Sub 3h15

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  • OO54OO54 ✭✭✭
    Not sure your glory days are over Jools. Very difficult to combine a tough job, running and family. When the balance shifts you'll be back on it as a Vet 😉
    SBD I'm in serious taper mode. Swam yesterday and nothing today apart from a painful massage and a long easy walk.
  • G-DawgG-Dawg ✭✭✭
    Swift work, Leslie.

    Solid XC Jools, congrats.

    Yes, SBD, will drag myself around NYC to bag my 5th star one way or another.

    Tonight’s steady run ended up being 12 miles. It came out at 7.23 pace and was very consistent, two splits just over 7.30 pace due to traffic issues and polished off with a 7.06 to test the leg a bit but all very controlled. Loads of good signs, knee much better and only slight calf pain without reaction at the end. Getting there, slowly.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    edited October 2019

    SBD, just keep it calm now, the work is more than done. Hope the weather forecasts in Abingdon and York are reasonable?

    Jules, I'm sure you'll work your way back up with some consistent training over the winter.

    Leslie, decent mile reps. My recoveries are always pretty short so that the cumulative stress to system builds up. I think on 800m reps, 90s rest would allow for almost total recovery. Though I suppose I was only going at 10k pace. Perhaps if I were doing them 10s a mile faster I might want/need a bit more.

    G-dawg, sounds positive. What is the process for NY gfa applics? I have a mara and half mara gfa time and it's my wife's 40th next November and I have mooted a birthday trip to NY but on the basis we go for the mara weekend so I can tick that off. She seems receptive to it but purely on the basis that I am not there to race for a time, which I won't be as I will have hopefully run Berlin 5 weeks earlier. My main concern is the hike is prices of flights and accom because it's the mara weekend. Have you found that to be the case?

    easy 8m over lunch today hopefully followed by spin tonight. I am trying to mop up my Saturday morning sessions through the week so that I can lie on the sofa watching rugby al morning.

  • DT - cracking lunchtime reps. Good plan to get a lazy saturday morning!
    Jools - hang on in there. I'm sure you'll be back at the top before long.
    SBD - all looking good. You can't be too careful ;) It was 40 mins swimming.
    Leslie - good work at the club session. I think I mentioned when I started the swimming that it wasn't a 25m pool (maybe 20m but certainly no more) so not exactly speeding!
    GD - nice progress.
    12 steady miles this morning .

  • G-DawgG-Dawg ✭✭✭
    DT - The GFA process for NYC was dead easy, just followed the links on the GFA website page. Usual process for for providing a link to evidence the GFA qualification result etc. They do force you to be a member of the New York Road Runners (no cost) but the race entry fee is astronomical!  I think it was about £280!! I've tried not to think about it... a life experience, can't put a price on these things and all that!

    I didn't really notice an uplift on flights and hotel. During the booking process I played with the dates to check the differences for marathon weekend and the couple of weeks either side, no difference. Boston on the other hand was massively more expensive on marathon weekend.

    We had a few days in New York in 2017 before getting the train up to Boston, we're staying in the same New York hotel and the price is about the same (just checked, it's actually a tad cheaper).
    Staying just a few blocks and easy short walk away from, the Manhattan coach pick-up point to take me to the start.

    If I can get this weekend's 20 miler done and another 12 miler next Tuesday sorted I'll be confident I'll get round in a half decent time (3.2x) and have a great time whilst doing it. Feels nice going into a big event with no PB pressure, just need to have some sort of time target to maintain race pace focus.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    It says they are allocated on a first come first served basis so I guess I just need to be on it when GFA entries open.

    I'd rad about the cost of Boston so wondered if the same applied to NY, but much like London, NY is way big enough to absorb a weekend of marathon runners without hiking all the prices.

    Easy 8 over lunch, though unusually for me average pace was 7.50mm. First time in a long while I've popped in a sub 8mm easy run.

