. No problem but I'll start a bit of regular speed work soon.

    Tomorrow is the last cross-country of the season. It's at Alnwick and my favorite one, as it is for many people. I've missed the last three years with injuries (plantar fasciitis, groin strain,  and toes curling) so am really looking forward to it.
  • Ray A2Ray A2 ✭✭✭
    TS-it was a half walk jog recovery thankfully.Would like to buy new shoes myself but the prices seem to have rocketed.The 235 watch is strange with the race predictor and recovery time,also the V02 max I can't understand.

    Graham-good luck with x-country hope it goes well.Graham I agree that speed work will bring your time down.

    Six miles yesterday at 9:15mm.
  • BirchBirch ✭✭✭
    excellent 5Ks from John, Ray, Graham, alehouse (nicely nabbed category debut victory)  :) 
     
    hope the XC went well, Graham, likewise the new parkrun, Columba
     
    Mick that's an impressive (by my standards, at any rate) gym session  . . .   
     
    TS - agree completely re the shoes (I had a similar email) !!!   
     
    frustrating week here - last Sat did just 4 miles in the morning, then jogged around Harewood House estate viewing the Nationals (very enjoyable) with no problems (probably covered a couple of miles), but then awoke in the night with pain in the knobbly small bone at the outer side of my left knee;  the pain radiated about halfway down the outer muscle on the leg.  I'd arranged a run Sunday morning, so still went, and managed 11 miles - no pain in the "bony bit", and muscle loosened off and caused no difficulty. However later in the day, and overnight, the pain/soreness returned as before. So, didn't run all week, massaged etc; by yesterday no symptoms at all, so ran to the Primary Schools XC finals (alehouse - Graves Park), and back - 10 miles with no discomfort, but later yesterday, and again overnight, the pain returned. .    bah !!  currently uncertain how to proceed . .    
     
    Dave
  • Mick6Mick6 ✭✭✭
    Graham,
    25 mins is excellent for a 70+, even if it is not what you think you are capable of. Yes, they are a few of us that seem to age a little slower, but most 70+ see a serious decline, most to the point they are no longer running.
    We have seen that happen to a few on this chat line.
    I came back from +29c to -17c and a couple of feet of snow, a bit of a shock.
    I did manage to run outside yesterday as it was only -9c.

    Dave,
    Not good to hear about pains around the knee, especially ones that come and go.
    I have wear in both my knees and I am told it is appropriate for someone my age. It started to show itself by the occasional pain that would come and go.
    It was a major problem for me a couple of years ago but thanks to a good physio I managed to strengthen all the tendons and ligaments around the knee and hips to that I significantly reduce the load on my knees. I now run more or less pain free. I am still very wary of down hills, up hill and stairs are fine.
    The gym exercises I described in my previous post include a lot of those exercises especially the rubber band stuff.

    TS,
    I am not sure about the garmin's recovery time prediction. I have very hairy wrists and about one in ten of my runs has the HRM screwing up. I did a slow easy 4 miler yesterday and the garmin thought I needed 3 days to get over it.

    I desperately need to get some speed work in before the season starts but the weather here is still awful which makes it close to impossible. We have a lot of ice covering the road and the pavement is impossible to run on.
    I lost a month due to the Shingles so I am now seriously slow but have no issues so am eager to get started.
    Mick

  • Graham LGraham L ✭✭✭
    Dave, the only thing that comes to mind regarding your knee pain is maybe to try reducing the distance of your runs and see what effect that has? I know 10 or 11 miles are not very long runs for you but trying a 3 or 4 miler instead may be worth a shot to see how the knee reacts.

    Mick, you're right of course and 25 minutes isn't a bad time at our age. Just feel I could go a little quicker and speed work might help towards that end. Of course we don't have to contend with your extreme cold and snow here. It must so frustrating when you're obviously raring to go.

    I enjoyed the last cross country of the season yesterday even if I was a little disappointed with the time. There was a very strong wind though and a steep and rough downhill bit isn't my cup of tea either.

