Shades Marathon Training

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  • Cal JonesCal Jones ✭✭✭
    Shades - tomorrow!
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Big G - if you could just nudge the JST to the week before that would do it. Xmas wrapping paper is readily available from August 😆

    Cal - exciting, good luck for tomorrow.

    Ian - Steve is right. A 38:23 equates to a half time of 1:24:54 which in turn equates to a 2:57 marathon.  No pressure! 😕
    I did that on Runworks calculator.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Shades, we did consider that but a) there’s Drogo 10 that weekend which is a CC race (provisional date) and b) a group of Trotters are doing Brecon marathon again that weekend, a couple of who help out regularly on the JST.  Also, c) we’ve already booked the room/catering for the party afterwards as we needed to get in early as it’s busy with bookings that time of year. 

    I can’t really move it this year sadly, but I’ll hopefully avoid Florence next year, presuming I’m RD again. :)
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Shades/Steve-That might be a target to aim for in Frankfurt if I can get a few solid months if training in.
    Those numbers seem scary fast,but then I remember 45 min 10k seemed way beyond me and all the other numbers I've passed seemed crazy at the time.
    Easy 8 after work today,legs felt fine which was nice after a fast race.
  • KhanivoreKhanivore ✭✭✭
    Hi all - training has been a bit stop and start but I decided to have a go at a long run last week and managed 17 miles at a nice slow pace that Shades would approve of :) Today I had another go and managed 19.5 miles! :) Gives me confidence that I will get Paris done, don't care about the time. 


  • KhanivoreKhanivore ✭✭✭
    I posted this elsewhere on the forum but then realised i should have asked in here!

    I've not been using gels on ANY of my training runs! Now, with Paris marathon coming up, I'm in a panic about it. I stopped at a shop halfway through my run today and bought a couple of High 5 gels. The one with caffeine really gave me wings :) I thought they tasted great but there's a problem. 

    The packets say you take these every 20 mins. For me, that means taking about 12-13 gels! Seems a bit excessive! What do you guys recommend? 
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Big G - well if you decide to go to Valencia without OH you don't have to share a room.   The extra cost will  probably be less than you would have paid out for beer a couple of years ago on a similar trip.   

    I never share a room when I go on a trip, with clubs/groups or with friends.  My marathons are important to me and I want to enjoy the trip as much as possible.   I have twice shared on marathon trips (20 years ago) and I'd never do it again.  I did share for NY as single room supplement is very expensive but if I went again I'd pay the extra, no reflection on the friend I was sharing with but I'd enjoy the trip a lot more without her.

    Khanivore - that's great news to hear your training is going well, especially those long runs.  I'm impressed with your pacing too!

    Re the gels, ignore the every 20 minutes + the bit about taking them before the race...that advice comes from those trying to sell you the gels.    You'll be running faster than training pace so you will need more than a couple but don't overdo it as that can make you feel a bit sick.   I would advise first one at one hour's running and then one every 40 - 60 minutes thereafter, they probably have about 30g of carbs and you would want to take a minimum of 30g per hour, advised amount of carbs is 30-60g per hour but for many they wouldn't be able to cope with 60g.   Save the caffeine gels for the latter part of the race, when the caffeine will give you that mental boost.

    I'll let others say how many gels they use so you can make an informed decision

    I'll put your marathon on our list but you must remember to come back and tell us how you got on.


    6 miles this morning in fairly tough conditions, we're forecast the same level of gale force winds as we had on Sunday, but it's not that bad yet.  But very windy in places and rain too.  
  • Cal JonesCal Jones ✭✭✭
    Khani, I usually have 4 gels during a marathon, and I'm an over 4 hour runner. I take them at mile 6 and then every 5 miles thereafter. Any more than that and I'd end up throwing up in my mouth.
    Well done on your long runs - you'll be fine for Paris.

    Shades - yep, looks like it'll be windy all week. This should be my highest mileage week too (although I think I'll be content if I just hit 50 again).

