Over 60's training (Part 2)

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  • Mick:
    That for the heads up on Garmin connect I will look at that.That last time I did speed work I had my 310xt and it was easy to use.I shall look later and set it up for next week.
    I have started to use as an addition the  excel 97 log that was set up by David Hayes I used it many years ago but I changed computers and lost data so have found it again and most of it still works.

    Dave:

    Is that a whisky bottle next to shoes :) they look like Adidas shoes?

    My then brand new orange shoes:-)

    I found a Santa run 5k at Aberafan on 14th December so thinking i may do that for fun not sure about running in a santa suit!!
    ALF: Always a little further
    Miles makes smiles.
    Progression
  • morning all

    Mick
    you won't be thanked for taking our weather back there!
    However this morning was bright and sunny and -2C. Made such a difference to being out there
    Your spreadsheet knows no bounds.......................

    Dave
    but had you replaced the laces?  if so, that brings us to the deep philosophical "Trigger's Broom" question :)

    Below are the soles of my last 1,000 mile shoes


    just mid sole wear

    Welshpoppy
    finding a new route is always fun!
    I normally run in the same direction on most of my routes as I like to start off uphill but it surprises me to find how different they feel and look when run in the reverse direction.
    Nice clean shoes there - what model are they ?
    They are not as bright as my box fresh canary yellow Adizeros which I nearly wore this morning but it was still too filthy underfoot to risk their pristine purity!

    4 miles this morning in 39:49 (9:57m/m) avHR 128 and a max of 138 as the cold sunshine put a slight spring in my step.
    Anything was better than yesterday when I struggled to put one foot in front of another and resorted to run/walking for 2 miles just to get round :(


  • BirchBirch ✭✭✭
    edited November 2019
    Poppy/TS - well observed !!   yes, that is a mini-bottle (wine, though - I'm not a spirit drinker) - this for me, and new, bright yellow laces for the newly retired shoes (correct - adidas) , was our joint reward for doing 1,000 miles together :)     . . .    had to "google" Trigger's broom, TS - sad to say I hadn't a clue what it meant !  
     
    shoes - what a coincidence, Poppy - recently took delivery of the very same model/colour, as a gift for my son - his birthday is next week. 
     
    routes - on 1st May 1997, there was a General Election, which returned a Labour government, who ended 18 years of exile with a landslide victory.
    That evening, my pal & I decided to visit each of the (then 6) Sheffield constituencies. My diary records "election run - 10 miles easy with xxx - 75 mins" . 
    I've decided to resurrect the run on Dec 12th - its now 5 constituencies,  but my location, and the intervening years, means the route is now 12 to 12.5 ish, and will take a lot more than 75 mins !!!    
     
    Dave
  • Dave:
    Triggers broom if memory is correct he was very proud of his broom he said he had it for  20 years old this same broom, only to later be revealed he had 10 new handles and 10 new heads so not the same broom at all.
    I hope your son likes them I love them they are so bright and cheery and were like a old pair straight out of box.I tried to get another pair but could not get them had to have a grey pair.

    I like you idea for your election run and I hope it is just as successful :)

    Torque:
    The shoes were before any running I think I am on 149 miles in them :) They are  Adidas Boston Boost I love them so comfy to run in.
    I did laugh that you are keeping the canary yellow shoes in the box for a less muddy day.
    That sounds like a good run this morning well done :)


    7.60 miles for me this morning 2 degrees same  run from home to Rugby ground  but instead of one lap of the course I did two.I hate lapped courses so did me good ,similar pace to yesterday.It would be good if I can get out early enough for hilly 8-10 miles tomorrow but the way I am still needing 10hrs sleep I doubt it.But fatigue is getting better  :)

    Poppy

    ALF: Always a little further
    Miles makes smiles.
    Progression
  • Dave
    progress eh in elections? Inflation, inflation, inflation in both distance and time ................ :)

    Welshpoppy
    7.60 miles when feeling fatigued is very good indeed - just don't push too hard, too soon.

    The "Trigger's Broom" thing is actually a philosophical problem going back to ancient Greek times.  Just to make your fatigue worse read this  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus     :)

    Enjoy...............
  • Decent day out at LFOM, not least in the pub afterwards! Surprised myself with under 23:10. Could certainly have run the last km harder but not risking injury pushing too hard. Most importantly the train back north is on time.
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • BirchBirch ✭✭✭
    5.5 miles this afternoon - returned to find The Ship of Theseus . .  now require one of those mini-bottles we referred earlier !  
     
    good outings this morn, TS & Poppy - and splendid work there, alehouse - back to form nicely !!  
     
