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PS Muddy - is that the full table or does it have Nike Lunaracer +3 on there?
I'd love to be able to adjust my 'cheat time' back to some previous reality to see where my fitness lies.
PPS Any news on how many miles racing the benefit lasts for?
Some excellent reasoning, Muddy!
As you say, the go to argument is 'just train harder' but we all know that often training harder doesn't lead to progress as it tips you into over training, or it simply isn't possible. I don't see where/how I could train harder/more etc.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/12/13/upshot/nike-vaporfly-next-percent-shoe-estimates.html
Are yours not the Nike LunarGlide from the table ? This analysis is based on marathons ... so maybe the LunarRacer didn't figure as a marathon shoe ?
I think the performance benefit is still there but much more marginal, I was doing 5k mp sections before Christmas alternating my Zoom Pegasus Turbo with the old Vaporfly. I got around 19 mins in the Pegs vs 18.45-ish in the bashed up Vaporfly.
Where are you buying them from?
Is there much ankle support?
Register on Nike Run Club with a birthday in March - you get 25% discount in your birthday month, and you can buy via the Nike app/website. I got my half price pair via my Vitality insurance which gives you 50% off a pair of shoes once a year but they are no longer being sold by other retailers as far as I can see.
ps The sole on the Vaporfly is really thin and I use Shoe Goo to patch it up as I generate wear just round the outer edges.
I have used my 25% code the last 2 years to buy vaporfly/next %.
I still use my very first pair to do my tempos in. They are falling apart in places and have a good 1k miles on them but they still offer more (ie less of a battering) than a pair of zoom streaks or similar.
Muddy, Sundays forecast in Wrexham now looks horrific. If that doesn't change by weekend I am not wasting my time.
Thanks both - I had no idea these shoes had been out there for so long - I suppose I've been off the scene for nearly 3 years. I'll look into signing up to Nike Run Club.
What is the sizing like?
Bonus time is easiest for me spending a furniture sized amount of money on a pair of running shoes but I'm thinking maybe my real birthday month, May, might be about the time that I've progressed a bit and the times start to actually matter.
Cheers
Skinny I found the Lunaracer in some previous analysis before the Next% came out:
DT - I wouldn't be making a 4 mile round trip to run a HM in a gale either.
Thanks Muddy - interestingly my two shoes are Brooks Ghost that I've trained in for years and my current racing shoes are Luna Racer +3 that I've raced in for 2016 onwards (not that much 2017 onwards obviously).
The comparison on the graph suggest that my Ghosts are only marginally slower than my LunaRacers - maybe 0.5% - about 2 seconds a mile maybe. I would say it feels like I gain more than that.
If I go back to your more recent graph though it has the Ghost at 2% slower than the line which would be more like a 2.75% gain for the LunaRacers or 10 to 11 secs a mile. I could accept that as true.
If this is the case then all the graphs suggest I can expect a similar 10 to 11 second boost by wearing the Nike Vaporfly over the LunaRacers which would give me almost instant competitiveness again.
This whole hoo-ha has really shed light as to how much variation there is in shoes, even when all the marketing is suggesting better performance there's not always evidence around that. Also we can see there is substantial individual variation in the effect of switching a shoe by the size of the error bars, so it's by no means a guarantee. I would guess if you heel strike the Vaporfly/Next% won't be that effective.
In May the next model - the Alphafly will be available with a reputed 8% gain on the Zoom Streaks. Fingers crossed for the annual bonus !
I don't think those shoes would work for over-pronators so I'm obviously doomed to be 4% worse than everyone else for ever. I did enjoy racing in my Brooks Asteria though which are a lot lighter than my trainers.
Hit an irritating 49 mile week last week. But I'm counting it as at least 50 as I did a hungover 20 miler in Storm Ciara the day after XC, which was character building to say the least. Various niggles cropping up but hopefully manageable - could probably do with a massage.
XC was our local one at Newbold Comyn, scene of the famous "bitch of a ditch". Pleased to report I stayed upright in the ditch. It's where all the spectators, including all the photographers, hang out to capture the unfortunate fallers. Had a bit of a cold and seemd to have quite an elevated heart rate - enthusiastic first lap (2 miles) followed by a bit of a tough third mile (second time around the hill) and pulled myself together for the fourth mile for a decent run overall. Team managed ninth overall in Division 1 which is pretty good considering we are up against the uni teams and the likes of Birchfield. We got bronze medals for masters for the season. Happy with that for my first season of captaincy.
LT run today which I am going to get done at lunchtime as working from home and medium long tomorow. Hoping to get another 20 in at the weekend as the week following is Bourton 10k, then Warwick half the week after that which I will do at marathon effort and Retford half the weekend after that which I shall give full beans.