  • SBD.SBD. ✭✭✭
    edited October 2019

    Don't start running those easy runs too quick DT!  Berlin and New York would be a good combination - I may do one of them, two would be hard work!

    Good to see you have a plan for NYC G-D, I would have given up by now.

    Nice mid-week miles Gul - any races planned?

    An interesting approach to the taper OO - how's the plan shaping up for Sunday?

    MP test this morning, so 8 miles with the middle 2 at MP.  These came out pretty comfortably at 6:23 pace for a HR of 159, so just below marathon effort of 165.  My target time when I started the Abingdon Campaign was Sub 2:58 (i.e. a PB), so I'm finding the goal pace setting a little tricky at the moment and want to avoid anything too ambitious. As long as the next couple of days goes to plan, I will just run to feel on the day and see where that gets me.

    Weather forecast for Abingdon looking almost perfect at the moment but we'll see how that changes over the next few days.

    Will start the carb loading tomorrow.

    Is it too late to get a pair of the pink magic shoes?

  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    DT-Just to add on the NYC,I did berlin and am doing frankfurt then New York so you'd be fine.
    The GFA says 1st come 1st serves but when I looked into it I couldn't find anyone who had been rejected,if I remember right it virgin had a sale just after it opened so I dropped NYRR an email asking was I in and they replied super quick saying yes so I got the flights cheap,also accom was good as the ballot results weren't out.
    GD-Where about are you staying,I'm in the Stanford.
  • OO54OO54 ✭✭✭
    Easy 8 here too, then another swim planned tomorrow. I’m feeling good SBD-,a realistic plan based on my training is 3:05 but I’ll probably start at 3 hour pace and adjust to feel. 
  • GD - hope your plan comes together.
    DT - good easy lunchtime run.
    SBD - Hold your nerve - you are in cracking form and should be on for a great race. Enjoy the carb-loading! No races planned at the moment - other than London :) Might look for a HM in March.
    Ian - good luck.
    OO - all the best for York too. 
    Another swim today. 80 lengths in a tad under 40 mins.
  • BirchBirch ✭✭✭
    still lurking  . . .  
    Gul, what is this madness ;)  - a swim is one thing, but 80 lengths !!!   
    SBD - good luck - trust your training, don't worry re the shoes - what's in your legs is more important than what's on the end of them (obvious caveat of no plimsolls or hiking boots) ;)   
    ok, time for a run here . . . . 
    Image result for tinman pics
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    There's no danger of that, SBD. I wouldn't say 7.50 is going too crazy and that's as fast as it'll go. I would probably set off at pb so about 6.45 and stick there for a good while. Then if it becomes obvious that you have lots to give start edging on in the second half. My average hr in London was 165. I can run about 10m at sub 6.30 pace for that HR, however I certainly couldn't manage a marathon.

    Nice swimming, Gul!

    Ian, that's some marathoning!! Did you target Berlin and then ease off at Frankfurt or are you trying to smash them all? I recall in the winter you did Wrexham half in about 1.26. How have you progressed with the marathon times?

    OO, you have plenty of endurance in your legs and whilst you haven't prepared quite as much, i'm sure you'll be pushing sub 3.

    Followed yesterdays lunch run with a light spin class to flush the legs.

  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    DT-Nice memory,Frankfurt was originally my main aim but I got a chance to do Berlin so had to take it,got 3:09 there so happy with that,going to go for it at Frankfurt and see where I and then New York is purely a fun and enjoy it run.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    So what's the Frankfurt target, sub 3.05? If you went full tilt in Berlin i'd be surprised to see you better it 3 weeks later, but we are all different.

    Yeah if I make NY I plan to enjoy myself in the days before so it will definitely be a 'fun run'.

  • G-DawgG-Dawg ✭✭✭
    Ian - Seems I'm only a couple of blocks away from you on East 32nd. Might see you at Bryant Square for the bus ride. I'll be the one super relaxed in the knowledge I'm only on a fun run! :)

    Went for a 6 mile recovery last night. I did attempt a few strides but my legs weren't having it. It was the first time I'd done four runs in five days (45 miles) for months and I was pushing my luck a bit. The calf was moaning again and the knee said hello but nothing major.