    Dave
  • Birch: still close to 2 minutes down on where I hoped to be given the way I was running in July! 
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • Mick6Mick6 ✭✭✭
    TS,
    It would really be a betrayal of my nerdy soul to use a spreadsheet.
    Interesting wear on your left shoe. I would hazard a guess from the wear on the outside rear and front that your left knee is turning out as you land.

    Alehouse,
    Nothing wrong with a 23:10 for a wrinkly.

    A really enjoyable 7k along the trails for me. Only -2c with sunshine thrown in as a bonus.

    In my early 60s I decided to drop my 6 days a week running for 5 + a gym day. Mainly because my legs were complaining.
    Over the last 6 months I have noticed a loss of muscle mass in my upper body and possible some strength more recently.
    I read an article recently that suggested that men have an accelerated muscle loss as they approach 75.
    Although I am very comfortable with running 5 days a week I think it may be time to add another gym session. I think I would find it too much to do a double workout so I would drop to running 4 days a week and try and up the quality.
    I think my overall muscle tone and flexibility is what enables me to run comfortably and if I lost that my running would rapidly deteriorate.
    I would value any opinion.

    Mick
  • Ale:
     BUT it is progress never mind where you were this is now and you have been through the mill with set backs so be happy :)

    Dave:

    How lucky to have a  mini bottle ready for you :)

    Torque:

    Thanks for link and more reading :)

    Mick:

    Great run yesterday and to have sunshine you lucky thing :)
    I will let the more experienced among us answer your question asI do no gym sessions and just run:-)


    Well I was up and out on hilly route first time since Tuesday and ran 8.1 hilly miles last time I ran this was 2nd November! slow and hr low for the hills.1 degree and very windy but happy with that giving me 46 .63 miles for the week and 135.5 miles for November. :)

    ALF: Always a little further
    Miles makes smiles.
    Progression
  • BirchBirch ✭✭✭
    alehouse - but still, after your "issues" - that is a decent effort . . .   
     
    Mick - although I've had a gym membership (expired a month ago - need (intend) to renew) , can't really advise, as just tended to do light weight upper body stuff - but, despite the running, I feel leg strength declining - have to use hand on bedside chest to lever myself up from my futon, which is just a few inches from the floor - used to be able to swing legs out and stand up !  
     
    Poppy - well done on the hilly 8 - great work !!  good week/month totals, too . . . .   
     
    sounds odd, with my comments above re leg strength, but 15 miles this morning (5 to parkrun, 7 after) . knees stiff last few miles, but accomplished with minimal fuss.  
    112 for the month.   Marshalling at my club's 10K tomorrow.
     
    Dave
  • Mick6Mick6 ✭✭✭
    edited November 2019
    Dave,
    Standing up from a full squat, that is bum on heels, is a mandatory measure of muscle tone, along with pressing your body weight. The latter is where I am feeling it. Nothing wrong with your endurance.

    WP,
    I like that 46.63 miles, so precise, appeals to the engineer in me.

    I have a friend who is waiting for a heart operation and is limited to walking on the treadmill so I kept him company even though it was a glorious day outside. I did walk my dog 3.5k around the beaver pond. No beavers to be seen only three different sorts of squirrels and a couple of chipmunks, which had my dog racing among the leaves and between the trees.

    09:12 AM Saturday, November 30, 2019
    Treadmill, felt good no issues

    Total Non-moving Time = 0.0 secs
    Run Duration = 31:19,  Run Length = 5.13 Kms or 3.19 Miles
    Average Run Pace = 06:06 per Km or 09:49 per Mile, Age grade =  58.6 %
    Average Run WHR = 73.8 %,  Max Run WHR = 87.4 %

    Average Run Cadence = 87.6, Average stride length = 0.94 m

      Lap  Duration   Kms      Miles    Per Km    Per Mile    AWHR     MWHR  Cadence  Slength(m)
    #01     06:16     1.0        0.6      06:16      10:05      58.5%     65.2%      88.0       0.91
    #02     06:05     1.0        0.6      06:05      09:47      69.6%     73.3%      88.0       0.93
    #03     06:04     1.0        0.6      06:04      09:46      74.8%     79.3%      88.0       0.94
    #04     06:02     1.0        0.6      06:02      09:43      80.0%     82.2%      87.0       0.95
    #05     06:01     1.0        0.6      06:01      09:41      84.4%     87.4%      87.0       0.96
    #06     00:51     0.1        0.1      06:21      10:14      86.7%     87.4%      87.0       0.90


