Shades Marathon Training

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  • Cal JonesCal Jones ✭✭✭
    Shades, yeah, apparently low progesterone levels stop you getting into a really deep sleep, which means you wake more often. Le sigh.

    10 miles this morning. Quite chilly. Niggles are there but I'm still running. Averaged 10:15 so I seem to have some bounce back, thanks to the lack of a long run on Sunday.
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Big G - that's good progress with the decorating.

    Great bargain on the Travelodge.   I've heard of Saturn Running, not heard anything detrimental about their events.   I have previously looked at their events but the 'themed' puts me off, as do Rik's events when they're based on films etc, makes me think it's a bit tacky.  But Saturn's are all trail anyway and although I expect it's 'easy' trail I wouldn't drive all that way for 3 mile loops of a trail course.  But I applaud them for the midweek races at £20, nice not to be ripped off and a great chance for you to rebalance your marathon stats so you're back on target.   I know RD's have variable expenses, i.e. I expect Running Miles have to pay quite a lot to use Dorney Lake, but there are a lot of RD's that are really ripping off runners and just raking in the cash.  I can't see how Enigma can justify £11 more, you don't get a shirt, not sure if you get a goody bag?
    I've entered Taunton marathon, which is a UKA road marathon, well marshalled, well organised, medal, shirt, price £25.

    Ian - let's hope you don't need those back up marathons, but good to have a plan B.   I haven't done MK but believe it's a fast course, has been hot a few times though.   Belfast is a great marathon, certainly worth doing at some time.

    Cal - be prepared for the interrupted sleep to continue, just a normal part of getting older, for men too.  :( 


  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Shades-My plan Z is IOM which is on my birthday and also the last day of GFA qualification.Out of the 3 only Belfast is now a real option as the others have a closing date before Manchester and I don't want to enter incase I don't need it as I'd rather use all that time for DD training.From here Belfast is probably just as easy to get to as the others anyway.
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Ian - I don't know if Belfast have changed the course, there was talk of making it a bit flatter since I did it last.  

    Yes, Belfast very easy for travel, George Best airport is only a couple of miles from city centre so very convenient as quick to get to airport after race for flight home.  
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Shades-Yes they have changed the route this year,also the first year it is on a Sunday.I've looked at the route map on the site and tried to plot it,not got it accurate as I've only got to 25 miles but it comes out about 1000ft,with 1 decent up hill stretch,which has about 350ft in from 14-17,so other than that it would be pretty flat.I also have family over there I could stay with the night before not too far from the new start area.
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Ian - the old route had a long drag up to about halfway, but immediately after was a long downhill, the incline very comfortable for running and making up quite a significant amount of time lost on the uphill.  The last time I ran that part of the course I was accompanied by 2 armoured police vehicles which would have made a great photo. I hope the new course is as interesting as the old one, I do plan to go and run it again sometime.
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Shades-that looks like the hill I was talking about but it's little later now,looking at the 2 routes it's mainly the first few miles that are different then must take shorter routes in different areas but looks similar.
    Thinking about London,what are peoples thoughts on GFA times? They say it's a time,then reduce the time if 3000 of each sex beat it.Last year it looks like all got in but I'm thinking that's because the change wasn't announced till quite late,so people may not have had time to go for the faster times but have now had a year to get ready.So will 2 mins be enough under?if so I need to aim for 3:08 or faster.
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Ian - I think 2 minutes is an adequate cushion for your GFA time.

    I've seen several runners say that they didn't get their GFA time due to the heat at London last year but I think a lot of that was just runners using the weather as a convenient excuse.  I haven't seen those same runners attempting a GFA time last autumn.

    What would have had an effect on the number of GFA entries is the newer rule that a GFA entry cannot be deferred.  Runners used to obtain a GFA time and then after submitting their entry they would deliberately defer intending to run the following year even though technically their GFA time had expired.  Also now GFA times need to be obtained when a runner is in the age group that they are claiming that GFA time.

    Will be interesting to see how the GFA entries are for next year. 
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Ian, Belfast is on my list.  Good to have a backup but I really hope you reach your goal at Manchester.  

    Cal, good news you've got a bit of bounce back.