    Anyway, the 4.1 miles was done in 38:23, an average pace of 9:18. Best not to reflect too much on my last race on the course four years ago when I did three laps rather than two at over a minute a mile quicker. 
  • Dave
    very mysterious - it may be a mis-tracking IT band which then twangs on the bony connection  and gives a sharp pain at the side of the knee.  I had it some years ago and was given some very painful massage by my physio  and the usual round of exercises strengthened the knee thereafter coupled with reduced running and trying to avoid heavily cambered roads etc which put more strain on the outside of the knee

    Graham
    well done on getting over 70% AG. Improvement over 5K is all about high end aerobic sessions (intervals!!) to improve function an dit takes 6-8 weeks to see improvement come through
    Xcountry always produces disappointing results ;)

    Ray
    I tend to buy end of year range models - they are often up to 50% off if you don't mind a garish colour.  As I have run in Adidas for over 12 years I know my fit - or thought I did until teh last pair arrived and foound they had an integrated tongue so it was like a sock fit.  Took a few runs to get used to it but now very snug
    Try SportsShoes Direct sale section 

    https://www.sportsshoes.com/sale/#utm_source=_March 2019 Email Campaign&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=eshot_More_Arrivals_More_Performance_More_Ways_To_Run_&utm_content=Sale

    Have you inputted all your personal data into your Garmin - age, weight, etc.  It then build sup a picture of your performance levels from several runs and keeps refining. Interestingly my VO2 max has moved from 40 to 44 even on the limited mileage I can manage just now but the data set is now much bigger.
    The race predictor times look quite accurate - but one has to do the training for the longer distances!  Mine currently says 4 hours for a marathon but I can't even run 5 miles at present

    Mick
    that was a nice welcome back - not!!!  A 46 degree temperature variation is pretty extreme - and you couldn't even show off your tanned legs :)
    Don't depress me even more about performance fall off when over 70,,,,,,,,,

    Well I did my 44 hours recovery and still felt carp so I abandoned by planned run on tarmac on Sunday and turned off into the paths through the pine woods and very gently ran 4 miles on soft ground and pine needles which was quite pleasant if uninvolving
    Recovery time dropped down to 14 hours for my next run and so on Monday I managed 3 miles at 9:40 pace and avHR of 126 (65% WHR) and a max of 144 so I didn't look exerted - unfortunately I ran out of energy, or at least my body couldn't convert any more reserves into energy, so enough was enough!

    hash tonight..........



  • Ray

    just had an email from Realbuzz.com - Mizuno Wave Ultima 10 at half price until 12 March!  don't know if you are into them as a shoe but it's a good deal

    hash last night was up and down the Knarsborough Gorge several times and I managed to lose the trail towards the end and ended up following an old one which hadn't been washed out.  Ended up doing 5.7 miles and was done in before being restored by Ossett Brewery's White Rat IPA :p

    Bit apprehensive about going out this morning but managed a steady 3 miles at 10m/m pace without too much damage - I must refuel with White Rat more often!
  • Ray A2Ray A2 ✭✭✭
    TS-thanks for the info on shoes I will take a look.My Garmin gives me a V02 max of 51which seems high.My personal data etc is correct so not sure what's going on.Sounds like a hard run with the word gorge in tow,intresting name for a beer not had that one.Nice recovery run banked as well.

    Tuesdays track session was a pyramid 400/800/1200/1600/1200/800/400/ with a 200m jog recovery.Reps were 7:07pace/7:07pace/7:17pace/7:17pace/7:10pace/7:05pace/7:13pace.
  • Ray
    no more shoe emails today!

    It is sessions like that which will push up your VO2 max :) - Very good going

    Ther is an oddity in Garmin's data on VO2 max figures if you look at their information 
    https://www8.garmin.com/manuals/webhelp/forerunner230/EN-US/GUID-3E971364-A756-4057-B22D-C41250B2A82B.html

    Mine has edged up to 45 now, propbaly after the gorge running on Tuesday - yes it was a lot of steep up and down - and is positioned right on the borderline between Excellent & Superior.
    However when one looks at the detail charts (there is a link on the above page) the VO" max for 70+ is defined as Excellent 36.7 and Superior as 42.1 - i want my Superior rating please!!!
    In the wording it describes VO2 max figures as "estimates by age and gender" so I suspect the ratings are firstly governed by these estimates and the actual figure is calculated by performance over many runs and types of runs.
    Your intervals give you a big boost to Vo2 max hence your actual rated figure.

    Only had time for the briefest excursions this morning as I had to take Mrs TS to hospital for an appointment so only 2 miles done in squally, gusty, rainy conditions - lovely!!

  • Mick6Mick6 ✭✭✭
    TS,
    You may find this paper interesting as it describe the method used by Garmin devices in some detail. 
    They use an algorithm developed by FirstBeat.
    It is vulnerable to spurious heart rate readings that are maintained such as those you can see on the 235 otherwise it seems close, at least based on predicted race times.

    https://assets.firstbeat.com/firstbeat/uploads/2017/06/white_paper_VO2max_30.6.2017.pdf


    Mine sits between 40 and 45 and has done so since I started wearing the 235.

