My Last Run

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  • That's a good hill session, Hazel - I ran up a big hill during my 10 miler yesterday (and a less big one) and didn't even hit 100m.

    7 at recovery pace today - gorgeous sunny weather but as I went out late (10am) the commons were full of small children and small dogs so I constantly had to slow down to avoid falling over one. Fortuantely I was intentionally going slowly, otherwise I'd have been annoyed.
    Legs felt tired.
  • Oh yes - if only people would put those little kids on a lead sometimes.. :D

    10 yesterday - nice loop around with the inevitable ups and downs but legs were surprisingly ok with that.  Starting to get used to the idea that my average pace is dropping because of it.  I'm also getting a bit more confident about navigating my way around - it does stress me out that I have little time post work to get a run in in daylight as I want to be able to see where I am going and not end up standing in the woods with no idea of where I am (I do take a phone with a map app though).  Shortest day coming up soon fortunately.
  • I take it you have a head/chest light or something? Well done on the 10.

    My half was cancelled last minute with us moving into Tier 3 and cases rising - major bummer. Not that I am in PB shape but I was rather looking forward to it. I was very down in the dumps yesterday but I had a good gym session and felt a bit better after that.
    With the half cancelled, no need to do a short recovery run today so I did 7 miles with some faster paced stuff towards the end. I went out while it was still dark (7am) and stuck to main roads initially, going at a slower pace. Once it started getting light I was able to move to the side roads and add in some MP bursts, which I rather enjoyed. It felt good giving my legs and lungs a bit more of a workout - I've been holding back all week.
    I'll do a longer run tomorrow - not sure how long but I'll see how I feel.
  • Glad the confidence in your surroundings is growing, Hazelnut. It is disconcerting going to a new area and worrying you might get lost. I always look forward to the shortest day with the promise that the days will then get longer and warmer.

    Shame about the HM, Cal. Very late in the day to cancel and so disappointing for a lot of people. At least you managed a decent session in the gym and you managed to get a good run in this morning.

    Work still manic. I was on a call at 8am this morning and did a couple of hours of sorting issues out before getting out for a relatively gentle run from Shoreham to Lancing Green and back along the seafront. Just a touch under 5 miles, but with the south westerly the first half was slower than the return. Did think how john was getting on with his weekly 3 miler just down the road. Then back to more issues to resolve and another meeting at 12:30. Having to work tomorrow as well and even though I'm on leave next week I have a feeling I'm going to be spending time having to do things.
  • Tier 4!!! Urgh! This year...

    Great race build up and training for my 10 miler tomorrow.1:25 in test run, and it's obviously now cancelled.

    More worryingly I'd juggled work to do all my shopping monday and Tuesday evening after a relentless 13 days at work. Nobody will get anything now. Nooo.

    Stay safe all. Medway is now worst in the country I think. 4 of our team now sick with Covid.

    Roll on 2021.


  • That'll be my last gym session for a while too, GD, since it's now closed again. Bloody Tier 4. (Tier 4 just means local lockdown, apparently).
    Hope you're not called to work on Christmas Day.

    Linton, scary about your team...hope you can avoid it. I think this lockdown has taken a lot of people by surprise and Christmas plans and presents have been scuppered. I'll be on my own this Christmas rather than spending it with my friend in Manchester so I basically won't have a Christmas, as such.

    Absolutely glorious out today - sun, not too much wind - it would have been perfect for the half. But oh well, it was a nice day for a run along the river so I did the Thames loop I tried a couple of weeks back - down to Battersea, along to Putney Bridge, over and then back on the other side. 14 miles logged. I thought I might do more but hams and glutes felt pretty fried by the time I got back to Battersea so I decided to head directly home from there. I seem to have lost some muscular endurance so I'll need to work on getting that back. Plenty of time for that, though.
  • Bad luck on the cancellations Cal and LTT.  Especially if the conditions would have been good.  

    Stay well LTT - how much contact do you have at work?  That is also a pain regarding the shopping.  For working people it seems to be getting harder and harder to get things done, be it shopping or at least getting in some sort of relaxation from working, good thing at least we can still run. 