    Shades, yeah, I'm also not a fan of the themed nature of those Saturn events, but to get me back on track with the numbers it seemed a good option.  Generally speaking, I'm not too bothered by medals, and as they're affordable events I thought I'd give it a try even if the medal is a bit poor.  Enigma don't have a goodie bag or anything like that - just a medal, and sometimes they're crap/cheap medals.  I do have "favourite" medals, but generally I don't do the events for the medals if that makes sense?  I think the only event I've ever entered having been influenced by the medal is that Darwin one I did, as I did like that one.  Also, I'm looking forward to the Berlin medal as I think it'll have Kipchoge on it, but that's not the reason I entered that event.

    One thing with Enigma events is that I think they have quite a small field possibly imposed by the council?  Whereas some of these other events have larger fields and often don't even sell out, but have bigger numbers in attendance than Enigma.  So I suppose he charges more due to that, as there's more competition for fewer places - he quite often seems to sell out.  Even so, £11 extra is a lot.  The Running Miles guys at Dorney Lake probably pay a bit for access to that road.   Denzil at How Hard Can It Be provides better medals and also a better aid station, with automatic lap counting, and the facilities offer showers and free parking.  Much better than Enigma.  And for me, MK is not an easy drive!  All this adds up to me definitely not doing any Enigma ones this year :)  
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Shades, just re-reading your previous post, it's funny as Tom Williams (he's the parkrun guy and also MarathonTalk host) is adamant that London last year was just a bit warm.  It would have been too hot for me in terms of a PB etc, but he basically says people were using it as an excuse.

    Fourth day today of decorating.  I know when I was working I basically just sat around all day in an office, but I'm at the start of the 4th day and I'm knackered!  Decided I'm going to get someone in to sort the internal doors.  I want them all glossed but they need to be taken off, sanded down, and I want a decent finish.  I've done it before in a flat and to be honest I found it quite hard to get the finish I was looking for, so I'll get someone in.  I know a guy who is reasonably priced so hoping he can do it before we move in.
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Big G-Good luck with the decorating,we're getting carpets fitted today so yesterday was getting rid of the old ones,going tip etc so waiting for them now.
    I agree with people making excuses for not getting GFA last year because of the weather,seen a while back someone saying "just my luck I got the first 30° london" when I googled it I think the hottest in the day was 23 maybe,so hot enough but no hotter than gran canaria was.Wity the people around it may have seemed hotter but the build up gave people that excuse as everyone was saying it.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Ian, yeah, I'm getting a carpet fitter around tomorrow to measure up and then get the carpets done.  I only need the stairs, landing and 3rd bedroom done, so I'll wait until we're moved in so that that the removal men can come in and not worry about messing up the carpet.

    Also had an electrician around yesterday.  There are a few small things that need doing.  Strangely, there is a light in the bedroom....but no switch.  There is no switch anywhere that turns it on, and yes we've checked the bulb works.  Also in the main bedroom there are 12  (TWELVE!) plug sockets but they're all off extension cables; all that is coming out and being replaced with proper sockets.  There is no electric in the garage, but he wanted £500 for that so it can wait!  The house is up on a bank, and set back a long way from the road, but the garage is down at road level so it's a lot of work to get electric in there.  Fortunately the fuse board itself is fine (I did check this before we bought the place).
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2019
    Big G - I like a good medal, but for me it's a bonus if the medal is really good, it doesn't influence whether I run that race or not.   If you ever get round to doing a race in Ireland then the guys that organise the Clonakilty in early December always have amazing medals for their events.

    I'm sure all races are limited by their race permit on the number of entrants allowed and certainly for Foxy the venue owners (council?) may have stipulated a strict limit so that runners don't cause any inconvenience to other users of the area, which makes good sense.   Some race organisers put a lot of effort into facilities/goodies for the runners, others are not that bothered.  Phil Hampton the originator of DD really thought of everything that an ultra runner could possibly need and the Trotters have maintained that level.    It's that sort of race organisation which makes a race so very special that runners return year on year.