    As usual I started to overheat and my HR climbed, but I felt really comfortable.
    Mick


  • alehouse
    good going on the LFOTH - excellent time.
    was it the normal course or the Xmas one?

    dave
    that was a thick sandwich run!! Great mileage for the day - and month.  what was you parkrun time as the meat in that sandwich?
    Re Ship of Theseus - is my body the same body or is it now someone else's given how much some parts have changed :)?

    Welshpoppy
    I will ask questions later on your homework!
    very impressive weekly and monthly mileage - you and Dave are streets ahead in those fields

    Mick
    good spot!  Those shoes were when my right leg/ankle was not performing properly and the left leg was compensating to keep me stable
    Apologies for my insult :)
    Nice run there and a full, nerdy presentation of the details :)  However is your stride cadence correct at 87.6? should it not be 187??

    Just to show that I can be as nerdy here are the details of my record breaking run this morning -7.05 miles in 71:02 (10:04m/m) with av HR 126 (WHR 64%) and maxHR 139 (69% WHR)

    10:19  119  128
    09:42  123  130
    09:47  126  133
    10:06  128  133
    10:18  128  136
    10:12  128  136
    10:08  133  139
    00:19  135  138

    av run cadence 179 and av stride length 0.89m

    no overheating on a bright, frosty morning that left the pavements slippy underfoot in places
    Longest run of the year....................... FWIW!

    More later on muscular degeneration!
  • BirchBirch ✭✭✭
    good work on the treadmill, Mick - doesn't take much to overheat on those things  . . .
     
    regardless of the "fwiw" qualifier, TS - you must be pleased with the run ?  
     my parkrun section was 26:30, TS - roughly 80% effort, maybe?  rest of run was 10min mile pace 
     
    great morning at the 10K - the superb (and not simply in athletic terms) Eilish McColgan set a new  Female course record of 31:48  
     
    4.5 for me running to and from my marshall station;  40 for the week - the highest since July. 
     
    Dave
  • Mick6Mick6 ✭✭✭
    Dave,
    Great mileage, I only wish.

    TS,
    The garmin only records the cadence for one arm, hence the low number. Just double it to get the cadence for both legs assuming that I don't stop one arm for any reason, like getting my water bottle.
    So my avg cadence was 175.2.
    The stride length is of greater interest. This was an easy pace for me despite the HR(too hot) but my stride length was short as is yours.
    We are both over 6 feet and as youngsters our stride length would be more like 1.4m!!
    That loss of stride accounts for our loss of speed.

    Mick
  • Blimey so much to catch up on :)

    Dave: Great mileage for the month and amazing 15 miles! you are coming along at a fast rate of progress you must be pleased?

    Mick:
    I am glad you like my precise mileage  if I run it I have to log it :)

    Torque:

    That really is impressive miles today-YAYI really hope you are on an upward turn :) Interesting with stride length and cadence.

    Dave:

    I like Eilish so seems so honest and open and has had an amazing year I am so glad she had such a good run.
    Great work on your weekly mileage-yay :)
    Did the youngster's run?

    Mick:

    Interesting loss of stride length with loss of speed as we age.Well done on treadmill run.


    Well on very limited sleep maybe 4 hours and I need 8-10 hours I went out knowing it would be a short run so off to Rugby club and 4.5 miles but slippery in places so took it easy.Av pace 10.39, av HR 141 ,cadence 164 and stride 0.92m.

    Poppy.
    ALF: Always a little further
    Miles makes smiles.
    Progression
  • BirchBirch ✭✭✭
    Poppy - thanks, my son ran - he was 14th in 32:31.  My daughter jogged the parkrun with me yesterday (she's cautiously coming back from a niggle), which was lovely for me .  
    Eilish - yes - that's 2 years on a row she's been here - so friendly and understated - happily mingles & chats post-race . . .    
     
    have a good running week, all 
     
    Dave
  • BirchBirch ✭✭✭
    correction - Eilish - 3rd  year at our race  . .
  • BirchBirch ✭✭✭
    Image may contain 4 people people smiling people standing  
    Eilish with her fellow Olympian, Michael Rimmer , with the main men from our organising committee - 
  • Well done on the longer run,TS! I'm not quite ready for that far but hopefully getting there. My longest run of the year was 12.12k back in June (around 7.5 miles): suspect that will remain as the longest. 