    Good you were able to get in a gym session before it closed again Cal.  Nice 14.  I do have a headtorch but also have a poor sense of orientation - in woodland in particular. 

    Turn off the work phone next week GD?  Hard to relax maybe even if you do.  Glad you managed to get out for a run.

    Back to familiar ground for the last two days - taking advantage of some things we needed to do in / collect from the old flat meaning I had an excuse to drive to flatter ground.  A rather overenthusiastic 6.8 miles yesterday in 57 mins followed by an HM in about 1:49 today.  Put in a bit of progression on the latter to get to around my old MP over 6 miles.  Glad I took a basic fruit bar with me as I would have got very hungry without.  Need to get my eating sorted on Sundays as I tend to breakfast too late and run at lunch and run the tanks empty as a result.  Greyish sort of day but the odd glimpse of the sun.  More or less normal number of people out and about - was expecting more.    As the municipal golf course is currently closed I was able to take a route I generally avoid on Sundays - bit dodgy crossing the fairways sometimes.  
  • Been AWOL from the thread for a few days, since which time the Covid crisis has sliced through folks' plans for travel, Xmas, gym sessions and the odd running event. Thankfully we can all still get out and do some  (impressive) training and burn off a few calories in anticipation of some sort of Xmas excess.  I think I read somewhere that the 'average' Brits Xmas Day intake was 6K calories.

    I was thinking about an entering an event on 2nd January, to fill the hole left by the absence of Parkruns over the holiday period. I love a Christmas day Parkrun and the possibility of a NYs Day 'double'.

    The event is one of a series of 5ks being run in mid Sussex. (Note for locals: Ardingly.) My pal marshalled at one and warned me that 'the standard looks pretty high'. When I looked at the results I realised just how high. A 15 minute 5K might get you into the top 20! More realistically a 23 minute time would get you just about last out of 300+ runners!!

    After I looked at the results, I changed my plans. (And it'll probably be cancelled anyway.) Of course it's just a coincidence that 23.00 would be just about my predicted finishing time! The old football chant of 'what's it like to be outclassed' comes to mind.

    A couple of runs along the prom this weekend - but a brutal wind has not helped boost confidence for any sort of fast run.


  • A bit of a "stress relief" run yesterday. I think it was needed. As stated by Cal, decent conditions, slight headwind.

    11.3 miles in 1:34. That's 8:21 pace, which is hard going for me over that distance. Definitely a 10 mile PB in there somewhere. If I could hold that for another 15 minutes that would be sub 1:50 half. I was weary afterwards though! Some bits were slow and hilly, but some miles were sub 8, best 7:45. Even got encouragement from a group of cyclists so I must have looked like I was trying hard.

    I'm finally the last runner in the UK to join Strava! I only have one friend who runs so currently follow one person! Who follows me! I'm a bit confused how it all works.. I haven't a GPS watch so have to lug my hefty phone around in my running belt, which is a bit rubbish.

    I must say though, when I ran on sunday i went in race shorts, vest and a long sleeve top. I was boiling! So took my top off and spent a couple of minutes hiding my top in a suitable bush. This time was deducted from my total? Isn't that cheating a bit? All other runners were in tights, tops gloves etc so I must've looked dedicated/a bit simple.

    Forked out a tenner on some KT anti bister tape. Fairly helpful.

    Two months until my distance challenge, If it goes ahead. (Unlikely).

    Superb running all! Ocado have just arrived so I best help with the shopping! Stay well and safe.


  • Hmm all of those nice roast veggies JB.  And pud and cake..  Hope you are not too affected regarding your plans.  That would be a very fast 5k by the sounds of it.  Strong winds are a pain (unless at the rear of course).

    Great run LTT.  In a race with sensible pacing you would be likely to get that sub 1:50.  Good idea to fit your clothing to the effort.  I've dropped you a PM regarding Strava.  It is easier with a watch rather than with the phone app.  That is likely working with auto-pause - any visits to the bushes will be taken off. 

