Overdone it?

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  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    edited April 2019
    Thanks chaps, still very pleased. My last 5k split was my fastest which is pleasing. 

    Quads are mashed today and i suspect will feel worse tomorrow. I'm definitely not running an Autumn mara. I need to give myself time to improve some more, though i find it hard to think i can much further. However i do think i can make some in roads in other distances. 

    I'll do a full and detailed report in a day or so. 

    My observations watching last night were much as stated above. Charlotte Purdue just looks nothing like a top class mara runner. As Carruthers fell and started crawling i said to my wife she just needs to turn slightly and force her foot over before she completely goes. 

    Well done on the trail/fell race, Tommy. 

    Same to you on the lfotm pb, David. 

    oh, and the 7 hour pacer! That's 16mm pace. I couldnt contemplate being out there that long. 
  • McFloozeMcFlooze ✭✭✭
    I was reading an account of the 7 AND A HALF hour pacer this morning.  They were treated absolutely terribly.  The girl did her job and they came in at 7.28.  But they shut up all the water stations and the sweepers were literally squirting them with cleaning chemicals as they were going along.  If you are going to have a pacer at that pace and it's inside the cut off then don't do that, awful way to treat people.  On the other hand, if you think 7.5 hours is unreasonable then have a tighter cut-off, tell people about it in advance and don't have a pacer.  

    To some extent the completing a marathon thing is complete crap though.  Why not do some training, lose some weight and train to run say a 5 or 6 hour marathon which is really not that challenging for someone who runs regularly and trains for it. There are loads of walking events if you just want to walk.  And there are loads of people who want to actually RUN the marathon.  
  • Completely agree McFlooze.  I guess that is the nature of open and fair entry though.  Anyone can get a place.  7.5 hours is around 17m/m pace which is still slow even by walking standards!   Appalling way to be treated though.

    What I think they could really improve on are those who have entered consecutively over the years and still failed to get in.  That whole system is flawed.  Yes OK, I could pledge to raise £2000 and get a charity place but I don't fancy that sort of commitment.  I like to think I do a fair bit of fundraising anyway without that sort of pressure and all whilst training for a decent time too.


  • Re 7 and over pacers - yes my feeling is don't have them but if you do have them treat them and the people who are moving along (struggled for the right description :-)) beside them with respect.

    However don't think they are taking the place of others who could run 3 hours 30 mins - that time slot is rammed.

    Presumably they changed the 5 years and in rule to force more people towards the charities. I think if you are keen to run London and are prepared to do lots of training then GFA is the way to get in although vaguely remember they've changed the rules on that recently too.

  • I think it has.  The GFA time for entry into 2020 for me would be sub 3.  I would need to accomplish that by August this year.  Never going to happen.  Certainly something I can work towards though if I feel like doing another mara in the future though.
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    Pacing 7 hours 30? That's probably quite a tough gig to not be tempted to run, and just have to keep to moderate/brisk pace for that long 

    Wokingham half apparently had 1hr 15 pacers this year!

    Talk about one extreme to the other!
  • McFloozeMcFlooze ✭✭✭
    Talking about extremes the friend I mentioned above who ran 2:27 put in an 11 minute PB.  Massive. 

    At my advanced age I'd only need sub 3:50 for GFA. There is talk about whether they might be changing the Champs start requirements though - currently sub-3:15 for women, sub 2:40 for men I think.    
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    London Marathon 2019

    So this was to be my 5th London and 7th marathon. Having run sub 3 in October my next target was to run London in sub 3.

    I considered what I had done to date and felt that having spent 4 years training almost exclusively alone and making things up as I went, I was bored and needed to shake things up. In particular I noted that I very rarely worked hard in training. I was happy to do the miles but the biggest session I ever did was 5 or 6 miles at mara pace.