    Friday's race was the two lap course which for some reason is now run clockwise. Am sure it is uphill all the way round in that direction! Winter Wonderland was in the way of the one lapper. Friday was 23:06; February's edition was 23:00, so getting back to where I was 9 months ago, but some way off the summer's 21:52. There's always next year. 

    Whilst I was in Hyde Park I did wonder how Ray was getting on, then Graham popped into my thoughts: hoe they are both ok!

    Nice photo of my neighbours, Birch! They live just over a mile away but our paths often cross when out running next to the river. 

    Over the last few years I have increasingly moved towards a stretch and strengthening routine, largely based on Pilates. Should have done this years ago! On my 40th birthday a clubmate who is about 20 years my senior told me to keep strength, speed and suppleness going. I didn't listen but am sure that he was right. I use little of the equipment in the uni's fancily named "fitness suite" (they don't like it being referred to as a gym!). I use the leg press for single static leg press "holds" at around 1.5 times bodyweight with the leg both straight and bent to stretch the Achilles; I use the leg extension machine to strengthen the quads, otherwise most of the exercises are without equipment or I use resistance bands, with occasional use of the Swiss ball, spiky ball, or a deflated ball. The focus is very much on glutes and hamstrings, using light weights on occasion; having fractured my back twice in eighteen months I find work on my stomach or back a little difficult. A bit of a vicious circle, as with many things: if I do work these areas then I suffer for a few days; if I don't do the exercises they will never get stronger!
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • Mick6Mick6 ✭✭✭
    Alehouse,
    Interesting routine. I avoid doing heavy stuff on the legs for the reason you stated. I do lots with resistance bands on the legs such as squats, one legged squats, monster walks, bridges etc and that helps a lot.
    I really find the whole notion of a fractured back totally scary.
    How often per week do you do a resistance training routine?

    Just to quantify my stride length and cad changes with age I created the follow chart. It shows my best run at each age based on AG%



    Despite putting a lot of effort to maintain my cadence it has still declined but only a little. As you can see a 16% decline in stride length. This is where my wheels have fallen off.
    Mick
  • Mick, I do at least two one hour sessions a week, and usually two 30-40 minute sessions. Depends a bit on whether I am working, the weather, and of course how much running I am doing. More gym than running at present but will gradually be increasing the latter. 
    I will also be increasing my use of the alter-g (anti gravity treadmill) to offload weight whilst running hard!
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • Dave: Great photo of both Eilish and Michael and a lovely orange top forthe race organisers.
    Well done on Son's placing and to enjoy running with daughter at parkrun.

    Well we do not rise about 0 till 11am so that is when I will attempt a run as -6 at the moment and looks pretty nasty out there for falls.

    Be safe out there today.
    ALF: Always a little further
    Miles makes smiles.
    Progression
  • BirchBirch ✭✭✭
    real food for thought, alehouse/Mick - I shouldn't be neglecting the "strength/stretching" - as alehouse says, "routine" is the key word - not just here and there, which is what I tend to do  . . .    
     
    Poppy - if you look closely at those tops, they are early editions of the 2020 shirt - maybe alehouse will fancy nipping over the Pennines to compete :)     
    hope you get out there later on (its actually fair bit warmer here than Sat & Sun morns) 

    Cleaning(indoors) and sweeping(outdoors) on my agenda before a steady jaunt later
     
    Dave
  • Dave
    excellent run by your son and nice to have your daughter at your side for the parkrun.
    Very good of Eilish to turn out so regularly for a local race. You don't often see UK runners turn out nowadays - they are normally away doing warm weather training!

    Mick
    on stride length.
     Overstriding is worse than a short stride as it actively reduces speed and promotes injury. But you are right that our stride lengths will have declined and the reason behind that is a reduction in power in the muscles. Basically our stride length is a product of the amount of push off strength our body can muster each time the foot goes through that phase until the next contact with the ground.  I noticed recently when coming to a large puddle across the path that I couldn't clear it with a jump because my muscle strength has declined so much

    Now why has it declined?  Ageing effect obviously despite training. 