    Ian, we do progress, don't we? While I'm nowhere near your speed, I'm now running marathons at a faster pace than my first five or so half marathons, and half marathons at faster than my old 10K pace.

    I've been pretty sore since Sunday (more so than after the previous two) and wasn't liking the sound of the wind outdoors but then I kicked myself up the arse and got out for an 8. Mostly recovery pace, though my pace did creep up towards the end. The wind wasn't so bad - not as bad as Sunday, anyway. My left hammy was tight before the run but feels better now, so the run did its job. Achilles still grumbling, but that's expected. Oh and I've found I can squat down again without the stabby pain in my knee so I'm happy about that. I was worried that I'd torn my meniscus or something.
  • 1SteveMac1SteveMac ✭✭✭
    Cal / Ian - Yes it's great to see progress, especially like you say Cal when you maintain that pace over such a longer distance.
    Ian - Yeah it is scary, I'm still not sure I can go sub 3, but I know my HM time suggests I can, so that is the main aim for next year.
    Shades - Interesting that my 10k time is 13 seconds slower than Ian's but my HM time is 30 seconds faster than that predictor!! Not sure if that means I'm mopre suited to the HM distance or if there is more to come at 10k??
    Anyway, easy 8 miles today to kick off the week. Not bothered with times (min/miles) on these runs, just keeping HR low to get that aerobic benefit. Reading up on HADD training again!
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Khani, good to hear your training is going well.  I've no advice on gels but please let us know how you get on with your event!

    Steve/Ian/Cal - I quite like looking back at the progression sometimes, and although I've nowhere near improved as much as Ian has, I am still pleased with how I've progressed.  My first ever Half was 1:55 and now I comfortably do that (x2) at a marathon, whereas I remember getting to the end of my Half and thinking "How on earth does anyone, ever do a marathon?!".  With my 3:20 marathon that's obviously 2x1:40 Halfs back-to-back, which when I did that 1:55 Half I never would have thought was possible.  But Ian's progression is fantastic - it's really, really great to see!

    I didn't do a whole lot on the house yesterday, apart from some cutting in in the final bedroom, and also repairing some woodwork in the kitchen, in order to allow my fridge/freezer to fit in (it was slightly to wide for the gap, but it will fit now).  It's all systems go again today though as I have the chap around to do the glossing so we're getting on with other stuff to try and stay out of his way!  If he can get it done before we move in, that will be fantastic.  The previous owners had a lot of grey and black gloss, which we don't want, so it'll be some work to cover over it, but he's hoping it'll all be done before we move.

    I don't expect I'll run today....I feel really tired so I think a rest day will be fine for me.
  • Cal JonesCal Jones ✭✭✭
    Steve, I think we're all skewed towards different distances. I'm not so good on the 5Ks, really. But yeah, Big G, my first half was 2:18 and I felt like I was dying! I remember doing my second (4 years later) and hitting a 10 min/mi mile and telling myself to calm down because I was going too fast. :D
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Khanivore - one final thought on your marathon fuelling.   Paris marathon often turns out to be a warm day and you might want to consider what electrolytes you'll take on board, i.e. sports drinks/salt tablets.   Most gels don't have electrolytes so check that out when you buy them.   I don't use gels, just have sweets and take electrolytes in either drops that I add to water or salt tablets.

    Cal - that's good news on the knee, one less thing to worry about.   Good luck with your appointment today :) 

    Big G - although you don't take gels you must have a fuelling plan that you sort of follow in a marathon?   Do you use sweets?

    Black and grey gloss, I'm not surprised you called in a decorator for that job.

    Steve - yes, some runners are more suited to the longer endurance events than others, plus of course the more specific training that can be done for various distances.

    The Hadd stuff is a good long read, interesting though.