    Two rest days now and then my second and final 20 mile time on feet session this Saturday. Same trail route as last week and another 3 hours for time on feet.

    This really feels like training on a tightrope. Can't wait to get next week out of the way when there is nothing else I can do apart from just enjoy the race and then have the whole of November off to repair.
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    GD-I'll be the same so we can chill around the course.
    DT-I know what you mean,the reasons I think I may go better are that I ran a negative split,so thinking if I go a little faster will I still be OK? Lots of congestion in Berlin meant lots of extra distance,hoping Frankfurt won't be as bad,but the main reason is the last 2 autumns I've ran races 2 and 3 weeks apart,and improved in each 2nd race by 2 and 5 mins so hoping for the hat trick.
    But despite this I know I could crash but I'll be happy as I've already got a PB so worth a go.
  • SBD.SBD. ✭✭✭

    Good work on the four runs G-D.

    You need to invest in some modern clothing Birch! Hope the training is going well.  Will be interesting to see how many pink shoes there are at Abingdon.  Is your son not using them?

    Good advice on the pacing DT. Last time I ran Abingdon, I ended up running in a group of one from 7 miles so I'm hoping for a bit more company this time.

    That's a lot of lengths Gul.

    Sounds like a good plan OO - you may surprise yourself.

    10K recovery this morning and then a steady programme of carb-loading for the day.  Nothing complicated just rice, bananas, raisins and sports drink along with some lean protein and tomato sauce.

    Weighed in this morning at 70kg, so 1kg below Boston weight and the lowest I've been for some time.

  • BirchBirch ✭✭✭
    SBD - ha ha - the pic is a representation of my gait these days :)   
    no, he's not taken the plunge yet - but he reduced his half-m PB to 71:16 at Manchester last weekend in his trusty Boston Boosts . . .  
    looking good on the weight front, too, SBD - really hope it goes well for you - I admire your focus - may you get the return you deserve  
  • RichNRichN ✭✭✭
    edited October 2019

    Hello. Been a long time since I posted. Checks records. April 2018. Been lurking on and off since then, far too much to catch up on individually but generally seems like there has been some great running and some folk have moved their times forwards impressively. 

    So quick(ish) recap of my last 18 months. Last posted after wilting at a hot 2018 Vienna marathon attempting sub 3 and finishing in 3:12 (memories of cramp agony on the Prater were recalled watching Kipchoge smash it on Saturday!)

    Then aimed to have another crack at sub 3 at Valencia in December 2018. Training was looking good and I logged some training runs that looked on a par or maybe better than during my build up to Vienna (during which I got my half time down to 81.48, and parkrun down to 18.25). 

    Unfortunately, real life (read family illness/crisis) got in the way and running (and virtually any other exercise) had to have a brief hiatus in mid-October and pretty much ceased for the rest of 2018 from mid-November. 

    Frustratingly I only did one race in anger during my aborted Valencia training phase, knocking one second off my 5k pb down to 18.24 (paced it horrendously though - 1st km in 3:22 - so definitely left some time out there!) 

    2019 started with me being probably the most out of shape I’d been since taking my running seriously in autumn 2015. With kid #2 arriving in Feb, I'd promised my wife no marathon for 2019. So I took it upon myself to get fit again and try and get my 10k and 5k times down. 

    Succeeded on getting my 10k PB down to 37:08 back in April (a chunky 98s improvement on my prior PB). Was hoping to kick on from there but a hamstring issue prevented consistent running from mid May to mid August, so haven't run a 5k in anger yet this year, or another 10k (I’d love to sneak under 37). 

    Finally got back into consistent training the last two months and now just about getting back to the level I was at in April. Short term hoping to nail a 5k PB and possibly sub 18 (I went through 5k in my 10k PB in 18:17 for an unofficial 5k best). 