    Re London last year, I think the official temperature was a high of 22 degrees, I've seen other exaggerations about what the actual temperature was.   But running your first race of the year in warm weather can come as a shock to the body, but the temperature had been forecast and on the day the humidity was low and good for running.  This calculator does temperature variance and you can see that yes, warmer weather does make a difference but not as much as some like to make out.

    http://runworks.com/calculator.html

    The temperature at London was the same for Berlin, and Berlin had much higher humidity and I didn't see a single complaint about the weather and lots of PB's

    Decorating is exhausting, we're not used to manual labour, your marathon on Sunday will be a pleasant relief.   Great you can get the doors done elsewhere.  Luckily I don't have painted doors and I'm not fond of gloss paint so any woodwork I do in satin which is so much easier to apply.

    Ian - one year when we did Lochaber marathon, used to be a good fast marathon and often used for GFA attempts, the temperature was 14 degrees, perfect still sunny day.   Loads of runners complained saying it was too hot and their planned marathon times were ruined by the warm weather, it was early spring and particularly for the Scots felt 'too hot'.


    Circuits was good, really enjoying this class as I think it challenges me.  We had the bench for step ups and I deliberately did them to see if it niggles my calf muscles again.   The other good thing about circuits is that I get 2 breakfasts on a Wednesday, one before and one after. ;)


  • 1SteveMac1SteveMac ✭✭✭
    Shades - Cold is fine now.
    Big G - Good on the Trotter for sticking to his guns, most people focus on speed without the endurance. Like I've said before you don't put the icing on until you have baked the cake!
    Good running everyone! Been busy so not been on that often!

    Last week I went to Surrey Human Performance Institute for a Vo2 Max and LT test. Both went well, got my results e-mailed back to me before I had drove home!! LT was interesting as pace was slower than expected but HR was higher. But they have given me HR zones to train in, which I've now set in my Garmin.
    Started HM training for Edinburgh this week, so 8 miles yesterday and 6 miles with strides today.
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Shades-That calculator is interesting,just used it to compare my GC time and potential manchester run,it drops 2 mins going from 20° to 16° then another 90 secs due to the difference in hills,gives me a suggested time of 3:07.
    Still not right but needed to run so went for 4 last night and 5 this morning, today's felt tough but nice to be out.
  • Cal JonesCal Jones ✭✭✭
    Good calculator, Shades. I'm not so sure about its distance conversion, though - based on my Hampton Court time it reckons I can run a 3:55 marathon. Well, one day, perhaps, but certainly not now.

    Interesting, Steve.

    No running today - risked pilates and managed not to avoid hurting my knee, then went for a walk. My more exciting news is that I've bitten the bullet and made an appointment with a biomechanics specialist to try and sort out my issues. It's expensive, but I really do want to get to the root of what is causing my issues. She was recommended to me by a lady at my yoga studio who had tried everything and said that was the only thing that helped. This is her site: http://www.helen-hall.co.uk/
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    edited March 2019
    That sounds good Steve.  Will be interesting to see how you get on with the HR zones.

    Cal, fingers crossed the specialist will help get to the bottom of your niggles.

    We had a good/full day on the house today - it's really coming on now.  The decorator is coign around tomorrow (Thursday) to quote for the doors, so if it's reasonable I'll book him in to get it done.

    I was tired but I went over to the club's speed session tonight.  It's not a measured route, but it was 12x approx 400m reps, with 90-secs recovery.  It was a good session and I was consistent over the reps, which is what I was looking for.  I know Saturday's marathon was slow for me, but I was pleased that the old legs felt okay this evening.

    Strava is showing the rep as 0.26miles and my reps were 1:48, 1:44, 1:42, 1:43, 1:39, 1:39, 1:39, 1:38, 1:36, 1:35, 1:35, 1:33  - so I actually got quicker as I went along which is nice!
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Steve - very interesting re your test results.  Previously were you using your best calculations and feel/effort for LT and HR?

    Ian - it's a very useful calculator, especially for me when I try to work out it I can make the DD cut off.
    Good that you're back running but take it easy you're vulnerable to picking up another virus.

    Cal - re the calculator, that's correct.  Twice half marathon time + 7 minutes is optimum marathon time.  However, most runners (not elite) don't manage that as they don't train enough, usually a combination of too low mileage and training too fast.  So for them 10 to 20 minutes is what they can expect.