    Unmotivated loops around the village yesterday evening.  I was surprised to find it quite windy and drizzling when I went out as the afternoon had been still.  With the conditions as they were there where few people out and about which suited my mood somehow.  Splits were all over the place due to the sloping nature of the loop - the average came out as it should have done for a recovery run though and I worked by effort.  4.6 miles in just short of 42 minutes.  
  • john, yeah it's a shame we won't have parkrun over Christmas/NY, although they did announce they'd axed the NYD double anyway (a real shame, but numbers have increased exponentially so I can understand it).
    I had booked Knacker Cracker (a brutal NYD run around Box Hill, organised by Trionium, and usually done in fancy dress) to fill the void but that has now gone, sadly.

    Linton, I only joined Strava in the Spring, after my club did a virtual mob match with another club and they wanted evidence in Strava. I use the desktop version given I rarely use my mobile for anything other then texting, and then only a couple of times a year.
    I'll warn you know that you will become obsessed with segments. :D
    Do yourself a favour, though, and get yourself a Garmin. I mean, it's Christmas...give yourself a present?

    Good for getting out, Hazel...doesn't sound like nice conditions at all, but we run when we can, eh?

    Decent run today - 10 miles fartlek. Two slow miles to warm up and then varied my pace for the rest. No flat out sprints but did a few faster bits of varying duration and got some Strava segment PBs, which always cheers me up. Could feel the hamstring a bit by the end but it's not awful. I'll use the gun on it later.

  • john bateman 6john bateman 6 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2020
    Cal,

    Re Box Hill, I (think) I recall many years ago that Box Hill would be the only run in southern England that would have 'fell run' status. I've walked up it - that was tough enough. I feel your pain for all these cancellations but fear they are going to be with us for a while to come. Easter anyone?

    H'nut, I'm sure the weather plays a part in motivation. It's been raining almost solidly for 2 days here. Miserable!

    LTT - I'm not on Strava either! Your part of the word must be really at the sharp end: tier 4, 3000 lorries and Brexit to look forward to!
  • Strava segments are fun, I agree Cal.  I follow a few people from various threads on here and it is interesting to read about their training on here and look at the actual results.  I found LTT on there now.

    Nice bit of fartleking - I prefer a formal structured session as I quickly loose inspiration as to how to run which bit on a fartlek type run.  On an undulating course I will sometimes run the hills harder which could count I suppose.

    Easter at the earliest I fear JB.  2 days of rain is depressing. 

    I would normally have gone out with a couple of people yesterday evening but as it was a decent afternoon albeit breezy I decided to go out in daylight on my own instead.  I've worked out a nice fairly quiet loop in the local woods of around 5 miles so took that route.  There are some interesting looking side paths between the two arms of the loop so I will investigate those - probably later today.  I also put in 6 x strides towards the end. Bit under 6.5 miles in 56 minutes.  Was very mild - I was wearing (thin) tights which was a mistake - could quite happily have gone out in capris or in shorts even.  
  • Funny you say that, Hazel - I was out in shorts and a T-shirt today. Easyish 7 miles, starting in the dark and finishing in daylight a little before 9am. It did rain for the second half of the run but I didn't mind it much. Legs were sluggish at first but felt much better than I'd expected after yesterday's 10 - my bum was aching enough yesterday evening that I went out and walked a couple of miles to loosen it up a bit (and look at the Christmas lights and trees around the neighbourhood).

  • I'll join the current 6/7 mile club - which is long for me. I've not run a 10k for a while so I set myself  challenge to run 10Km in under 50 minutes. Managed 49.58 which is no great shakes time-wise but one of those runs where you get satisfaction from the way you've run it i.e. technically competent. (And in a bit of a wind.) This will be my last 10K before I hit 66 on Sunday, so nice to 'sign off' (not permanently I hope!) with a decent(ish)  effort.
    Will do something shorter on Xmas Day - probably the local Parkrun course, for old times sake.


  • Pre-emptive happy birthday then, John - I'd be thrilled with that 10K time and I'm a mere 53.

    Today I did a 5 mile recovery run, very slow. Still dark when I started but there was already a huge queue for the nice butcher shop in Balham, and queues were starting to form outside various shops in Streatham when I went past. Glad I don't have any more shopping to do.