Hope all are well - some promising running going on, Skinny.
Is the bitch of a ditch the one where there is normally YouTube footage?
Well done anyway - you love your XC so nice you’re successful at it too!
well done on the xc, Mcf and getting out on Sunday.
Skinny, yes that'll be the one that youtube footage has been posted on.
Was meant to do a light tune up session for Sunday today, however my left hip was stiff when I woke yesterday. I thought a light recovery run yesterday might be sufficient to loosen it off but it's still stiff today. Going to give it a full rest day today. I have a massage booked first thing tomorrow anyway as part of my half mara prep so will get it worked on there, plus tomorrow was a rest day anyway to absorb the massage benefit.
Looking at weekend weather, I'll make a decision Saturday. I'm eyeing up Coventry on 05th April as March is busy, though i'm slightly put off by the 08.30 start time.
McFlooze, it has been a good xc season for you and nice 20miler too
Skinny another 10 miles and mileage that is being managed. Does the racers give you the needed support. I have only 1 pair of trainers currently gt 1000 that I use for all my training/races, did look at 4% vaporflys i will see if a deal comes on line for them over the coming months.
DT hope your hip eases off prior to physio.
Weather terrible here so no running yesterday, did a 13miler on Friday 9.38 pace and will try and get out tonight. Advice please looking to do one quality session a week up until the marathon, I would love to run the marathon at 8.45-8.50 pace which I think is achievable, what sort of weekly session should I look at doing over these weeks. Have done plenty of miles over the past while so endurance is getting there.
Kevin, I train in gt1000y. You won't need to go as far as the nikes to get some benefit from a dedicated racing shoe based on what you currently race in.
For me, if I could only do one session a week it would be tempo based for a marathon. There are lots of options from longer stints at mp, shorter stints at hmp etc.
My go to session is 8-10m tempo at mp or a bit faster. But it's worth mixing that up with some faster sections in a tempo.
What DT says but you could build up to that by doing warm up, 1 mile on MP, 1 mile easy and repeat 4 times; then next week alternate MP and Steady paces; then maybe 2m MP with 1 mile easy and repeat 3 times etc.
I think whenever I did a training plan it always built the sessions towards about 2 or 3 weeks before the goal race (would be 3 or 4 for a marathon).
P&D do lots of different phases of the marathon training with different emphases but if you manage to complete a marathon you will have achieved more than I ever have (Manchester being my only successful completion which turned out to be a near miss).
Afternoon all.
Well done to anyone who went out in the recent stormy weather, I did not fancy that on Sunday or yesterday. I might try something a bit later today. I did manage parkrun on Saturday but it wasn't anything to write home about. Course was wet and muddy and two steep hills, coupled with a lack of determination resulted in a very average 20:30.
Anyway, who fancies some more shoe chat? Not sure I do, but just a few points from my point of view.
Firstly, to clarify, as DT and Muddy seem to have taken particular umbrage to what I said with to regards smarter training. That was very much with regards to my own training (for what it is), as DT and muddy will see on strava, my training is pretty haphazard due to work commitments and a busy personal life. I therefore can't dedicate enough time consistently to training towards a goal / target race as others can. I wasn't in any way suggesting others should train harder or differently etc.
I haven't spent money on a physio or sports massage since about 2013, so not sure the shoes would save me any money on that front. I train and race almost exclusively in Adidas Tempo and have done for years, as they're comfortable but also relatively lightweight so suit me for what I need. I've had a couple of pair of Hoka Tracers which again I used for training and racing but on balance I prefer the adidas.
With regards to the local v50 star, I don't know him personally he's not a club mate. My point was to Skinny really, just because you buy a pair of those shoes, you are not necessarily going to be age group competitive. He possibly also thinks that he's beyond the age where he'll be getting PB's as he's been running for decades, but he's still clearing up in his age group nationally and still makes the club squad for the regional and national competitions so his training and shoe choices are working for him.
As for the arguments around the shoes themselves, I've never called them cheat shoes or spring shoes etc. Advances in shoe technology have been going on for years, as described by muddy, and coming to the point we have now was inevitable. I think the horse has well and truly bolted with regards to banning the shoes and wiping out PB's etc. I'm not sure about having no regulations with regards to shoe development, again this is a personal opinion, but I see it in the same light as the swimming suits which made everyone faster, or the over sized racquet heads in tennis etc. My feeling is that sporting apparel should be regulated, there's not much point in having a governing body if you're just going to let everyone crack on how they want (I'll get on to Nike's relationship with the IAAF shortly). I think the new version of the shoes muddy is on about, have three of the carbon plates in and a little wheel on the side to adjust them? Again, just a personal opinion, but I think this is way over the top and shouldn't be allowed but it probably will be.