    Therefore I decided to enlist the help of a coach to provide me with a different perspective and some accountability. I suppose I was a tough proposition for him as nearing 43 years of age and having just set pbs in 5k, hm and mara in the months immediately prior how much was there more to find. We started working together in early November and whilst a lot of his structure wasn’t too different to what I had been doing, he moved me right out of my comfort zone that I was in.

    I don’t need to tell you again how hard I trained as most of it was reported on the forum. We targeted a few races over the winter without really yielding the result I felt my fitness suggested. However the focus remained on nailing London.

    From the outset the coach drilled into me the importance and benefits of negative splitting and so I began routinely running to that in training, not just in sessions but also picking up the 2nd half of long runs.

    The plan for London was simply put to me bit by bit over April and finalised last week. It was to start out at 6.50s to get through half way at between 1.29-1.29.30 then start picking it up and finish strong. It was also put to me that I should run without my HRM. He felt it held me back and gave me something else to worry about etc. He clearly feels I over think things!! I took that advice on the chin and went with the whole plan.

    The build up to the race went well as did the carb load. I felt much more calm this time than any previous marathons. I am not sure if this is because I no longer had the pressure on me to log a sub 3 time or because I was confident in my training and fitness.

    I arrived at the yellow start and did my prep. I decided to plant myself towards the back of the pen as there would be some very fast people in there and I didn’t want to get carried away.

    It took me a minute plus to cross the line. It was pleasing how much space I had from the off, though I was conscious that when we merged with the other starts that would change. I found the pace quite difficult as I set off and began doubting my ability. Coach had warned me of this and told me this happens and I just need to have faith and stick with it and it would come easier. There was nothing noteworthy about the first few miles, I just stuck to the task and turned over the miles at 6.54, 6.50 and 6.43 (downhill) and went through the first 5k in 21.21.

    Then came the merger and this made things much trickier as the red/yellow always seems to be behind the equivalent runners from the other starts. I like to break things down so from there it was a matter of trying not to weave too much and keep a steady line and get to Cutty Sark on plan. I took a gel at mile 5 though I really didn’t fancy it. I had made a late decision to not use the maurten gels and reverted to the high5 aqua gels. This gave me a little bit of a stomach ache but it soon passed, however it did put me on alert as to what was to come. The miles continued to tick over and the effort wasn’t getting any easier. I knew that with over measurement I really needed my average pace to be at or around 6.45 by half way to make target. Everytime I tried to nudge on and get the average down it really didn’t feel good. I went through 10k in 42.30 with a 5k split of 21.09 (6.46, 6.46 and 6.48). Some basic maths told me this was ok.

  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Next stage, tick off 10 miles. Nothing notable happened here and they came in 6.46, 6.42, 6.50 and 6.47 with the next 5k in 21.17. Again some maths told me I am pacing well. I still don’t feel great but take another gel at 9. Again it sends a warning through my stomach but passes. The last thing I want is gastric issues. Right, my favourite part is Tower Bridge let’s get there and really enjoy it. For some reason my London marathons always really pick up in that stage coming off Tower Bridge through to 20 miles so I have a very positive association with this stage. Things continue to tick over and I get a bit faster and start settling into it. Next 3 miles come in 6.44, 6.41 and 6.37 and a 21.04 5k. As I come off Tower Bride I really get my race head on. People are slowing already, or I am going faster.  I started thinking that this was it, just 13 at mp and it was my favourite part. Let’s smash the arse out of it!! Just coming off Tower Bridge I spot a lady with purple hair so immediately know it’s Speedy. I give her a quick tap on the shoulder, say hi then move on, I’m now in a really good place, I feel strong and feel like I am moving really well. I go through half way at 1.29.24, about 45 seconds slower than in Yorkshire. I feel pleased that I am sticking to the plan but now it needed to pay dividends. It is a huge risk to be running at your capacity for a distance that you know inevitably grinds you down and putting all your eggs in one basket going into the 2nd half.

