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Shades Marathon Training
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Please do try the chest strap before you ditch Hadd, just so you know it's not flawed stats.
I don't look at Pof10, it's like the Strava stuff, folk comparing themselves to others and not usually for the right reasons, or for the voyeurs.
I rarely look at Pof10, but thought it was just UK's based.
Big G: my Garmin wasn't loading this morning too but seems fine now.
13k with the croozer this morning. I've got one more day until the schools break up so I'm enjoying the ability to run. We've had some rain this morning which isn't nice.
Emmy - I think it is only UK based, but there may be an equivalent of Pof10 in each country?
What sort of marathon shape do you think you're in? I'm assuming first marathon since baby last August. You've been training well.
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We've signed up Evelyn for the "baby race" which is 600m. She did that distance in January and loved it so we're in "training".
I had an injury (not running related) in my right knee last October. It seemed to have recovered about a month ago but I didn't start running again and continued to eat like i'm running 100 miles per week. So, I am completely back to square one. Well, not quite. I know I CAN get marathon fit again thanks to Shade's and the rest of the people on the thread and I have now embarked upon that journey once again.
I do hope the pandemic doesn't delay or hamper her starting at her US college.
Emmy - weather conditions may be in your favour in Reykjavik so that might help in the latter stages. But as you say just enjoying it is the most important thing and a marathon is usually a good way to see a city.
Great that Evelyn is running too, I bet she's taking her training very seriously.
Here we go again, but you know if you stick around we can get you marathon fit.
Still enjoying your food then
Shades – thanks for your input on the idea of going back to 73%. When I started this “Maffetone” phase at the beginning of June, I said I would at least give it 2 months to end July, so will do that (hoping – as Hadd says – to really squeeze the tube of toothpaste), but then if no change, will revert to 73%, I can always reduce the heart rate if I improve from there.
Ref your point on humidity – although I am from England (red half of Merseyside), and started my serious running there many years ago, I have for some years lived in South Africa. I live near Johannesburg which is at around 5,000ft., so we don’t often have humidity issues, and right now we are in the middle of our winter. But thank you for ANY possible ideas. I am hoping to visit the UK next year and take in a marathon – was fancying London, but looks like only a 1 in 10 chance of getting an entry, so perhaps Chester which is near to my old home, or Brighton which is close to my wife’s. Thank you once more.
Big_G – Makes total sense what you say. Sorry to hear that you also haven’t made much progress. You say that when you look over your records of the last 10.5 weeks you are seeing progress - how much (secs / km?) have you made? Many thanks.
Alehouse – Please never ask if you might make an observation, observations and ideas are exactly what I want. I wondered about the mileage increase but, as I mentioned, the surprising bonus of only slow mileage is that I haven’t felt any real effects. However, as you point out, perhaps the body is feeling it even if I am not, and I am hoping that this may mean some improvement to come. And I have certainly heard loud and clear that patience is key. I have had a couple of cut-back weeks over the last 3,5 months, maybe I should try more. Many thanks.
Rcouture – You certainly don’t seem to have problems making progress, would be very interested to hear more, did the progress start immediately, or later in the 2+ months? Did you stick religiously to MAF? Ref the point already made, were you improving even whilst building mileage? My training times are still a bit slower than yours, and my HM time also – my most recent race was a 1:49 on about 25 miles a week back in August. Hopefully some scope for improvement. Many thanks.
Returnee, I'm quite pleased with my progress overall, but it's not been linear. I've made 30-secs/mile progress on my MAF tests and also 30-secs/mile progress on various other routes that I record since doing this. I'm pleased with that but a frustrating thing is that sometimes I get glimpses where some miles feel effortless on the flat and I glance at my watch and my HR low in my MAF range - when that happens I feel like I'm flying along. For that reason I sometimes think my MAF tests aren't progressing as quickly as I'd like but I am pleased with the progress overall, and it's enabled me to be consistent with decent mileage. I also really surprised myself last Friday as I did a 5k time trial on my own off of 10 weeks of MAF and I was pleased with my time. I think from the 5k time trial I'm probably in 5k PB shape if I could toe the start line in a proper race. One thing I don't understand is that I'm still getting quite a lot of cardiac drift on my MAF tests.
Big G - Any idea why you get the drift on the MAF tests? I think you have said before that you do a warm up, so shouldn't be that, but maybe you need a bit extra to get prepared?
