P&D Spring Marathon 2020

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  • 10M is a good start to December TR. 3,5xx should be on.
    Great stuff SQ. Great to have you back. Give me a shout if you fancy a jaunt round the FoD at any point this month.
    Macca: loved seeing your Fly 5K on Saturday. Fair play for giving it a crack the day after that mountainous 50K. 
    My RHR is 42 & my max is maybe 175 though with all the miles currently I’d struggle to get above 167. No way I could run anything at 115 though. My average on Saturday was 123 but that was for high 10s. I was at 132 for both runs today 8:25 first thing & 8:14 this evening. Extended the run to 8M & did a progressive 2K from 6M. Slightly over the required run rate again 😎
  • JohnOzJohnOz ✭✭✭
    edited December 2020
    Cal - quite an image with that description of yourself! Well done on pushing yourself to get it done up those hills, it's probably my least favourite session. I tortured myself a few years ago doing reps up a local road that's 400m long, starts off tough but doable then ramps up to a ridiculous 22% at halfway before "flattening" out back to 15%. It hosts an annual fundraising event and it's pretty funny to see people crawl over the finish or even have their legs give way just before as the lactic overwhelms them.  

    Jools - good target to aim for in Dec. Are you going to try to evenly spread it or fit in a big one?

    SQ - yes that's the one, they have pretty much all the top distance runners and are the closest we get to a Bowerman Track Club or NAZ Elite. Good to hear you're back into a plan, take it easy on the more intense sessions!

    TR - good stuff, almost sounds like you're back to your normal running.

    Hamo - maybe you can do one of those every couple of weeks without breaking down your body and as you get nearer to your goal race it becomes one of your weekly sessions.

    Love the chat around HR data as I finally upgraded my watch and its been fascinating seeing how much info you can get now, although can't say I understand what all of it means. After a few weeks of tracking I've discovered my RHR is 46 and max HR got up to 189 when I did my 5k TT. An easy run is around 130-140 outdoors and about 10bpm lower indoors. Keeping myself motivated by doing the Marcothon - at least 3 miles every day in December and hoping to reach 5200km, need to do just over 12km per day. 


  • Cal...Nice hill reps, pleasing that you had recovered well for it too. Lumberjack porn breathing is a class way to describe it :lol: Lovely bit of strava recognition (LL and top 10) to round off what sounds like a class run, always nice when the enjoyment is there.

    Jools...Nice doubles, esp with a progressive finish to the 2nd run. All the best with, and enjoy running down your December/yearly target...it'll be a big month no matter what anyway. Run rate 11 ish a day?

    SQ...Exciting news, all the very best with the plan. I'd agree, i find the 12 secs hill followed by strides to be almost a mini session rather than just a leg spinner. 

    TR...Nice 10 miler. 2022 filling up already for you? :lol: None of my booked races have went that far yet, but i have an idea it is coming, esp for the 10ks that are scheduled for March time, as 2021 is already too heavily stacked at the end of the year to fit more in.

    John...That would be the plan if i go for it, i certainly wont be MP'ing every week of a block. The Marcothon will keep getting you out the door to finish the year strong, good idea to do it.


    Interesting chat about the HR data, funny how it can vary so wildly from person to person. For what it's worth, my RHR is 41 (according to garmin over the last 12 months), and Max was 202 (a year and a half ago, measured after brutal hills wearing a chest strap), so i'd guess now its at 201/200 allowing for age decline. Recovery runs usually 120 - 130 bpm, easy 130 - 145 ish.

    11 miles with a straight half hour at LT pace this morning for me. I averaged 5.29 min miling for the effort, so as good as 5.5 miles covered in half an hour which i am more than happy with. 

  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    You are going well jools, great stuff. Ni more niggle ?

    Hamo - nice tun today. I think there will be more closed off races through the spring, im looking for a 1/2 before Dorney mara. I have 6 marathon entries for 2021, all rolled over from 2021!

    Saw there are a few quick folks down for some of the Goodwood distances sunday. Whilst its only going to be a few degrees, its forecast to be sumny with 6mph winds ! Which is a kick in the balls seeing as i cant race now, it was 40mph wind when AWC and myself were there in sept.
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    12x3min reps plus wu and wd on turbo, legs knew i was pedalling but the engine will be none the wiser.
  • Jools, 115 is a fast walk for me! RHR is usually high 40s and I've gone over 180 for 5K efforts but it "only" hit 160s on my hills yesterday. I struggle to get below 150 for even an easy run, though that's wrist-based so I'm aware it's not as accurate as a chesty.