    The miles kept ticking by, 6.37, 6.41 and 6.50. My next 5k split to 25k is 20.57. I try and do the maths as I go over the mat. I can’t quite get it but know it is in range. It is here the wheels start coming off for people. I am telling myself it is a matter of head down and do what the plan says. I decide I really ought to take another gel at 15. I am wary of this as I feel strong but there’s still a lot to do. I decide I must but take it slowly to reduce its impact on my stomach. A little grumble but I get away with it.

    I am approaching Canary Wharf now which is a bit of a Bermuda Triangle and dream killer. I want to get to 16, then it’s just 10 at mp which I do on my lunchbreak so it is easy!

    As we enter I can see a 3 hour pacer ahead of me and it’s blue. I think to myself let’s just catch up with him as I have a good minute on the blue start and let him do the work and pull me home in low 2.59s. This gives me some solid focus through Canary Wharf. The miles are sticking to form with 6.41, 6.44, 6.19 (peak Canary wharf gps madness) and 6.34 to take me to 20. I get to the pacer after about 5 minutes of steady chasing and realise it is ridiculously crowded and they are all in my way.

    I make the decision to ditch them. I pause for a moment to contemplate my decision and how surreal it seems to be ditching a 3 hour pacer that has started ahead of me anyway. You’re over thinking it, 20 miles is down, you feel strong now is the time to just run I tell myself!! The next 5k split to 30k is 20.52, again I attempt the maths but all I can get to is that it’s fine.

    As we come out of Canary Wharf I see what I think is OO ahead of me. He is a target to chase now. I catch him after a couple of minutes and say hi then push on. Somewhere around 21 there is a switchback and I get a chance to see what is happening behind. The 3hr pacer is about 20m behind me. I resolve to never see the guy again! I begin doing deals with myself as to what pace I can drop to in order to sub 3. I have a word with myself as I am thinking like a loser, slipping in just sub 3 is not the target now as this is being smashed. I start another gel at 21, have a few sips then throw it. I believe I have enough to get by without it and it has the potential of doing more harm than good.

  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Next few miles go well, 6.37, 6.46 and 6.40. Ok, I just need that horrible tunnel done now and then I can start running down the Embankment. I see ahead of me a club vest from my club. It can only be one person and he is coming back to me. This would be a huge scalp for me. I plan how I get passed him. I debate letting him know as I pass or just going. I’m not in a club vest so he might not notice me. As I close on him I put in a surge and open up my stride to make it look impossible for him to come with me. He calls my name out, damn he has spotted me and won’t let this go easily. I pretend I am surprised and say hi!!!

    I keep ploughing away and hit the 40k marker with my fastest 5k of the day in 20.41. The official clock is on 2.50.xx. I start feeling tired now and think well even if I 8mm this 2k I am on for a pb due to the time it took to cross the line.

    Miles 24 and 25 come by in 6.55 and 6.49. Ok so 1.3 miles to go. I decide to go cautious and not push the pace. Whilst it hasn’t troubled me since I took some advice on it I am conscious of my weird finish line phobia. At about 25.5 my clubmate comes by, clearly determined not to be beaten by me. I just concentrate on nothing silly now. Mile 26 comes in at 7mm dead (disappointed not to get the full set of 6.xx). The 800m sign has just been and we are onto the Mall. I recall the horror show from 2018 where I had to stop 3 times due to dry heaving. I put into place my coping plan that I have practiced for some months. I feel relaxed but I am not chancing it, I don’t need to.

    We see the 400m sign and turn to Buckingham Palace, I hear my daughter scream ‘Daaaddddyyyyy’. I turn and wave but cannot see them. A sharp right and the 200m sign. No issues so I start opening my stride. I get towards the Grandstand and what must be 100m and squirt the bottle of water over my head and start sprinting as I can see the official clock on 2.59.xx. As I get to within 50m I start punching the air and going faster to which the Grand stand respond and I cross the line in in 2.57.56 with 6.37 pace for the last 0.4. Initially I felt unsteady but very quickly recover and bound over to my clubmate who beat me by 19s in the end.