    It's definitely colder and there was a sharp wind so I had leggings and a jacket on for this run.
    I'm intending to do a Christmas lights run tomorrow before dawn so really hoping it's not frosty, although temps are forecast to be 1 degree. Brrr!
  • Hi folks! Just popped in to say Happy Christmas!!!

    Managed to get home through the traffic bedlam created in Kent thanks to Brexit. One vast lorry park.  Poor guys, 6000 of them.

    2 runs to report; a 4.5 mile recovery and a 7.7 miler tonight in bitter wind. That hard effort on sunday has made me heavy legged.

    Thats a lovely idea Cal. Enjoy your early morning run. Sorry you couldnt stay at your friends.  I had 2 vests and a long sleeve, plus cap and gloves. Stay warm!  You're right I must get a Gps watch. It sounds daft though because I've run a couple thousand miles round here, half of which with a phone app, I know every mile marker every direction! But yes, must get a Garmin!

    Good running John B, that is a solid 10k time. I hope I'm still running in later life. Have a nice Xmas.

    Thanks for the Strava add Hazel! The segment bits are fun. I'm tempted to keep stopping and take photos, certainly looks hilly where you are compared to me.

    Hope you get some time off Guarddog and have a decent break.

    Enjoy tomorrow everyone.


  • Very cold here (hat, gloves, base layer, jacket...) but thankfully no frost on the pavements. I got up early and was out before 6. Ran up to Central London to see the Christmas lights. A bit disappointing that the Regent Street angels were turned off, although I did see them last year so at least I know what they looked like.Most other lights seem to be on. Leicester Square looks lovely and there are some nice trees around. County Hall looks nice with the rainbow lighting too.
    Saw more runners than expected (even early) but hardly any returned my greeting - miserable twats all in their own little world with their headphones on. Whatever happened to being in the moment?
    Anyway, 14 more miles logged. I'm closing in on 2000 and should make it by the end of the year.
    Happy Christmas all.
  • Good 10k JB, like your attitude, shouldn't always (just) be about getting time x.

    Nice early running Cal, hope you are doing ok on your own. Shame about the miserable other runners. Great mileage for the year.

    Feel sorry for those lorry drivers LTT. I read on the BBC that some clubs and volunteers stepped in to provide meals for them. Nice run from you too.

    Out late yesterday on what will likely become one of my standard routes - a 5 mile loop or lozenge around some local woodland. I need a new headtorch and / or new glasses as I was finding it hard to make out the stones in the path.

    Felt more sprightly today than in the last few days, so another 7.x on a down and back up the hill round. Quite a few people out, I nearly collided with a chocolate lab which shot out of a bush in front of me as I was enjoying a downhill bit. Just managed to brake in time. Pleased to be getting my confidence back in the trail shoes I had a bad fall in in August.

    Happy Christmas to all, we had a dusting of snow this morning so I'll count it as a white one.
  • I hope all have had an enjoyable day. We might all be a few pounds heavier.

    H'nut, well we all like a bit of chocolate at Xmas but not if it nearly breaks our legs! That sounds like a challenging workout.

    LTT, Kent looks like a nightmare. A no deal Brexit would have meant that those scenes would be the new normal, perhaps. But not now, we hope

    Cal, London usually looks so fabulous at Xmas. It's a shame when runners don't return a greeting. I can understand it if someone is mazing out for a  PB but otherwise a smile doesn't take too much energy. In my experience women are friendlier than male runners. 

    I too have noticed a dip in temperatures and we had a frost (pretty rare in these parts!). The prom was quite busy at 08.30 with runners and walkers. I did my 5K and was determined to dip under 23 and did so by 12 seconds - a kind of Xmas present to myself. This worked out as a 73.57% AG - my best for around 3 months, but still not as tiring as being beaten up by my 4 year old granddaughter!
  • Glad you had a good run, Hazel...I am always wary of falling over but then I'm managed to do it a fair bit this year.

    At least we have a deal of sorts now, John...
    Well done on your sub-23 - nice one! Also good that you got to see your granddaughter - a lot of people aren't able to see family at the moment.