    Tough Pilates class, my quads are trashed, I worked them almost to a point I couldn't do anymore.   
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    edited March 2019
    Shades, when I’m racing a ‘proper’ road marathon I take a large bar of Kendal mint cake, and nibble on that. Sometimes I eat the whole thing, and other times I hardly eat any. Also, at these bigger events I take the drinks they have, but usually it’s just a mouthful and I throw the rest (I find them too sweet generally), but I take water at each station, often walking through the station to make sure I get what I need. At the smaller/lapped events that I’m not ‘racing’, I just eat whatever they have at the station. On the weekend they had fudge and flapjack, which was very nice, and orange squash or coke, so I had that each lap.

    In terms of electrolytes I use the SiS tabs. What I do before any marathon is have 750ml water with a tablet when I’ve woken up, and then another 750ml water with a tablet as I’m traveling to the race. I do take a spare tablet with me on the bigger events but I’ve never used one. 
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Big G - that's interesting re your race fuelling, thanks for that.   

    You'll like Windermere marathon they have Kendal mint cake at the drink stations, they always used to anyway :)  
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Shades, I’ve totally changed my approach with it all since I first started running seriously. I remember I did Dartmoor Vale Half which was my first race as a Trotter. I took 4 SiS gels with me but I only had about half of one as I just felt sick!  Of course I now know it’s not needed at all for a half. 

    Since then, I have experimented a bit with gels but I can never really stomach them, especially if I’m properly racing. I think I could probably stomach them on a long, slow run but I find them worse when I’m racing for some reason. Not really sure why that is actually....maybe it’s because I’m breathing heavier so can’t get it down as easily, and because of the increased exertion it upsets my stomach? Even at Loch Ness they had some chewey gel stuff (I can’t remember the brand off hand, but it’s a big brand) and I just couldn’t get it down....I briefly felt sick.  

    The Kendal mint cake is a good option as it almost melts in the mouth and it has loads of carbs. 

  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Big G - I can't take gels either, it's the consistency of them makes me want to retch.   If I get free gels in a goody bag I usually give them away but sometimes I've accidentally brought them home.  I have then used them in training but I have to stop for 5 minutes take the gel carefully, trying not to think about them, then have a drink before I can run on again.   But I manage well enough in races with sweets and sometimes dates.

    I did take a gel at Frankfurt and really liked them, they are quite small only 17g of carb and a totally different consistency to usual gels, like a soft sweet texture with a pleasant lemon flavour.   I searched high and low on the internet for them but could only find them at ridiculous prices so gave up that idea.

    I'm not sure why folk waste money on the gels that are just sugar, there is nothing in them that isn't in sweets.

    I'm not keen on the mint cake, I had some in a goody bag and it sat in my cupboard for a couple of years. 
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Big G-I have improved a ton,but you need to remember I literally done no exercise  for over 20 years so started from a very low base,it does make me wonder watch could have done if I'd starred earlier though.
    In terms of nutrition,I've started starting with sis beta fuel,it's basically a carb rich sports drink and added to water its nice and that sees me until about 90mins,then I have 1 gel about 2.5hrs in and that seems me through,started it at hull and it's worked well,used to use 4 gels but this is nicer,it does mean carrying a drink but I've gotten used to it now.I never use anything apart from water for training.
  • Cal JonesCal Jones ✭✭✭
    Ian, the way I look at it is, if I'd started when I was young, I'd now be getting slower. As it is, I'm still getting quicker and I enjoy that very much!

    So the session was fascinating. Helen Hall is the only person in this country who does what she does, and was an interesting person (she's a runner and triathlete herself). She had me stand, walk and run, scanned me, stuck dots on me and came up with all these computer models to show me what I was doing. Essentially, my issues aren't due to a lack of strength or even sitting down a lot, but rather that certain innate human reflexes have turned themselves off and my bodyparts aren't talking to each other so there is a lot of compensation going on. One of the main things is something called the amphibian reflex, which I still have on my right, but not on my left hand side, so my right leg is doing a massive amount more work than the left (which is why my achilles and hip are pissy - there's a hell of a lot more weight going through the right foot). That's the first thing I have to retrain, and once I've got that more balanced, I'll go back to tackle some of the other issues. If I get it all sorted, it should not only make me less injury prone but also faster.
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Ian - if you'd started running at a young age chances are that you'd now have a long history of injuries that would be affecting your current running.  But at a young age you'd probably achieve faster times at the shorter distances but would be little difference at longer stuff. Mentally we're a lot stronger as we get older and that's a key element of successful distance running. 