    So, that was a 1.58 pb from October and a 6.49 course pb with my first ever negative spit of 52 seconds.  The stats tell me that in the first half I passed 1398 and was passed by 355. I am not sure you can tell a great deal from that as the race needs to settle. The second half tells a better story with me passing 953 and being passed by 12. I have never felt so strong and prepared for a marathon and I think the advice to ditch the HRM paid off. I ran with my optical on but not displaying and that gave me 165 average with my HR very quickly getting pretty high and this may well have caused me concerns.

    Great to meet the chaps in the pub afterwards and be immediately insulted by OO not only mocking my quite expensive running vest but also in polite terms telling me how he noted when I went passed him that I looked ‘quite big’ for a runner!!

  • DavidHaydon83DavidHaydon83 ✭✭✭
    edited April 2019
    Great write up DT and what a brilliant finish to the race.
  • McFloozeMcFlooze ✭✭✭
    Can't believe a. you raced not in your vest and then b. "pretended" not to see your club mate.  Bet tongues are wagging at your club now!  

    Very good write up though and you did very well.  I didn't realise you'd got yourself a coach.  Where did you find him?  A local one or an online one?  
  • Skinny Fetish FanSkinny Fetish Fan ✭✭✭
    edited April 2019

    'It was also put to me that I should run without my HRM......'

    '....and I think the advice to ditch the HRM paid off'

    Hallelujah!!

    A dream marathon experience - well done again.

  • literatinliteratin ✭✭✭
    I was trying to watch you finish on TV but I missed it because you were wearing the wrong vest.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    edited April 2019

    Mcf, I didn't really tell anyone about the coach as didn't really know how it would pan out. He isn't yiur classic coach stood with you on the trackside, but much more than a bloke on the Internet sending schedules through each month. 

    Re my clubmate, I knew that he was stuck somewhere between sub 3 and a pb and was therefore able to crank it up a bit if he really had to and seeing me would produce that response. In terms of the club vest, mine seems to hold sweat/water and is drenched by the end of a race. The one I have purchased is a nike elite aeroswift and stays ridiculously dry.

    Sadly whilst it looked red on the nike website and was described as such it is very clearly salmon/pink!

  • McFloozeMcFlooze ✭✭✭
    Sounds like the coach worked for you.  Was it a local person or an online person?  Interesting that you got pushed out of your comfort zone and allowed you to trust in process and stop second-guessing a bit more.  Needs to be the right person, I think I'd have trust issues unless I felt really confident in them, but great that they seemingly gave you loads of confidence.  You've got me thinking...
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    DT19 said:

    Mcf, I didn't really tell anyone about the coach as didn't really know how it would pan out. He isn't yiur classic coach stood with you on the trackside, but much more than a bloke on the Internet sending schedules through each month. 

    Re my clubmate, I knew that he was stuck somewhere between sub 3 and a pb and was therefore able to crank it up a bit if he really had to and seeing me would produce that response. In terms of the club vest, mine seems to hold sweat/water and is drenched by the end of a race. The one I have purchased is a nike elite aeroswift and stays ridiculously dry.

    Sadly whilst it looked red on the nike website and was described as such it is very clearly salmon/pink!

    Having been coached by Moraghan this way throughout all my pbs (bar mile!), and having had a crack with the likes of Skinny, this way certainly is an effective method.

    Otherwise, one session fits all sessions might bring people on to some extent, but surely can't maximise them in the main.
    I look at my club, yeah they do some nice sessions, and some runners simply progress anyway, but the sessions don't seem to follow on, or progress, and noone really knows what paces they're aiming for.

