Moraghan Training - Stevie G



  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    SG - its tougher than it seems. That moz session sounds tough, i cant hit hmp in training for extended periods so i couldn't do that run.
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭
    edited January 19

    All these sort of runs do the similar thing of making you work harder later on, to replicate that later race fatigue.

    But for my max distance, HM, the 10milers I did with 7-8miles at "steady" (or MP & 10%) in my base period were probably similar enough. Could add a few miles at the front, but those are the easier miles so maybe not much benefit.

    I think the key is 5 or 6 solid 15mile or so runs, and then making sure to put in some tempos, but also the faster work.

    I'll see what happens with ending long runs with structured stuff, as 2 years ago I put a good half in on the above approach alone really, not even with ramping the longuns up.

    It depends how you define extended periods in terms of HMP.

    Moz swore by a peaking session of 3x2miles at HMP 10 days out from the target half, and then a 3x1mile HMP the Tuesday of the race.

    But this would generally follow a block of tempos, where you ramp up over a couple of months, from the sort of session I did 2 weeks ago, 6miles at 6.10, to chucking some HM sections in, before it eventually becomes reps (3x2)

  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    SG - you know what you're doing, im just throwing in the idea as way of the odd change. Agreed re the tempos for hm. Ive got worthing in 3 wks, but its massively weather (esp wind) dependent. 
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    I certainly rely on the Moz structure where I can.

    But, there's always room for different stuff, and over the years of this thread I've certainly mixed things up.

    Some stuff has been disastrous - like doing that club 20miler, and then a 5k time trial 2 days later...that was stupid :)

    Hope you get decent weather. The last thing you want is some really windy first 2mile slog and questioning why you're there!

  • PeteMPeteM ✭✭✭
    Lots of very impressive training going on;

    TR: a casual 20 thrown in there and MP +only 10% sounds fast to me at this stage of your preps,
    SG: big miles there at a decent lick, augurs well for your racing whenever that resumes
    Bus: usual high mileage combined with tough terrain
    Jooligan: usual crazy miles with most types of running in the mix (often all in the same day :) );  Muddy: like your style of an easy (for you!) parkrun then fast section immediately afterwards 
    SC: usual stringing out 800 reps on hard terrain faster than many of us can run 1 track 800 :)

    Back to the old familiar 5k, 10k weekend race double for me. Rushmoor parkrun on Saturday with a manic 740 runners despite it starting in sub freezing temps. Attendance about double what it was this time last year and no signs of numbers going down yet when you might think NY resolutions would be wearing off! Course is a mixture of grass, hard packed gravel, road and canalside paths so hard to judge footwear. Went for road shoes which was probably just about the right call. Interesting element this week was they offered a choice of routes near the top turn; go for more road which is obvs a faster surface but adds about 50 metres a lap, or grass which was boggy and icy in places. Never been in an event where the marshals are shouting out two distinct routes and saying take your choice! Went for the road route but overall prob nothing in it. Ended 15th in 19'28 for my 5.1k route, so pretty much as expected there. 

    Yesterday was Slough 10k over at Black Park. A fairly low key event and certainly a lot fewer runners than the parkrun, even adding in those (like my daughter) running the simultaneous 5k. Lovely scenic course on another icy morning and all off road with some very heavy patches. Ended up in a prolonged battle for 5th being neck and neck with another guy all the way from 3k to 9.5k where (surpisingly) I managed to kick on a bit and see him off. So ended 5th in 39'54 which doesn't sound much of a time, but happy enough with that for an off roader with no VF boost! Not 1st v50 though as a Reading guy who has been going brilliantly well in all the XC's turned up to nab that prize. At least I was only about 30 secs behind him this time, compared to over 2 mins in the recent XC's (mostly a reflection of my relatively crap performances on anything hilly).