    I was already weighing up a spring marathon attempt (Seville was looking the favourite) but my focus has been sharpened by getting lucky in the London ballot which given I live in London is logistically dead easy. 

    So if anyone has stuck through this onto my questions for the wiser heads here... which is mainly based around what plan to follow and which marathon to run...
  • RichNRichN ✭✭✭
    edited October 2019

    For Vienna and my aborted Valencia attempt. I followed the old (ie it’s not on the website anymore) RW Asics Target 26.2 sub 3 plan (https://www.petewilcock.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/ASICS_TRAININGPLANS_Sub-3.00.pdf). This peaks at 61M/98k per week and the average weekly mileage over the 16 weeks is 47.4M/76.3km based on 6 runs p/w. It’s quite tough in that each week includes 2 or 3 workouts plus a LR, with the remaining miles being easy/steady runs. 

    Have since bought the P&D book and tempted to run one of their schedules. But the up to 55M schedule obviously peaks at lower mileage (55M/88km) than I’ve done before and the average mileage over the 18 week plan is less at 43.8M pw. 

    However, the 55-70 p/w plan seems a stretch. It obviously peaks at 70M/113km but the average mileage is 59.4M/95.6km. That would be a big jump for me.

    To illustrate my biggest ever week is 60M/96k and biggest month 202M/325k. And for Vienna which was my biggest ever mileage marathon training block, I only actually ran 41.6M/66.9km pw average over the 16 training weeks.

    While I have no doubt that if I could complete most of the P&D 55-70 plan I would be in good shape to try and go sub 3, I worry it would break me. 

    Currently I’m up to about 37M/59k pw off 4 runs pw including one session, two easy and a LR up to 13M/21k plus 2.5 hours/70km of cycling on the turbo trainer. I have no worries regards running the Asics sub 3 plan or P&D up to 55 off this, which makes starting training for Monday for Seville an option. 

     But P&D suggest you should be at 45M with a 15M long run before attempting the 55-70 plan. I have 9 weeks to get there which shouldn’t be an issue but then I’m all in on London.

    So has anyone used the P&D marathon training schedules? And which ones? How have people found them? 

    Do people think with 5k/10k/HM PB times of 18:24/37:08/81:48 would the Asics sub 3 or P&D up to 55 mile plan get me to sub 3? Or should I aim for more mileage and build to the P&D 55-70 plan and run London? 

    FWIW I’m thinking my comparatively weak marathon time (3:12 PB) would benefit from a more focussed and higher mileage training plan – especially as I’m yet to complete any marathon without cramp in the closing stages stopping/slowing me. 

    However, I like the variety and know the Asics plans. I’ve previously followed the sub 3:30 variant and ran 3:30. Followed a mash up of the sub 3 and sub 3:30 plans aiming for sub 3:15 and ran 3:13. I know where I need to tweak them and I feel the sub 3 plan got me into around sub 3 shape for Vienna, but conditions on the day stopped a fair attempt. 

    Also, I can’t quite get my head around the fact the P&D plans don’t schedule a half marathon race. I always use my half race as a real pointer to what shape I’m in and what time marathon time is realistic. Have other people adapted a P&D plan to fit in a HM? Or just gone without? 

    Or finally do I ignore all these impersonal options and shell out for a coach so I get a plan specific for my strengths/weaknesses/keenness to keep some cross training involved? 

    I’m not fussed on the cost (within reason) and I really want to see what I can achieve before age slows me down – I’ll be V40 before the year is out. Any coach recommendations from anyone? 

    Picking a coach seems almost to pose as many questions and thoughts as picking a plan from an indecisive over analytical soul such as myself! Would be a big jump trusting it all to someone else but would love the simplification it would bring me from no more procrastination! 

    Anyway, apologies for length of post. Trust me I won’t post this length regularly! Finally, good luck for anyone running this weekend. 