    I think that's a really good decision to see a specialist.  You do seem plagued with niggles/injuries that  seem to recur.

    Big G - glad that the house is coming together quickly now, you sound much more optimistic than you did when you had to go to B & Q for the paint ;) 

    That was a good training session, especially after a day of manual labour.

    Lovely 6 mile run for me this morning, as it was starting to get light I could do the return part of my run on the back road to the chorus of the birds singing :) 
    Both my calfs are slightly sore this morning, more my left.  So definitely the step ups that cause it, it's just in one particular spot on my calf, quite high up, so it must be a little muscle that I don't use so much in running.  

  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Shades, yes, much more optimistic now.  If we can get a good day in today, I think I'll need one more next week to have everything except the kitchen at least painted, so we can move in on 16th March.  If I have time, I'll try and do at least the ceiling and walls in the kitchen but I won't have time to do the cabinets.  One issue I have is that the light isn't good enough from about 5pm - I nearly bought some decent lighting that tradespeople use for decorating but decided against it as it really won't get used that often and it's quite expensive.  I've tried a couple of sources to borrow some lighting but haven't been able to get my hands on any.  My own house isn't packed up fully yet so I need a day or two in there I think, which I'll need to do next week.

    Probably won't run today, but I'll see how the days goes.
  • Cal JonesCal Jones ✭✭✭
    Nice reps, Big G, you really seem to recover well, considering all the house work as well!
    Shades - Chester was 2 x HM plus about 16 minutes and that was off the back of more training miles than I'd ever run in a cycle. What sort of mileage would you consider enough? 100 mile weeks? (Because that's never going to happen! :D)
    I did a 6 miler too. The best thing I can say was that I got it done. Legs felt tired and niggles felt niggly. I will take a full rest tomorrow.
  • 1SteveMac1SteveMac ✭✭✭
    Shades - Previously I was using HM pace, so trying to run 6:20-6:30 ish, which would work out to about 155 bpm. Testing showed 6:40 pace, but 160 bpm. Although granted my training is using an optical HR while the testing was chest strap, so more accurate.
    Actually I wasn't too far off with training, I always tried to run around 134-144 bpm for long runs, testing showed 127-148 bpm for easy runs. I guess pace/HR would differ in races compared to training due to fueling, as races I'd eat 2-3 hours before, but training I won't have eaten since the night before.
    Cal - I might be getting some Vaporfly's!!

    First LT session today, 15 mins (average 6:30) then 4 mins recovery then 12 mins (average 6:36). HR was between 155-159 on the LT sections, first part felt fine, second part was working hard.
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2019
    Big G - lack of light is really annoying especially once you're on the 2nd coat.   The cabinets can wait and you can do them in the warmer weather.

    Cal - it can take years of specific training to reach that level.  They say that 10 years of full on training to reach a runner's ultimate potential.   I would say at least 70 mpw up to say 85 if not higher and that would be over a period of time too, but it's just not mileage, it's being injury and illness free etc.   You are still early in your marathon career and producing good PB's so you are getting better and better, it's not an overnight thing or one or even two marathons, so you are making good progress, hopefully you can get rid of those persistent niggles so you can enjoy your running more.   

    The closest I've ever been is x2 + 9 mins and that was in my purple patch season of 2010 and I was carrying an injury all season which I managed, I was working full time and part time but still managed some good high mileage weeks training including one week of 100+ miles when I had a week's holiday.  My last PB I was comfortably on for  x2 + 7 mins but it was a cold day and there had been a frost and it was too much for my hamstring origin injury so at 21 miles once I knew I was on for a PB I pulled back on the pace to protect my injury as I had Dublin the following week.   In hindsight, i.e. not going to do another marathon PB,  I should have ignored my injury and continued at race pace.

    The Big Half is on BBC RB on Sunday, I don't remember it being on telly last year, in case you want to record it and watch it when you get home.  Is Mo Farah running? 

    Steve - well your training up to now has been pretty close to the stats.   Your HR shouldn't be affected by eating a couple of hours before a race, but what will affect it is adrenaline, even if you're calm on race day there's that little frisson of excitement that will be reflected in your heartrate.   That's why we can achieve heartrates and speeds in a race but can't replicate it in training.