    Daughter was 3rd lady (and 8th overall) in the 5k. She ran very well in the conditions but those high placing with a time of just on 25 mins show the depth of quality in the 5k field wasn't huge ;) Still trying to find out if she won a prize for her 3rd, as we never even considered it at the time and left once we knew I was not 1st v50. Hopefully she won some wine I can help her out with ;)  
  • StevieWhStevieWh ✭✭✭
    Great racing Pete, sounds a good time to me on an offroad course!

    SG - You run your long runs at a decent pace anyway so I don't think the P&D style would be much of a difference

    Did 8 x 1k on Friday off 60s recovery which went really well (Not as fast as Simon though!). Aiming for 10k pace so wanted 3.45 per rep, really happy for it to come out as
    3.40/3.45/3.46/3.46/3.45/3.46/3.40/3.42. Followed that up with 15m yesterday at 7.55 average, one of those runs where you feel like you could go forever. Feel like the fitness is coming back to me.

    Down in High Wycombe on Wednesday for V02Max and Threshold testing which I was brought for my birthday last year. Looking forward to seeing the results and putting them into my training.

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭
    Good family turnout Pete.

    The Big Wyc SW, The town of dreams (literally and metaphorically!), home to forum leg ends (yes, two words) like myself, Big Phil and Bus (though he might argue his posh village is outside Wycombe ;) )
    Enjoy your time in our incredible town :)
  • Nice weekends work there Pete. That improvement vs. the V50 guy is definitely positive IMO. Hope you track down that bottle of wine. 

    Decent session Muddy - which one is your local?

    SW - Great pacing on those km reps. You got any early year races in the diary?

    SG - things trending in the right direction there mate.

    Underwhelming run in York on Saturday. Felt pretty fresh in the warm-up, and after a 17:42 on NYD when I felt awful throughout, I thought a 17:15 could be on the cards.

    Not even close. Logged a 3:25 first km, with 3 guys already gone up the road and me now in no-mans land in 4th. Ground was a bit icy/slippy and I did feel like I was losing a bit of traction with every step, but it wasn't an ice-rink. 

    From here I was just consistent but just couldn't get up to top speed (3:35, 3:37, 3:36, 3:32), ending up with an 18:02 - got passed in the last km by some other chap as well. It's a fast course if conditions are good (which they were, except for a bit of ice).

    I guess I probably need to accept I might not get back to previous 5km levels if I'm only running 3 times a week (none of them sessions) and biking/swimming 6 times a week instead. Stupid triathlon. 

    Followed up with 90 mins along the river sunday morning. Rather frustratingly, Katie thinks her foot might be broken again. It's never-ending.. 
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭
    Wrong time of year for a 5k smashfest Joe - it'll come in a few months
    Bad news on Katie's foot. Had it recovered, and it's re-occurred? Or was it still in process, but a bit of effort on it was ok? And one foot or two, as it was both feet wasn't it?
  • StevieWhStevieWh ✭✭✭
    SG - I know HW quite well, my brother went to uni there and the company I used to work for had a base at the airfield. Been a few years though!

    Joe - I never seem to be able to hit top gear in parkrun, especially if I'm in no mans land like you were. 18.02 is still a quality time with that training. Ive got the last XC fixture next month and then Surrey Half in March before London Marathon.
  • StevieWhStevieWh ✭✭✭
    P.s Sorry to hear about Katie Joe. Is there anything she can do to help protect the foot? E.g form changes or strengthening other areas?
  • I think it was recovering, but all pain had gone, so she'd been trying to ease back but it's so hard to know how much to do and when. There other foot had ligament inflammation, which is still painful, just not as bad as a break. 

    SW - I'll be at the Surrey half - doing the 1:30 pacing so will be good to say hello before you charge off. 
  • SCoombes2SCoombes2 ✭✭✭

    Ah that's a bugger Joe - It's hard to know when to come back with an injury like that. I'm sure your fitness will return. Good sessions Muddy, Bus and TR and SG, really promising long run there. Nice 8 X 1K SW - great session isn't it!!

    Good report Pete, definitely getting there now.