    John, that sounds like a ridiculous hill! The steepest ones I do are 18% or so. Fox Hill has a 20% sign at the bottom but Strava seems to suggest it's not quite that steep. I find 10% a better bet for hill sprints - anything steeper and I'm no longer sprinting. I do like the challenge, though.

    That's a great LT sesh, hamo. Yeah, I got a few trophies but one of them was because I went up the wrong footpath initially, so circled around...turned out to be a rather obscure segment. I've had a few trophies that way. :D

    TR, always the way, no? I've actually put myself down for a couple of short races next week - a 10K Wednesday evening and a 5K on the Saturday. Not expecting much but they have nice, festive medals and I'm a sucker for stuff like that.
    Runthrough will have a half or two but they'll be lapped ones - the Velopark is 13 laps. Probably good practise for Dorney though.

    7 miles at recovery pace today - I was thinking about doing an MLR but legs were very heavy after yesterday (unsurprisingly) so I didn't push it.
  • TR...That field and weather forecast is a real kick in the balls, and sums up 2020 to be fair, just brutal and sods law. But, there will be other perfect days for racing for you. Nice turbo reps.

    Cal...Doesn't matter how you get the trophy's, you still have them :lol: Fair play to you jumping into the races this week, just right. Sensible sticking to a recovery and not pushing it to a MLR if your legs where heavy.


    10 miles GA for me this morning, might double up with a recovery run later.
  • Nice one, hamo.

    10 for me today, too...a bit of a soggy one (it was raining but not hard). However, there were lot of puddles which I somehow managed to kick all over my own shoes despite trying to avoid them. Wet socks.
    I ran via Earlsfield to Wimbledon Village then home via Tooting - there was one big hill (11%) going up to Wimbledon but as I wasn't sprinting, hammy seemed OK with it.
    I didn't look at my watch for the whole run so I was a bit disappointed to find out the whole thing was recovery pace (10:40-11) even though it felt more like 10-10:20 pace. Cadence was normal but stride length had gone to hell. I guess there's still a lot of fatigue in the legs from Tuesday.
    Oh well, miles logged, at least.

  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    Well done folks,  10m for me too in my rainy run commute this mornimg.
  • Week 1 day 4 of P&D and 10m also done here this eve in the rain and dark, I tried to tell myself it would be worth a few seconds come spring but I wasnt convincing anyone.
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    Macca - i copped a dunking but told myself it was better than being stuck inside isolating, whatever it takes to convince ourselves on the day. I'll be sure to borrow your idea sometime.
  • Ha, I just reminded myself it would be windier and possibly sleet tomorrow, and if I didn't run in the light rain today, I'd have to run in that tomorrow instead.
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    Cal - that'd work too.

    12m for me today, getting back there a bit more.
  • Cal JonesCal Jones ✭✭✭
    edited December 2020
    Nice work, TR.
    After a rest yesterday (which included a walk and then some light upper body weights in the gym - don't want to go too hard too soon there and cop a massive case of DOMS) I was due for my weekly 5K time trial today.
    I decided to run down to King George's Park in Earlsfield, which is long but flat, as I'm bored of my local fast route. It was sunrise when I went out and I felt quite happy with the pink sky over my head - legs felt quite good too. Ran the 2.5 miles there then restarted my watch and started out pretty hard. Ran the length of the park (I did have to skirt around a car on the road that goes through the middle of it, but didn't lose too much time there) and then back up to the gate I came in. I'd planned to go back out and finish up on the Wandle Trail, which is nearby, but there were two old ladies and their dogs coming through the gate and it was obvious they weren't going to move out of my way in time so I hairpinned around and went back the way I came, then back along the road I'd crossed earlier and into Earlsfield.
    My pace was, frankly, dreadful. I finished it in 26:53 which is two minutes down on what I'd consider to be decent. I'd like to say I was taking it easy, but I was breathing hard and my watch suggested HR was high (although that could have been cadence lock - hard to tell. Felt hard though).
    The pace I ran today was my HMP in January (and I was running sub-25s throughout summer, aside from the 10 days I took off with a dodgy groin). I don't know how I've detereriorated so much but it's quite disheartening.
    I jogged the 2.5 miles home feeling a lot less happy than when I left my house.
    I have a 10K next Wednesday and a 5K on the Saturday so I expect those will give me a better idea of where I'm at under race conditions. I'm not expecting miracles though.
    I just wondered if any of you guys have had similar drop-offs in performance and how you combat this? I did miss a lot of running in October with the hamstring but I've knocked out a few 40+ mile weeks since then and I've not put stacks of weight on or anything, so I'm not sure how to explain this.
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    edited December 2020
    Cal - as you say you've missed some running recently, so dont beat yourself up. Try to get a consistent block in even if its slow (im on slow only at the mo, due to the CV break). Can you get some aerobic cross training in ? Wattbike ? Crosstrainer? At yr gym.