  • RichNRichN ✭✭✭
    Sorry just read that back. What a brain dump. Just have no one to bounce it off. Maybe i should join a running club!! 
  • JoolskaJoolska ✭✭✭
    I started using p&d in 2007 and went from 3.19 to 3.07 the 1st time I followed the 55-70 schedule. Ultimately I got my time down to 2.49 so the high volume of steady running works. Most build up halfs I use as marathon pace runs but sometimes I do a full effort half but the key thing is little or no taper to keep the endurance focus there.
  • Ian welcome back and enjoy the multiple mara's 
    SBD down to racing weight enjoy the carb loading 
    Birch looks just how a feel a lot of days , your son is getting mighty quick a real chip of the old block !
    RICHN your half time is more than quick enough for sub 3 but I think a lack of mileage is possibly letting you down at mara distance address that and you are there . P&D is the gold standard on this thread , mostly longer run endurance based as that whats you need for a mara you can run halfs rather of the big mara paced runs ie the ones  10/12/14 at mara pace with long warmups up to say 5m to make the miles up and tag a couple on the end if needed. I ran them flat out but you probably shouldn't !
    As for coaches look up Gary o' hanlon on facebook he has ran 2:17 so knows a thing or 2 about running and  he seems to get amazing results out of people but I'm not sure you need a coach just a bit more miles a week and you should be there .A running club is great for motivation too if you struggle to get out the door and the competitive streak will soon come out .

    Talking of club sessions out tonight supposed to be 2 x15min tempo out and mara paced back with 2 min rest but as I'm not doing the mara it was 30 min hard tempo for me enjoyed flying past them all on the way in lol
    Miles were 6:48, 6:59, 6:57, 6:37 and 6:56 for the last 0.4m Miles 2 and 3 had a steady hill for quite a bit of each one so slowed me down a bit plus i had just went down a steep hill when I had to turn at 15 min and go straight back up , wore the HRM just to get some data and around 155-160 bpm for tempo pace and just over 8m in total and a lovely evening for it .

    Flyknits are here but too scared to take them on a tempo run out the box !




  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    edited October 2019
    Leslie - ooh, im interested in how the flynits go, mine are still unworn. Ive had a pair since May that are still unworn too. They are both for after Abo.

    SBD - approx 60 sub 255 and 120 sub 3 last yr. I liked it, its a proper runners race (not that im a proper runner), and not too packed like vlm where its a bundle for a drink.........had ti have fizz on my back ydsy as it had become an issue, got a telling off for coming in so messed up a few days before an A race, but hopefully itll have eased it by sunday (felt like id been hit by a truck this morning)........white cap, dark blue t-shirt, stubbly chops, focussed look, 2.54 handbrake, if you fancy it early doors then welcome aboard if not hope to see you on the road along the way.

    Rich - p and d is ace, strength not speed is required. But its a guide so you can shorten or drop some of the recoveries, its about week on top of week, not the odd run. No probs with the odd half too, my book has some in the schedules esp the higher mileage ones.
  • OO54OO54 ✭✭✭
    Good luck with the Flyknits I love them and will use them for York at the weekend.
    Rich I have no experience of P&D but higher mileage is I’m afraid unavoidable. I can also recommend Seville some time it’s a really flat and enjoyable Mara. 
    I also swam today but 120 lengths or 3k 😇
    I may sneak a short run on tomorrow.
    My weight is creeping up...
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Richn, I  can't run those 10k and half times but my last 2 maras have been sub 3. The noticeable difference though was that my last 2 maras were my highest ever mileage periods.

    Saying that though in the 12 weeks before my taper for London my average mileage was 52m with a 67m week peak. I do though x train for about 2 hours a week also.

    Incidentally I use a coach. I find it nice not to have to completely make up my training which I was before last November. I also like the accountability. I never used to do any sessions that caused me discomfort through the effort. I planned them then just changed them in the moment.

    SBD- I'd like to get back to 70kg. I'm a good bit shorter than you and at about 72.5 right now. It's getting a bit annoying, based on my fitbit scales since Holiday I am 1lb lighter but 2% lower bodyfat which I can easily feel in my clothes. I can't understand why my weight isn't coming down with it. It's hardly like i'm smashing the weights.