The OH has a HR strap, so I might use that as it's probably more accurate than the old garmin one I have.
Khani: welcome back! Good luck returning to fitness. I love Paris and the marathon has a special place in my heart (not the final forest... That's a demon!).
Big G: based on your location: do you see a difference in your HR when you come over here? Being so flat, I'm guessing you'd be flying?
I hope you do come over next year to do a marathon. If London cancel this year's event the odds of you getting a place in 2021 will lengthen I suppose. I haven't done Brighton, Rcouture is going to do that one. A few of us have done Chester, good race and PB course.
Big G - yes, your cardiac drift is a mystery. You don't get that sort of drift in a normal training run do you? Weird that you do in MAF tests.
I haven't forgotten about doing a trial MAF test for you, I did mean to do it on Tuesday. Set out on one of my ILTHR routes, easy mile to start, then when my watch beeped without thinking I upped the pace and didn't realise until I was on the third mile that this wasn't an ILTHR run. By then I'd let my HR get too high so finished ILTHR run.
Steve/Shades......long post coming up!
Steve, I'm not sure. Do you think a longer warm up would bring the HR down in the MAF test? I was presuming that if I did, say, a 3 mile warm up, the results of the MAF test would then be even worse. I can try it as a one off just to see, but I think it'd end up being slower. Currently, I basically run easy for a warmup mile, and then get to my MAF course and restart the watch from there.
Generally, there are often occasions in a run when I'm on the flat that I'm doing 8:45min/miles, for example. If I get a nice, slightly downhill section (nothing crazy) it can be 8:30 and HR can be say 136ish. On my best MAF test so far my 3rd mile was 9:00 and the 4th and 5th slower than that. Most of my runs have some inclines at some point so it's hard to say for sure as I know I am very slow on the hills and a lot of my miles have at least some slopes/hills, but I don't feel I drastically slow on a usual 6 or 7 miler, whereas in that MAF test I knew I was slowing.
I don't very often run on the flat for long periods apart from the MAF test. Could that be something to do with it - I just don't practice pancake flat running enough and the fact I'm walking hills is a problem, even though my HR is where it needs to be? Seems unlikely I think.
It can't be that I'm putting pressure on myself can it, and that's driving up the HR on a MAF test? Surely it can't be that? I don't think it is that as sometimes on the MAF tests I can just feel I'm slowing/tiring in order to keep the HR the same.
I don't think I'm running too quickly or too slowly, but I suppose that's always a possibility. But then would I have made the progress I have with my overall MAF pace, and that surprising 5k time? As we've said, 142bpm is 73% of max which I think is probably okay, bearing in mind I'm often lower than that. For example, today's run was 131, yesterday AM was 136 and yesterday PM 137 average. Or is that the issue - not a lot of my runs are actually *at* 142....a lot of them are a bit lower than that?
The only other thing I was thinking was hydration. I do these MAF tests first thing in the morning and sometimes don't hydrate as much as I probably should, especially if it's been humid over night. After about 2.5 miles on my last test I was feeling thirsty and when I got home I downed water very quickly. Some of my better runs in the afternoon I've been hydrating all day. This is probably something to look at anyway, but would it impact the MAF tests that much? Seems unlikely as most of my runs are in the morning. I feel I'm grasping at straws really.
It is odd because my drift is in line with what Maffetone says but as I've said before I really don't think I go along with his view point there.
This may look like I'm overthinking as I've written loads there(!!!), but it's not that it's on my mind all the time. It's just annoying when I feel I am possibly fitter than my MAF tests show, but of course the HR doesn't lie. Generally speaking I feel I'm going in the right direction apart from this point.
In Hadd tests there's no warm up but that's because the first part is done at 67.5% MHR. If I did a warm up I'd never get my HR down to that.
If you started the MAF test too fast you would lose pace trying to get HR back in range but that's not happening either.
However, you shouldn't really be feeling any tiredness kicking in over 5 miles but that could be mental tiredness as you're having to run 5 laps of the same course.
I'm sure that more running on the flat wouldn't help you at all. In fact as most of your routes are undulating that should make any flat miles feel much more relaxed and more chance of hitting that 'cruising' mode.
Just watching Coronavirus update on BBC and gyms opening from the 25th July.