    At DD you'll be able to put your own drinks out to the drink stations so no need to carry your drink. Also if you get to plan Z the IOM do the same, as do some other smallish marathons.

    Cal - wow, that is really interesting. Good to know that you do plenty of strength work and don't need to do more.  Reassuring about the sitting too. I suppose this is a long term project and you have homework to do.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Very interesting Cal - how do you retrain yourself then?  Is it specific exercises?

    Ian, it is interesting looking back and wondering what may have happened if we'd started earlier.  In my case, I often wonder what would have happened if we'd have been encouraged more at school.  At my school, we did a X-Country race once a year with absolutely no training, and a school sports day that included 100m, 200m, 400m, and from memory 1500m again with no training.  I somehow managed to win the 100m and 200m, which was as much of a surprise to me as to anyone else, but the point is the focus was on sports such as basketball for the lads and hockey for the girls.  I often wonder how many of those people still play those sports (I expect it's basically zero) whereas running is something that many can do later in life.

    There was a mate of mine at school who was basically hopeless at football, rugby, basketball, cricket, etc etc - he's say himself that he was crap at all sports at school, and looking back the teachers didn't really encourage him in anything.  Don't get me wrong - at the time he was probably quite happy just to be left alone at sports!  He wasn't interested.  But since then he's now a great runner and also a triathlete, something I'd have thought no one saw coming when he was kid.
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Cal-That looks like a really good session for you,has she given you any idea on  how long until you can move on to the next part?
    Looking back in school we only played rugby and football,think I remember an odd long distance run we'd do now and again,but not much,I think I was ok at it,never a winner but nearer the front than back.
    Shades-I wouldn't have had the time with kids etc so would probably have rushed things and injured myself that way.
    2 more shifts then a week in fuerteventura,really looking forward to it,last year we went for a 5 mile run most days,but I'm going to do that then extend some to add up,also hoping to do 20 on Friday if the wind eases.
  • Cal JonesCal Jones ✭✭✭
    Yes, I have specific exercises to do which are more about getting my brain to make the connections to the body parts than making stuff strong. She said 4-8 weeks is typical.
  • KhanivoreKhanivore ✭✭✭
    Thanks for the nutrition advice everyone :) Shades you make a really good point about the gel advice coming from people selling the gels lol :) The gels I used only have about 23g carb. They are VERY runny. They are called High 5 aqua. Might be worth a try if the other ones made you feel sick AND you want some?

    I don’t plan to go for any type of records (personal or world) at Paris :) With this in mind I will take it easy, enjoy the race and lay off the gels. I’ll definitely come back and tell you how I get on.

    Paris marks the start of my training for my first ultra (in September). I am using that ultra as an excuse to force me to do lots more running now. I hope to be back in this thread more!