    10m more took it easy (as ever) as my RHR has been a few beats high in the morning last couple of days, so migt have a cold coming.
    5 runs (4×10, 1x12) and 2 turbos, i need to build towards including an mlr and a decent length long run in the 5 now.
  • TR, I was using the elliptical a bit when I was on my hamstring break - I bloody hate it though. I prefer to go out for a fast walk if I can't run. I can't ride a bike so cycling's out - used to quite enjoy spin but my current gym is tiny (it's a running track with a small weights room attached) and doesn't have spin bikes. There are some spin studios locally but right now I have hardly any money.

    Hope you don't get a cold - I can usually tell as I feel super tired and sneeze a lot before any other symptoms present.
  • I had these grand plans for today of waking up early and going out in the dark, running up to Regents Street to look at the Christmas lights and then back via Covent Garden. But when I woke at 5 it felt like the middle of the night so I went back to sleep for half an hour and then felt groggy and unmotivated. I almost sacked off running completely but persuaded myself to try and do 10 miles (the minimum I need for my weekly target, if I'm going to hit 2000 this year) and went out in the rain just before 8.
    Weather was not as bad as forecasted, though, and the rain stopped quickly, leaving me feeling a bit hot in my hat and gloves. I ran down to Battersea, along the river then turned off at Wandsworth and found King George's Park (where I ran yesterday), up through there, along two sections of the Wandle then home via Tooting. I still get very confused around Wandsworth Town - last time I tried to find the park from the river I missed it entirely, but this time I did find it but took a route that was about three times longer than it needed to be. Ah well.
    Pace was very sluggish again - just under 11 for most of it. While I tried to enjoy the route at least (I made a point of picking one I enjoyed, since I didn't really want to run at all) I was dragging for a lot of it.
    I logged 12 miles in the end, which I'm happy with under the circumstances - I just wish I wasn't so bloody slow at the moment. Not sure how I'm going to manage a decent half in two weeks, let alone a 10K on Wednesday but there you go.
    I'll do an easy run Tuesday and then maybe a couple of miles very slow on Wednesday morning (I usually do a short run in the morning if I have an evening race).
    Sleep has been better so I hope that and a couple of easier days will help me do a bit better.
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    edited December 2020
    Well done today Cal. The elliptical would do nicely, agreed re the boredom, its why i do intervals on the turbo.

    Turbo for me today. Dissappointed to miss Goodwood, no wind today (due to my absence) so there were some rapid times accross the various distances. A quick scan shows someone who did 2.47 last time ran 2.42 today, i reckoned on losing about 30sec/lap accross the 11 laps, so seems about right. Joe was there today.
  • Yeah I'm sure he'd have rather been in Valencia but he did a sub-3. Katie did sub-90 in the half.
  • Well done TR & Cal
    Frustrating about Goodwood TR. Was perfect marathon weather down here in Devon too today.
    Dozen for me too yesterday afternoon/evening. Couldn’t be bothered to try my usual 5K TT after a crap night’s sleep & waking with a headache. 
    Dunno what’s up Cal although you definitely need more sleep.
    I lost it in the Spring of 2019, although the decline started earlier, which I put down to overtraining. Nothing I’d not done before but I had some additional life stressors which tipped me over the edge. Result: tried training harder but kept getting slower. Near enough quit running for 3 months then started back in the September. Took a while to come back & tbh I’m still 60+ seconds slower over 5K but then I’ve run mega-mileage & not been racing or doing any structured speed work in almost 6 months. My endurance is better than ever but raw speed is abominable & speed endurance is poor.
    Did another hilly 17.7M today: mix of N Devon lanes & SWCP. That brought up 95.8 miles for the week & didn’t break me so the 2020 target is very much still attainable. Required run rate is 11M/day.
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    Well done Katie then.