    Just stop weighing now, oo!! There's erdinger alcohol free isotonic beer available at the finish. Not sure if they will let you have 2 pints so best ensure your wife is there with a few cans waiting for you.

    7m tempo planned for later.

  • Birch - do you need some oil?! Congrats to your son; that's an awesome HM PB.
    Ian - yes, worth a shot in Frankfurt. That's impressive to improve in both of your 2nd marathons!
    GD - glad to hear you've got some rest days - take care now.
    SBD - nice carb-loading. Weight looking good. All the best now.
    Rich - good to hear from you again and sorry to hear things have been tough, but you've obviously got some talent with those PB times. I would say that higher mileage is the way to go, but not to go straight to 60/70 mpw. Perhaps take one of the P&D plans and adapt it slightly so you're not making a big jump in mileage; or tone down some of the sessions in the RW/ASICS schedule?
    Leslie - good tempo session. Have you insured the flyknits?
    TR - have a great race on Sunday.
    OO - you've got a proper size pool then! Easy on the carb-loading ;) Enjoy York. I will tell Miss GD the younger to cheer you on.
    14 steady miles this morning. I was hoping for a couple miles more, but too many interruptions and I ran out of time.

  • OO54OO54 ✭✭✭
    I'll be driving straight home after York so sadly no beer.
    Yes it's a decent public pool Gul and less than a mile from my house.
  • G-DawgG-Dawg ✭✭✭
    Interesting chat on volumes. I too have done my mara PBs on higher volume, but only averaging around 43 miles per week with three weeks over 50-odd miles.

    One thing this injury has highlighted is the importance of time on feet. I can't do any speed work at the moment, so to get round NYC, I've just concentrated on building the miles up on soft trails at slow pace.
    I've noticed on here that people like DT, OO and others do so many regular and long runs at a slower slower pace than I do yet they are much, much faster in races. Sure, they do the hard speed sessions to get the leg turnover and develop those fast twitch fibres but it's made me realise I need wider variation and to leave more in the bank to get the most out of the faster work and hopefully avoid over-stressing injuries. Lesson learned.

    I'll take all that into my own sub-3 attempt for London 2020.
  • SBD.SBD. ✭✭✭
    edited October 2019

    That's a lot of lengths OO.  Probably a bit late to worry about the weight - you could always go light on the gels!

    14 is pretty good for a mid-week run Gul.  It seems like ages since I ran anything so long!

    I had a pint of Erdinger after Brighton last year - it went down very well although when my sons initially saw me they thought I'd hit the alcohol rather early!

    The weight will drop eventually DT - just keep doing what you are doing.

    Hope the back is ok by Sunday TR.  I ran Abingdon in 2010 so it's familiar territory.  Hope you like the weather I've arranged for the day (I seem to have been very lucky with marathon day weather!).  Not sure on the initial pace but will try and say hello down on the track before the start (I'll be the one not wearing the pink magic shoes).

    Good pace on the tempo session Leslie - save the flyknits for the next race!

    With your quick times at shorter distance you shouldn't have a problem getting under 3 hours Rich.  I used P&D 55 to 70 for my first two marathons and managed 3:05 and 2:58 but have a lower 10K PB than you (37:50).  That said, there's nothing wrong with the RW plan, there's just a different balance of speed vs volume and the structure is a little different.  You just need to decide what you're most comfortable with - it's consistent injury-free training over the campaign that will get you a quick time.  For P&D - I would use Half Marathons for the longer MP runs.

    That's a great time from your son Birch.  Will he be running at London in 2020?

    An easy 5 miles with strides this morning and then back on the carb-loading for the rest of the day. Just the 6K shake-down tomorrow morning left to do.

    I seem to have avoided the cold that one of my fellow office staff members was carrying on Monday and the phantom niggles are just about under control.  Beginning to look forward to Sunday, just need to get through the next two days unscathed.

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