    The typical response is well summed up in this paper

    https://eurapa.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1007/s11556-008-0029-2
    - more reading I'm afraid!

    However there is another school of thought developing.  All cells in the body depend upon the DNA imprinted in the cells for reproduction, mitochondria in the muscles included.  As we age the DNA spiral starts to fragment so it isn't as efficient as reproducing cells and sometimes it just doesn't do it at all.  Thus it becomes more difficult for muscular regeneration as the "blueprint" is no longer a clear copy and this "blurring" increases with time.  
    However it would still appear that well trained masters athletes will degenerate more slowly than sedentary persons at any age so that is one bright spark  :)

    Great eh?!

    Like Alehouse I have a back problem so I limit strength training quite considerably - mainly static processes such as planks, flexor extensions, push ups etc relying on body weight resistance although I do a few one legged strengthening moves as well - they are getting more difficult - a bit like Dave getting off the bed!

    Anyway despite all that I managed to get out this morning into another dry, crisp, sunny dawn and do 4 miles in 40:26 (10:05m/m) with avHR126 and a max of 141 as I tried to up the pace over the last (short!) hill 

    Compared to where I was at the bottom of the trough of despair, yes I am pleased with the improvement in distance on steady aerobic effort but whether it ever translates into improved pace remains to be seen..........
  • Dave:

    Sounds like a domestic day for you yesterday:-) I hope you made it out yesterday? I like the tops and missed that they were 2020 if only I was nearer.....

    Torque:

    Well done on getting out and running yesterday.

    It was too slippery here so the choice was treadmill or nothing and after a morning of domestics mostly cooking I opted for rest day although got on treadmill for a mile that was way too much as I hate the thing and need to build up on treadmill.But today is 2 degrees so back to normal temps -yay.

    Poppy
    ALF: Always a little further
    Miles makes smiles.
    Progression
  • BirchBirch ✭✭✭
    like Poppy, I eventually decided on a rest day yesterday (did some squats (2-legged) , hamstring stretches, clams) -  
     
    nice dry, sunny run, TS - which is how mine turned out today - had intended going to the club session this evening, but pal messaged asking if I fancied a lunchtime outing (she was working from home) - so 2.5 there, 5 miles & quick coffee with chum, 2.5 back ;
    a pleasing 10 in the diary.  
     
    Dave
  • Mick6Mick6 ✭✭✭
    TS,
    Thanks for the article, very extensive.
    The correlation between VO2max and muscle loss was interesting. Also that running does little to offset muscle loss. It is a little worrying that after 70 muscle loss becomes exponential which seems to reflect my experience.
    My objective is not to run faster but just to keep running for as long as possible.
    I have decided to switch to two days of resistance training a week and 4 days of running with one day of rest. I will do this for the winter and review it again in the spring.
    I have a running partner in his mid 60s who does resistance training on the days that he runs. He is strong and is still running in the low 20s for 5k and does not seem to be slowing as fast as I did at his age. He will be interesting to watch over the next few years.
    Your article suggested that it was better to do resistance training prior to running and not the other way around as running seems to negate the impact of resistance training. I am not sure I can handle both and walking my dog for 3 or 4 km in a single day.

    Poppy,
    I find running on the treadmill much more manageable at the gym rather than at home. There is much more to distract me so I don't think about how boring it is to stare at a wall. Treadmills do take a bit of getting use to and they do change your gait so you need to be careful.

    I enjoyed my resistance training day at the gym and did a full range of stuff. Will be back at it on Friday so running planned for tomorrow and Thursday assuming the weather cooperates. No accumulated snow as yet but it is getting colder over night, -7c tonight is forecasted.

    Mick
  • Dave:

    Well done on your run 10 miles is pretty impressive :)

    Mick:

    You are right I just hate the darn think and I will do alternate training on slippery days.So will do kettle bell work out,squats, etc maybe even arm work with weights.

    -7 overnight sounds very cold to me.....

    I managed 4.5 miles yesterday planned more but legs said no so I listened to them.Today it  is 1-2 degrees so hoping to go out and run the hills.
    ALF: Always a little further
    Miles makes smiles.
    Progression
  • BirchBirch ✭✭✭
    edited December 2019
    ps - Poppy - get yourself up here next year - 06/12/2020  :) 
       
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