I've read quite a few of the studies and most of them have worryingly small sample sizes. However, some of the results are pretty incredible; 2-2.5% less oxygen use for the same speed etc. The point muddy makes about the responders is a good one too, is it something like 25% of people don't respond? I think I saw in one trial, that athlete A was ~2% slower than Athlete B in 'normal' trainers yet ~4% quicker in the Nike's. I'm not sure how I feel about that, guess it's just hard luck if you're not a responder (or not a Nike sponsored athlete) yet all your other metrics are identical. Tough gig.
I've also read blogs and articles from sub-elite athletes etc who are worried about the development of these shoes and what it means for them and I can appreciate why they are concerned.
Clearly Nike have the World Athletics wrapped around their finger, which is wrong. As in any walk of life, there should be independence between the governing body and any organisation operating under it's guidance. Nike are pulling the strings somewhere, or was it just a coincidence that World Athletics announced that the maximum allowable stack height is 40mm and then a couple of days later Nike announce their new shoe had a stack height of 39.8mm?
Finally, I have moral issues with handing over masses of money to what is an absolute shit house of a company! They oversaw and were probably complicit in the biggest doping scandal to hit the sport in years which resulted in them shutting down their flagship training centre. Along with Rupp and his testo boost, the bullying of young female athletes which is utterly shameful. All of which happened under their flag, I'm sure the other big players are not squeaky clean but I don't think there's been reports of that nature, happy to be corrected on that though.
'and a little wheel on the side'
Oh if they've started putting wheels on the trainers I think that's too far
My main thoughts were about the merits of the shoe, the hyperbole surrounding how it works - it's basically lighter and the foam returns more energy - and the difficulties of trying to curtail shoe advantage when you can contrive examples where individuals have very different responses to shoe switching.
I operate under the same constraints as you, I think, but I do wonder if I trained more whether it would be productive. But if I did somehow sacrifice something to train more, I know the type of foam I'd like in my shoe, and as I've noted other manufacturers are building very good shoes so ethically one can dislike Nike but still benefit from improved shoe engineering.
So I don't even want to defend or support Nike and the Salazar stuff and their corporate ethics and I appreciate that you have your own line in the sand there.
(Saucony Endorphin Pro is getting some great advance press ... )
Nasty corporate behaviour aside, I still see it that they have done a good thing with the shoe design and in putting it out there for scrutiny on performance which is not something many other manufacturers have been open about before now.
It has perhaps had unintended benefits too as those other manufacturers have been stimulated to develop better shoes due to them wanting to do right by their sponsored athletes. Or maybe they are not wanting to do right by their athletes, maybe it can be viewed more commercially - they are all vying for their shoes to have the endorsement of top athletes to improve sales to the sub-elites who want all the marginal gains the top athletes benefit from ?
I can't remotely get into the relationship between World Athletics and Nike as I wouldn't be talking from an informed position.
The next generation of Nike shoes have a single plate and no wheel for adjustments by the way. They reduce weight and provide additional cushioning using air pockets in the forefoot and an even lighter weight shoe upper. Kipchoge's sub 2 alphafly shoes were different to those that will be sold to the rest of the world.
I am quizzical about stack height restrictions, because out of competition the 'better' but 'illegal' shoes can still be used to exert a virtuous influence on training. The next step would be to disallow that advantage and have shoe inspectors making random visits in training.
Skinny I would love to see someone *run* and perform well in roller skates !
In other news it was so windy (and icy) last night that we abandoned the track and went to run round some paths near the golf course instead, which felt fun and adventurous (buffeted by gusts of wind) rather than a soul-destroying grind. I have been going back to training to do actual sessions for a few weeks, and now that I have more of a base of easy miles, am quite enjoying it and not as shit as I feared.
So, yes back to running, which has always been, and will ever be, very marginally about your choice of shoes.
I am more than impressed by McF's cross country followed by a 20 mile run in a storm the very next morning.
Likewise Kevin, good mileage - I would echo DT's comments, the marathon effort tempo runs are great in that they are achievable and not so damaging as big threshold effort runs.
Hope you can recover from your bit of stiffness DT. It's been full tilt for you recently and historically high mileages. Wonder if you can slot a couple of easy weeks in and regroup for a good 6 weeks before London ?
Club session for me last night - 5miles round undulating loops of various lengths (between 0.4m and 0.7m) all around 6 min/mile which I was happy with in the dark and with a decent progression run still in my legs from Monday.
*I had eaten a delicious duck curry made by Mrs Skinny about an hour earlier so this is doubly descriptive.