    The craziest one is these coachpark sessions.
    People just utterly smash round, probably doing wildly different reps. All very enjoyable, but arguably a crock of sh!T for pbs ;)

    ps, great race and report.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    He's a former GB track athlete based in Loughborough and still an exceptionally good runner and at 33 still has gb ambitions. I clicked straight away with him, really top bloke. Most of my running was largely unchanged ie lots of short easy runs and an MLR but he got me into doing 2 solid sessions a week which i would never have tasked myself to do, and often incorporated the session into my long run. The 10m tempos i did quite often were a big help. 

    He also tried not to interfere yoo much with my other things like spin classes. He discouraged me from racing every 2 weeks and stopped the cramming of sessions to fit weeks etc.


  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    edited April 2019
    Thanks, SG. I know other runners he coaches and we all have bespoke schedules even if training for same race so it is much more than a bloke sat at a computer churning out fortnightly schedules on repeat to every new runner. 

    There is also a discussion about sessions and how it left me feeling etc and if we agree the effort was too high then next time he will put limits on the sessions effort levels etc. 
  • Tommy2DTommy2D ✭✭✭
    Great report, DT and perfectly executed race. Congratulations again. I had wondered if you were being coached as seeing some of your sessions on Strava, some of them looked quite bespoke.

    My legs are still a bit tender after Sunday's fell race but getting better.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Tommy, yes I am surprised that people who see my strava and have done for say the last year or 2 didn't ask the question.

    I think it is pretty likely that I will run that Beeston 5 miler. Does it measure fairly accurately?

    Does anyone know how the strava distance recalculation works? I measured 26.40 sunday, so then used that tool and it actually upped my distance to 26.68. If that were accurate it means I ran 0.5m further than Yorkshire mara which is around 3.5 minutes extra running.

  • DT - something goes very wrong with GPS as you enter Canary Wharf. That was where I slowed down and stopped at the St. John's ambulance and where your clubmate gave me a shout. Strava credited me with the pace of Kipchoge on that 0.75 mile section. Who knows what pace Kipchoge got on his Strava ! I think all bets are off on the distance measurements around there.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    I logged 6.26 for that mile I think. However I was then much further out from the mile markers than when I went into Canary wharf.
  • Tommy2DTommy2D ✭✭✭

    DT - here's my trace from it last year (it was 4 days after the inter-county fell champs and my legs were in a bit of a mess, hence the stopping in the middle of a race for a bit of a stretch before carrying on):

    https://www.strava.com/activities/1591603077

    Measures bang on. The last 400m or so are on grass, effectively around a ruby pitch, which is a bit annoying but other than that that it's a decent course and very flat.  

  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    That does look good and fast Tommy. I've booked out my work outlook so I can finish at 4pm.

    I have our local and very hilly 10k a week Sunday. Just a bit of fun really.

  • McFloozeMcFlooze ✭✭✭
    Are your club not doing the Hilly 100 this year, DT?


  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    I think they are. There was an e-mail about it and they tried to get me involved when I was at the rd relays but I didn't want to commit in case I was battered after London, whereas a 10k by my house isn't a problem if I don't run.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    edited May 2019

    Going back to the conversation about cut off time runners, I came across a FB post of a friend of a friend last night who took 8.10!! She has written a lengthy post about her awful experience which is worth a read. It seems to be a public post (Sara Evans) and plenty of debate to be had around it.

    Just seen this on BBC which echoes what the fb post says-

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-48125731

  • It is shocking that people were treated like that - if they were allowed to pay their entry and there was a pacer for that time then the course should have been unaltered for them UNLESS they were warned in advance.

    However I have an alternative headline.

    The original headline.

     'London marathon runners 'called fat and slow' by contractors'

    My alternative

    'Fat and slow people who walked London Marathon called 'runners' in BBC article'

  • literatinliteratin ✭✭✭
    Runners are warned in advance of what the cut-off times will be; however, I don't think it's made sufficiently clear to them that they won't be starting the race till well over an hour after the official starting time. So if the course is open for 8 hours and you can do it in 7.5 hours, you've actually got no chance of making the cut-off even if you might plausibly think you have.
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