    bigG am I reading that right about you having a 3:20 marathon now? Wow that’s amazing! I’m sure you were much much slower when I first met you in this thread. That’s really inspiring! How did you do that? Specific speed work or just lots of slow running?
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Ha, thanks Khani.  Yeah, I did 3:19 in Malta last February and also 3:20 in San Sebastian in November (they're my two quickest times, by some margin).  You may remember that I struggled for what seemed to be a long time to get under 4hrs (in fact, it was 2 years ago today that I went under 4hrs for the first time, but I've now got 32 sub-4s).  I do very little speed work, and that 3:19 at Malta everything came together on the day with the weather, course, feeling good and I just had a good race after some fairly consistent training where I peaked at 70 miles a week (that's still my highest training week).  The 3:20 in November I was on for a small PB but it just slightly slipped away at the end.  I don't feel in that shape at the moment though, but I'll get it back hopefully.
  • Cal JonesCal Jones ✭✭✭
    Another 8 miles this morning. It should have been a longer run but I realised at 5 miles I was starting to tire and my achilles was getting more and more grumpy. I think I'm still recovering from the Big Half (I normally get over halves quickly, but I was a lot more achey after this one, probably due to battling against the wind) but I also realised I was dehydrated. I didn't drink much yesterday as I was busy, and that will have a big negative effect on my running.
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2019
    Big G - I've never had any sporting talent.  My school was quite sporty, the usual hockey, netball, swimming and tennis. But we also did gymnastics which I liked and in the summer we all got a chance to try athletics, so we all tried high jump, long jump, shot, discus, javelin and sprint stuff and even though I was useless it was fun learning the techniques and having a go.  We had XC running too but my friend and I used to run off to the local primary school where my friend's mother was a teacher and we'd have tea and cake and then run back, I never actually knew the XC course that we were supposed to do as I never did it.   I was fairly fit though as I had a pony and used to ride every day.


    Ian - perfect timing to get away for a spot of warm weather training.  This awful wind is with us for a few days, no chance of doing my Hadd test tomorrow as I need still conditions.

    Khanivore - no thanks, don't fancy those gels :#  it's the runny consistency that I don't like.   I'll stick to sweets, a lot cheaper.  Roughly 2 bags at about 85p each will do me for 3 marathons.

    I know you've been wanting to do an ultra for some time, which ultra are you doing?


    Cal - you'll be really good at the brain/muscle isolation work with your Pilates and Yoga history.   It's hard though all that concentrating.   


    Circuits was really good today, really good fun, hard though.  I opted for triceps dips instead of step ups today so I don't get any calf niggles this week.
  • 1SteveMac1SteveMac ✭✭✭
    Shades - The HADD stuff is interesting and ties in nicely with my LT testing, as I now know the pace/HR I need to train under to burn fat rather than carbs.
    7 miles with strides today.
  • KhanivoreKhanivore ✭✭✭
    edited March 2019
    BigG - WOW so just doing LOTS of miles consistently is enough to get from 4hrs to 3:20!?? That's SO encouraging! With consistent training and following Shades plan for my first marathon I got VERY close to 4hrs but it's all been downhill from there. I am at about 4.30-45 marathon time I think. If you are saying that simply running more at a slow pace might get me to sub 3.30 I am VERY VERY encouraged! :) What did your 60-70mpw plan look like?

    Shades - I've signed up for the Chiltern Wonderlands 50 :) It's one of the Centurion Running events. Do you know it? I'm VERY worried about the hills - more than the distance. I'm crap with hills. Will start training on them more after Paris is out of the way. 

    1SteveMac - I read up on the HADD stuff years ago but wasn't patient enough to stick with it. Are you going to do it? How are you doing the LT testing - just seeing how fast you can run for an hour? That hurts! :)


  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Khani, I ran every day when I did that 70 mile week. It’s probably not in any training plan to do that but I’d had a couple of big weeks and just felt good so went with it. What I mean is, I didn’t just immediately ramp up to 70 miles and start running every day.

    Mon-Thurs was hilly runs at around 9:30-10min/miles. Fri I ran twice and did 4-miles at HMP in the morning and then 12x45 sec hard efforts in the evening. Saturday was an easy 6-miler, and then Sunday I raced a hilly half, which was two weeks before the marathon. I only did 1:40 at the half but it’s hilly and I just felt great - at 70 miles for that week, deep down I knew that I was running well. I did a bit of a taper and then did Malta marathon. I was hopeful for 3:30 but surprised myself on the day and went under 3:20 for a 10-min PB.

    The other thing was that I got a 5 mile PB a week before the Half so knew I had some speed, even though on paper the Half wasn’t a fantastic time. Also, I was a good weight at that time too, which I think helped. 
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