    Lovely Pilates class, my quads are trashed though :'(
  • Cal JonesCal Jones ✭✭✭
    Yes he is! Hopefully I'll see him again although I'm in an earlier wave than last year.
    Skipped Pilates - I wanted to do it as I like the teacher, but I don't want to risk my knee. He does a lot of squat and lunge-based moves.
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Big G-Sounds like you're making really good progress,remember all that from moving years ago.
    Steve-If you buy off nike.com,if you sign up they send you 25% off on your birthday but you have to have had the app for a month,so sign up now,say your birthday is may and you will get a voucher then.
    Cal/Shades-I'm currently HMx2+17 mins but hopefully get that under 15 soon.
    I think I'm going to go with a short taper due to this illness,I've done marathons 2 weeks apart and felt fine so will go for a 10 day and should recover in time.
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2019
    Cal - I guess televising the Big Half is the start of the build up for Mo taking on Kipchoge at London.
    Hope the knee is feeling a bit better today.

    Ian - you're fine with a shorter taper.  You did a good marathon PB last year only 2 weeks after a previous PB.
    You'll get closer to that x2 + 7, previously your cramps have affected you in the latter stages of a marathon so that's extra time you've lost too.


    Cold and frosty again, getting fed up of the cold but it was dry so OK for running.   Nice and light now and stopped on the way back to observe the progress on the construction of our Aldi, steel framework going up, so won't be too long now. :) 
    My Guides have arrived in store, will collect today :)
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Thanks Cal - yeah I do recover quite well on occasion.  I was still hobbling about a few days after Loch Ness though, and not through injury! My main problem I think is that I'm so inconsistent with my marathon times.

    Trotters are introducing a Thursday evening hill session in the run up to DD.  It's basically hill reps up one of the steepest hills in Newton Abbot, and the number of reps will be increasing over the weeks.  The first one was yesterday which I couldn't get to, but I'll try and go next week if I can.  I nearly always avoid the hill reps session on Wednesday, but at the same time I do feel I'm relatively weak on hills so if I can get along to a couple of session I suppose it may help.

    I've done a 4 miler this morning, and it was nice to get out after a full day yesterday.  I've a busy weekend as it's the WAY AGM in Southampton so I'm driving up late morning, and it's a meal out tonight with a group of WAY friends.  I'm hoping to do the local parkrun (about 1.5 miles from my hotel) in the morning, and then it's the AGM later tomorrow morning, a few activities and stuff going on in the afternoon, and then a meal in the evening.  I'm staying at a Premier Inn nearby as the AGM hotel is quite posh/expensive, but I don't expect I'll stay really late Saturday night, as then it's up early to drive to Dorney Lake for the marathon on the Sunday....  With all this, the car is quite full of stuff as I need a suit for the Saturday evening, all my running stuff (i.e., different kit, plus a bag of food) etc.  I'm only going away for 2 nights but it looks like I'm going away for a week....
  • 1SteveMac1SteveMac ✭✭✭
    edited March 2019
    Ian - Thanks for the tip about Nike.com 25% off!! I think you'll be fine off a short taper.
    Regarding the marathon conversions, think my best is HM*2 +21 mins!! So definately room for improvement there.
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Big G - you do have a busy weekend planned.   

    I guess your Trotter hill reps are going to be up Powderham Road :D   It's a great hill for training as it zigzags up to the top.  But remember it's hills when you're doing medium/long runs that will benefit you most for DD so maybe you'd better do both!   You do quite a few hilly runs now anyway.

    Nice morning here, bit breezy in places.  Had a lovely run in my new guide 10's, very pleased with them.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    I went along to Southampton parkrun today, which was by far the biggest one I’ve done with 1054 finishers. I wasn’t racing it but even so I started in the wrong place as it was too busy but finished in 203rd in 23:29. I did enjoy it but it was too busy really on some quite narrow paths. Approx 1.5 miles there and back again for around 6 miles for the day. 

    I did get to the AGM a bit late, but only missed the ‘ice breaker’...which isn’t a bad thing as far as I’m concerned.  It could be said that I timed it perfectly ;)
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