    Football (I think) on Saturday, up in Norwich to see our relegation virtually confirmed. Decent day on the beer though. Steady hilly 7 miler up to Dunstable Downs Sunday afternoon and a run round for 3 miles with the kid..possibly our first training run together..aaahhhh ;)

    Doing my sessions Monday/Weds this week because of the southerns on Saturday. On a schedule now for the British masters 1500m indoor early March. Today was 4 x 2k off 1 minute. Did them in Regents pk, usual place so it's 1k slightly up and 1k slightly down (in total - 2 laps). Came out with 6.16, 6.14,6.14,6.14. Bit surprised especially with the short recoveries. Definitely the nice weather and less miles yesterday helped.

  • StevieWhStevieWh ✭✭✭
    See you there then Joe! 

    SC - Yes its a great session, Ive got 10 x k on the plan next week but with half at HMP so actually an easier session. That's an excellent session with those paces on short recovery. As a Villa fan Bournemouth's freefall is about the only thing giving me hope at the moment! Hopefully we both stay up
  • Good parkrun Joe, I was on an icy surface too. It makes a big difference. I ran 5k splits in my half 1 min  faster than I ran parkrun for the same effort.  My local-ish one is Cannon Hill but it's almost as quick to get to Walsall too. Sorry Katie is still suffering, that's rough.

    I did 90 mins easy effort, hilly and muddy on Sunday, Bus. It was at a really easy effort and I covered about 10 miles to your 15. Optical doesn’t work for me, I’m either too pale or too bony or too hairy or too cold at the periphery for them to work. Amazon do some cheapo chest straps that work well with Garmin and other watches. 

    Another good long run StevieG. I will be getting back to those for the marathon soon-ish.

    Jooligan - Oh my word a triple day ! :hushed:
    TR - Good 20 miles. I throw in 3 miles at marathon effort occasionally but that just reduces the average pace on the long run overall as it puts a bit of tiredness into me for the remainder of the run. I think for this marathon campaign I'm just going to focus on the time on feet. It's the part I find hardest about the training - being out for 2hr 30. I recall feeling more and more drained of energy and hungry. So maybe will take snacks too.

    StevieWh - good 8 x 1k session from where I'm standing. Mine come out around marathon pace if I'm lucky ! It's that stop start thing. Tempos all the way for me.

    Pete - that's a really good 10k. Still impressed you can do that after a decent 5k too. I saw a couple in my Strava feed that ran sub 75 halves at the weekend running sub 17 parkruns the day before :confounded:

    ps. I've stuck a summary of the last training block before the Brass Monkey on the Overdone It? thread. 
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭
    Simon - you're only 1 win from the drop zone, not over just yet.
    Surprised to see Brighton so low, my perception wast they were doing much better.

    This is where as a Wycombe and United fan I have a little bit more balance than most United fans. I struggle to see 5th or 6th in the country as the "disaster" others do, as I've been there when Wycombe narrowly scraped onto our league status! Going down, could easily have seen us go out of business, so we actually came close to disaster!
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    Jools - I did a triple day once in an 80mile week, my highest ever.

    The 3rd run was a "social" run with Marlow, that was basically super slow, so it sort of worked, if not attracting Moz's that is totally pointless ire :)

    Scouring FB, every so often you see someone you know make a comment here and there.

    I saw a well known local "character" arguing with a RW piece about fuelling, saying he did a HM and 20mile pb with no food on the day, just a couple of drinks.

    Now, I've heard of fasted runs, and trying to train yourself on no fuel, etc, all that stuff, and it's definitely not for me.

    But racing off no food?! Seems a totally ridiculous thing to do!

  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    edited January 20
    Nice Pete, good to see some progress. Any tightness when racing?

    Good to see stevie wh getting back to it.

    Joe - pisser for katie

    Simon - thats a tough session.

    Muddy - i used to be in the school of doing 20s fuelled by fresh air and no breakfast, but now i take a gel or 2 or some luco, finish them freaher and recover quicker. Fuel or no fuel all seems a bit of a fashion thing.
  • SCoombes2SCoombes2 ✭✭✭
    edited January 21

    Quite a few of the old school didn't have breakfast. Like our coach - worked for him, he went out and set the world half marathon record off it. That's just showing off :)

    SG - We're obviously quite cool about going down tbh, remembering where we came from. Possibly back to Wycombe and the White Horse LOL. It's just who might join us...going to be interesting..