    Ray,
    Strong interval session, you must be pleased with that.

    This winter seems to be one of the worst  I have experienced. I got up to -20c this morning, luckily it is my gym day.
    This my standard drill, legs felt great but upper body struggled especially on the pull ups.
    Mick
  • ColumbaColumba ✭✭✭
    Graham, 70% age grading, has to be good.
    Birch - you don't think of consulting a physio?
    I have knee problems, and aim to do exercises to strengthen the muscles etc which support the knee. Also I run with a knee support (heavy black with lots of velcro) on my left knee. Like Mick I'm wary of downhills, in fact if it's a steep downhill I slow right down.
    Enjoyed the inaugural parkrun, and intend to do it again this Saturday. It's three laps (so slow people like me get lapped by the fast ones), along beside the river Wye, very pretty. I managed to beat the 40 minutes (yes, I'm that slow) and came first in age group. First out of one.
    Then spent several hours handing out medals to the Round-the-Lakes 30km-ers. The early ones came in looking still quite fresh; later we got the agonised-expressions, "never-again"-ers. One lady came in limping badly and collapsed once over the finish line; a St. John's Ambulance person attended to her, and she was ok and able to get up and limp away, wrapped in a space blanket, after a few minutes. 
  • Mick

    many thanks for the link.  I was concerned at first when I read it when they stated that HR was based upon age averages but then later it describes how when actual HR values are introduced into the Garmin they use them as the basis for calculation so that was good.
    you had a VO2 max test done on a treddie - did the results correlate to your  garmin results?

    Brrrrr to those temperatures - our early spring has relapsed a bit and it was 0 C this morning early on - only -20 degrees to go!!!

    Columba
    well done a first place AG - you don't have to tell anyone that there was no one else ;)
    Even more well dones for standing there for several hours handing out medals - volunteers to assist in races are worth their weight in gold.  You would very clearly see the difference between trained athletes and those who are not and who thought it would be a "good idea" to run 30K without adequate preparation!!

    I had to get a report out this morning so was a little later going out and ran 4 miles in 37:53 (9:28m/m) with avHR of 136 and a max of 145.
    Nothing remarkable but it is the fastest I have run for over 2 months and I felt ok doing it. maybe the later time gave my meds a chance to be more fully absorbed but I have run before after a similar interval and not noticed any difference so it was probably just a good day

    9:49  125  131
    9:06  134  137
    9:18  140  143
    9:40  145  145

    The last mile is remarkable as both the avHR and maxHR are the same - never seen that before

    My VO2 max has now edged up another notch and now shows as 47.........
  • Graham LGraham L ✭✭✭
    Ray, another impressive track session. Your pace was remarkably consistent over the different distances.  Did you run the 400s at an easier pace or really push hard on the 1600?
     
    Mick, you must be fed up with your winter. The last thing you need is an abnormally bad one!

    TS, pleased to hear your last run was so successful. Going to SJP tomorrow hoping to see five home wins in a row. Could we?

    Columba, your park run course seems very nice. I don't normally like laps but one advantage is that slower runners don't find themselves a bit isolated, even if others are overtaking at greater speeds.

    My plan tomorrow is to do the Gateshead parkrun. A bit hilly but not as bad as Gibside. 
  • Mick6Mick6 ✭✭✭
    TS,
    I had the V02 test done a few years back and it was 51 compare to my current Garmin numbers in the 40 - 45 range. I have deteriorated over the intervening years so I would think the Garmin is reasonably accurate. 

    Graham,
    good luck with the parkrun, any prediction?

    Another treadmill run for me but tomorrow is supposed to be warm, -1c, so we should be outside.

    Mick
  • Graham LGraham L ✭✭✭
    Mick, not really. I'm trying, not too successfully it has to be said, not to think about times too much at the expense of enjoying the run. But around 25 would be good! Enjoy your outside run.
  • Ray A2Ray A2 ✭✭✭
    Graham,hope the Parkrun went well.Graham the session was supposed to be at 45min 10k pace which is to quick for me.Basically I was at my limit as I could not run a 10k in that time anymore.

    Mick,hope your weather goes up a few degrees.The Garmin race predictor for me is not accurate,as a example it says I could run a 10k in 42:19/ HM in 1:33:41 Marathon in 3:15:07 I would take those times gladly.Maybe whatTS says about the track workouts gives it a false reading so to speak.


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