    Jools - cracking weekend there. I like the required run rate updates, appeals to my cricketing history.......the IoW mara winner ran 66min at GW today, the winner of the mara ran 2.19 solo ! Its quick there when its not windy.

    Im looking at a 1/2 at Newbury Racecourse in Feb which is 6 weeks out from Dorney.
  • Jools - running in the forest over the Christmas break would be brilliant. I will let you know. Prompt me if I am slow in getting in touch. Brilliant you are getting in so much running on the beautiful SWCP.

    Interesting to read your HR analysis, John. Is the 10 beats lower for easy runs indoor comparing the same pace - or effort? A result of it being cooler?

    Hamo - 41 - 202 is a hell of a range. I guess that is a really good thing. Impressive LT and long run. 

    Six rolled over marathons entries, TR! Hope the recover is going well. 

    Sounds a wise choice to swap a MLR for a recovery, Cal. Suspect you will go much faster in the races than a solo time trial - especially as you have done several TTs. Race day adrenaline is crucial for me, and there is only so many times you can get really up for it by yourself.


    Week one of the plan complete. Highlights of the latter half include an 8M on Wednesday - where it was great to get a bit further along the canal in the more peaceful sections. 

    Then a proper session on Friday: 4 x 6 mins at LT, with 2 minute jogs. No idea on pace and wanky watch and heavy tree combo isn’t a great combination. But felt good. I’d guess maybe 6:50 average pace for the efforts. Wore the new Adios 5 for the first time. Felt fun to run in a significantly lighter shoe for the first time in many months. Nippy shoe as always, although think I didn’t fully pull out the tongue which resulted in a small hotspot on my right arch.

    4M buggy recovery yesterday before my long run of the week this morning: 9.3M at 8:10 with the buggy. Got the best of the weather with a brilliant sunrise and perfectly still and cool conditions. The lad is well wrapped up in a special sleeping bag then the rain cover. So in a way, it being colder helps him sleep and therefore me get away with running for a bit longer. Tried to go above recovery pace and HR. Couldn’t quite seem to elevate the HR, but happy with the pace for a buggy run. 

    So 34M for the week. Feel like it was at least a 60M. Makes you wonder how running consecutive 50/60/70/80M type weeks and not batting an eyelid is actually a really impressive level of fitness, resilience and commitment. Slowly, slowly and those days will come again!

  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    edited December 2020
    SQ - thats another good week, building nicely. Yes, 6 rolled over entries, would be good to use 3 or 4 of them. We'll see.

    10m run commute home.
  • JohnOzJohnOz ✭✭✭
    Cal - sorry to hear of your continued woes. I know you don't run every day but maybe it could still help to take a down week or at least one with just short easy runs? I find regular races really bring back my speed so the 2 you have could surprise you. The only other thought is have you checked your iron levels? Could be too low if you're feeling fatigued or generally sluggish.

    Jools - huge week, great to see you back on track for the magic number.

    TR - commiserations on missing Goodwood, sounds like you would have easily found 5 mins. Good on you for keeping the training going, the half will be coming around quickly which is good motivation.

    SQ - yes for the same pace my HR is 10bpm lower. Probably because outside is hilly in all directions and mostly hot, so I don't mind a few TM runs each week. Today I progressed up to MP for a HR of 150s vs 160s outdoors. Nicely done on the comeback, strange that you can't get your HR up though. Mine very easily shoots up to high 170s when I go up hills!

    Just easy runs for me, with 17 miles at a harder effort than it should be on Sunday. I'm also finding it hard to believe 20s were regular LRs a few weeks ago. 
  • 17M is still an impressive effort, John! Nice that you have hills and scenery so close, but easy to take it truly easy on that terrain. In general, my HR has been higher than when fit, but not so on Sunday morning - probably as it was so cold. 

    Second session of 6 x 12s hills (road) and 8 x strides (flat grass) today. Enjoyed it more than last week. Good to run fast but without thinking about any kind of pace outcome. Lovely cold and crisp morning. Good to get on the grass before it softens up and gets to squelchy in the sun later on.
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    edited December 2020
    John - not just regular 20s, regular marathons. Youd soon step back up there.

    Good going SQ, you are doing well, good to be back up to a bit of pacey stuff.