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭
    Norwich for certain, I still think Brighton and Burnley can have a say in it. While oddly I think Villa will stay up, dependent almost entirely on Grealish remaining in form.

    ps old school is exactly that though isn't it, old, discredited due to advances in knowledge.
    I doubt any pros don't eat on the day now. And did your coach really not eat on the day of a world record? Or just in training? 
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭
    Back to tempos today then.
    I've done a few of the 6mile MP type fare, so wanted to develop that a bit.

    Moz used to do a few sessions like 40mins alternating HMP and MP, or 3mins tempo and MP, but those are pretty full on!

    Therefore, went for a 40min continuous of 3mins HMP, 3mins top end easy.  (7 sections of HMP, and the last easy section a mere minute)

    A couple of windy parts in the HM around Dorney, but generally a good workout.
  • HA77HA77 ✭✭✭
    Delurking to weigh in here. I'm with SC's coach. Unless it's a marathon I tend to eat very little. Depends on the start time but I'd prefer to feel empty than full and I'd prefer to sleep in than get up really early to eat. Before Reading HM I just had a cup of tea. I've never felt like I've run out of energy during a race. 
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭
    I sometimes feel hungry on the start line, even with eating toast and weetabix on the day.

    3hours before the start, and the nerves etc no doubt lead to most of it "disappearing" pre start.

    But when we all know fuelling is super key, it seems mad to purposely enter a tough effort without anything on board.
  • HA77HA77 ✭✭✭
    If you've eaten well the day before you should have plenty on board to get through a half marathon race. From what I've read, which is similar to my experience, glycogen depletion is not really an issue over a half marathon. Old school ideas often get replaced by new ideas with very little, or no evidence, much like TR suggests - it's a bit of a fashion thing.
  • Yeah races are very different to training HA77. I think you can manage them off a lot less beforehand. Bit of taper helps tops up the glycogen stores with the normal-ish training appetite still in operation.

    The weekday marathon mileage requirements can leave me half empty, then a big long run at the end of the week seems to leave me hollow. I eat lots, ordinarily but it seems to need a rest day full of scoffing to top me up again. On occasion I've taken a gel or two out with me on a long run, or a couple of quid for a drink, chiefly to practice eating/drinking while running, but I don't fuel during a long run routinely. I think there's a case to be made that running depleted stimulates more glycogen storage and so is essential.

    This article seems to sum it all up with facts and stuff:

    Table 2 especially.
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭
    edited January 21
    Also an "each to their own" thing.

    Not something I'll test any time soon!

    No matter how much I eat the day before, I'd still wake up needing some food pre race. And even for people no eating doesn't "hurt" as such, it surely can't help can it. As the adrenaline will stop you having too much in the guts beforehand anyway!
  • YnnecYnnec ✭✭✭
    Stevie G said:
    Also an "each to their own" thing.
    Some like to snaffle a tuna bagel on the start line :D
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭
    Or chug a tonne load of water, and spend 10mins hosing lawns on route.
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭
    Ynnec said:
    Stevie G said:
    Also an "each to their own" thing.
    Some like to snaffle a tuna bagel on the start line :D
    And in fairness, if we ignore the 100 incidents that was mentioned, he only mentioned it "once"
  • I've read a fair bit on this also and I'm a +1 for believing not much fuel is required actually on the morning. 

    I do all morning training (swim/bike/run) first thing without eating, regardless of intensity. That includes 20+ mile long runs or 3/4 hour bike rides.

    Races are slightly different, as I've not been bold enough to not take something on board a few hours beforehand, but thinking aloud, I really don't think it'd do me any negative benefit. 

    Marathon PB was done off just water - no gels or anything and just a small bowl of porridge a few hours before. 
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