Other sports too can start sooner I think provided their governing body approves and to their guidelines. So we should expect EA to make their next update very soon.
Things haven't gone so well for me. Achilles was sore all afternoon after my run on Tuesday so stuck to walking yesterday and today. My body seems to be having a fight with itself at the moment. I have a minor wrist issue (big thumb tendon I think) which has also woken up - it seems like I've gone into inflammation mode or something. Oh and I had a visual migraine as well on Tuesday afternoon. Fortunately I don't get a headache with these, but I get a flickering coloured zig-zag thing and can't really see properly while it's going on, so had to lie down until it went away. I put that down to the lack of sleep the night before but I've not had one of those since the year my parents died (stressful time, as you might imagine) which was 7 years ago so it's rather disconcerting. I'm not stressed at all, so it's a bit of a worry as these types of migraines can be a stroke risk, and I really don't want one after seeing what my parents went through.
Anyway, onwards and upwards.
Shades, it's almost like I need a check list of things to do before a MAF test
Decided in the end not to go for a run this afternoon. I feel fine but a) I've ran 11 days in a row and b) it did feel humid to me so I'm not sure it would have been a great run anyway. I've been doing some boring "life admin" instead.
There does seem to be some movement happening in the Covid restrictions for sports. As it currently stands, we (Trotters) can't put on our mini-club championship so maybe soon things will be updated and we can do something after all. I was messaging Chair the last few days and we are both keen to do something as otherwise the awards nights (if it goes ahead....) will be very empty.
I looked on the website for the 10 mile I'm hoping for in August,they updated last night saying they had a good call with EA and believe with government guidance to be announced early next week they will be able to take more entries,currently capped at 100.Sounds promising for smaller events to start soon.
Couple of good days here,9 last night and 10@MP today,felt a slight niggle in my inner knee,I have had it before so just need to manage it well,usually goes with a few days of ibuprofen.
Quite interesting
Mile 1: 135bpm, 8:54
Mile 2: 137bpm, 8:53
Mile 3: 141bpm, 8:58
Mile 4: 142bpm, 9:06
Mile 5: 141bpm, 9:20
So clearly manipulated to help avoid cardiac drift, but still an interesting test. A bit slower overall compared to the other day but much less variation. Probably doesn't tell me/us anything but still interesting I suppose.
One thing I can say for sure is that a headwind makes a massive difference. I run my tests on a 1-mile out and back course. Below are the 10x0.5 mile splits for the run - odd-numbers are with a slight tail wind, even-numbers with a slight headwind. It really wasn't that windy; it was good conditions. But look at this (split number, Av pace, Av HR, beats per mile) - each even-numbered split is quite a lot slower/harder than the previous odd-numbered split. It's really noticeable on those numbers.
I reckon on a day with near zero wind and low humidity I'd do better.
Edited to add, no more MAF tests until August now. Promise
That's great news about your 10 miler (and races in general). That pre marathon race is important to you.
Big G - do you know, when I was out running this morning, it was cool and fresh and lower humidity I had an idea you'd be out doing another MAF test especially after our discussions about it yesterday. So I'm not surprised, but you must stop being so impatient.
Your edit should read 'no more MAF tests until 10th August'
Anyway, the mile paces look fine for the first 3 miles but you're actually getting cardiac drift from mile 3 which is not good and unfortunately if you'd run the first two miles closer to your MAF rate then the drift would have been more significant. But on the positive side if you'd run the first 2 miles at the right HR they would have been faster.
When I mentioned yesterday about starting too quickly I meant going over the target HR and having to slow to get back to target HR.
You're right the wind makes a huge difference, even in weather like today when it's fairly light.
6 miles for me, lovely cool and fresh this morning, much easier to keep HR under control.
As expected I now have 2 emails from Easyjet informing me my flights to the IOM are cancelled. I may transfer as their new schedule is coming out on 16th July for flights up to end Sept 2021, so could rebook for IOM next year or find another marathon to do, I'll see.
Big G, I think humidity impacts us more than we realise.
I had a pretty good sleep last night (actually more than 7 hours for once) and after a 35 minute session of rolling and rehab exercises I thought I'd chance a run. It was not a great run. I could feel all the niggles and although I was going at recovery pace, it didn't feel as easy as it should. My dreams of doing the EA virtual 5K this weekend have more or less evaporated.