    It rained last night here and then the temps plummeted early doors (i could hear the roof icing up at 4am) which made todays run commute very slow and a bit silly as it was too icey to run really, so just the 5m minimum. Although thats not a bad thing at the mo.

    Goodwood have put a 14th Feb event in, so I'll probably go there for a pre Dorney 1/2 with a decent wu and wd, or do the full to tick my sub3 box again. We'll see where i am by January time.
  • John, I'll probably do that in January - I'm still hoping I can manage 2000 miles before the end of the year. Having said that, I probably won't try that again - my body seems happier with 15-1600.

    SQ, I can relate - I'm feeling quite tired on low 40s at the moment whereas I was doing mid-50s back when I thought I was still training for Tokyo and Manchester. I actually equalled my HM PB at Farnborough in January the week after doing a 55 mile week.

    John, same really...14 miles seemed an awfully long way when I ran it two Sundays ago. 12 seemed long this Sunday too.

    TR, I try to avoid running when it's icy - it stressed me out too much. I fall over enough as it is!

    Just 6 today - easy pace. Misty and cold.
  • Thanks for the Goodwood heads up. Will look into the mid Feb date. Elderly grandmother close by so a good reason to travel for a race. 

    Agreed re the icy paths this morning. The tarmac by the river definitely required a slower pace. More moisture from the river causing it, I suppose. 
  • SQ, I'm sure she'd appreciate a visit.

    I did do a little run this morning - just four miles, and I went as slowly as I could manage (which turned out to be really slow. Each mile was a little under 12 minute pace). Felt a bit odd but also strangely enjoyable - perhaps I've been going too fast all along. (Having said that, cadence was low and stride was super short, so I'm not sure it's good for my form to run that slowly).
    Hope I can pull something out of the bag this evening - I'd be happy getting around at HMP the way things have been going.
  • Cal...That is a good effort for the 5k TT, even if it wasn't what you wanted, the effort was still there and that's all that matters, and as John says, you'll go faster in a race than a TT. Cut yourself some slack. Fair play getting yourself out the door when the motivation is low. Best of luck this evening, i'm really hoping you go well, and looking forward to a rare race report.

    TR...Good running, you are definitely getting back to it rightly with 12 milers and a batch of 10's. Shame that you missed Goodwood, but take it as a positive that you can now be sure you where in 2.55 shape (though we all where), bar the wind last time... 3 dead is still an awesome marathon time to hold all the same :lol: Nice that you have the choice of Goodwood for the 1/2 or full in February as well.

    Macca...Exciting to see you starting into a new p&d plan, best of luck with it.

    Jools...That is a good weekends running, and a big week again. That target is very attainable for you now, esp when you break it down into a run rate per day and you know what you have to hit, good incentive.

    SQ...Congrats on getting week 1 finished. Good LT session, strides, hill work and, as always, nice buggy running. Has to feel nice to get a few proper sessions in and under your belt. 34 is a good weekly total too, and as you say, as long as you do it sensibly and slowly that will total will increase.

    John...Nothing wrong with a week, or more, of easy running. Keeps the base nice and strong, and it wasn't long ago that you where knocking out marathons every other week so you have lost nothing :lol: 


    On Saturday i done an interval session, 10x 600 metres off 60 secs. The 10 efforts averaged 4.55 min miling give or take, which i am more than happy with. 9 mile all in with the WU and CD. I followed that up with a hilly (not to Jools standards, but to me :lol:) 22 mile long run at 6.20's to round the week off at 84.5 miles.

    Usual double recovery on Monday, 6 and 4, then an easy 11 miler yesterday. Back to intervals again this morning, 2 x 1200 (off 120 seconds), 2 x 1000 (off 100) and 2 x 800 (off 80) all averaging in and around 5 min miling, so a good session, even though the actual distances where a bit long as i had to reroute due to ice...didn't fancy turning a tight corner at 5 min pace onto a slippy footpath :flushed: :lol: WU and CD meant 10 odd miles total for the run.

    I am seriously considering Wrexham for April, and sacking off Galway. The field for Wrexham is top notch, and i have read that they have 50 people looking in and around 2.27 - 2.30, including some elite women who are after the Olympic standard for Tokyo (2.29:30). So they are planning on having pacers for that time bracket. Which means I would have a good group to run with and pacers taking the pressure off for the first few miles. IF i go for it, i will be starting my new block on Monday (to allow for Christmas week) so i may decide sharpish :lol: 
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