    I did very little after my run yesterday - mostly eating and TV, really. My Christmas dinner was a chicken breast with pan fried sprouts and red cabbage and some potatoes, and then two thirds of a Christmas pudding meant for four people (sorry not sorry).
    I then remembered I had a bottle of mulled wine so my evening meal was half a bottle of that and a mince pie. :D

    I was intending to do a recovery run this morning and started in the dark hoping to catch some more local lights - unfortuantely a lot of people seem to turn them off when they go to bed but there were a few around. I'd settled on 7 miles as that would take me up to 1990, but 7 turned into 8 and I was still a bit of a way from home so carried on to 9 and then thought, sod it, may as well make it a round 10.
    Legs were mostly fine - a little achey in the bum and hamstrings but actually pretty good considering the fact that I've run five days on the trot and yesterday was 14.
    It was a very slow run, though - 1 hour 53 (which is more or less my HM PB) - I am usually do a 10 mile training run in around 1:45 or so. First miles were almost 12 minute pace - super slow - but I got a little quicker in the second half (still not quick, mind you - fastest mile was 10:39).

    I will likely rest tomorrow, what with it being windy, but I'll see how bored I get.
    I'm 7 miles off 2000 now - might even make 2020 by the end of the year.
  • Cal, 2000+ miles would take me about 4 years worth of running! Seriously: well done.
  • Great wava JB.  Nice pressie to yourself.  

    Nice dinner Cal.  Hand over the last third of that pudding please.  2020 sounds doable in the next days for you.  Slow sounds good if you are running more days on the trot at the moment and a fourteen followed by a 10 is good mileage as well.  Don't want to start 2021 with an injury.  

    I'm on a ridiculous 2600 plus at the moment after 2320 last year.  With streaking since the end of March and no big races to taper and recover from I have well missed my target of not increasing my mileage again as I had planned.  

    6 miles yesterday evening with 10 x efforts.  Around 200m up an incline (wasn't really a hill) concentrating on form.  I had aimed for a minimum of 6 repeats so was pleased with 10.  Met one seemingly slightly drunk elderly gentleman out with his rolled walker thingy who heckled me to run faster.  Hmm.. 
  • H'nut, another runner with a terrific annual mileage! I'm not sure the drunk qualifies for the descriptor of 'gentleman' - other words come to mind!

    Terrific overnight storm down here - a few trees uprooted and fences down but not ours thankfully.

    Celebrated my birthday wit a slow 11km with my training partner. And the sun came out to share the celebrations too.
  • Hi folks! Hope Christmas was pleasant, a bit weird this year for all, but at least I wasn't working.  It was nice in the end with various zoom meet ups with parents/in laws and family time.  

    I did (by my standards) a cracking run today.  Maybe it was a couple of days off work, or my 5000 calorie a day pre-run fuelling, but it went well.

    I've finally sorted my blisters, with a combination of KT blister tape, and some Rymora running compression socks, (great) so that's good! as they really can spoil a run.

    Anyway, wanted to do 10, but felt fresh, so thought I'd make it a half, felt Ok, so threw in a loop to make it 15 miles, in 2:15. Most miles were 8:xx, but the last couple were cool down miles nearer 10.  There was a 1:55ish half in there and a 1:27 10 mile. 15 miles is long way for me!, so pleased with that.  Just hope I can stay injury free and keep chipping away.

    The only spoiler was a small section where I have to run in the road, on a very slight bend.  I tucked myself tight into the hedge, but someone came flying along and missed me by centimetres.  Very, very dodgy.  It was bright sunshine so assume they were updating Facebook/daydreaming.  Will avoid that loop from now on.  

    Happy birthday John, always nice to have a birthday run.  I have an antique barometer in the lounge (for fishing) and to watch it in freefall last not was really something!  I finally settled around 970!  It was a hefty old storm, and meant starting my run about 10:00, instead of earlier, but like you say, it was pleasant afterwards, 9 degrees.  Nice 5k!  Now I have Strava I can finally have a crack at that mile PB.

    That is some mileage Hazlenut! I aim for 100 a month, but lost 3 full months.  Nice repeats!

    That is also awesome mileage Cal!  I'm really going to try and do my runs, (like you) very early as I spend half my runs on the pavement/half in the road (distancing) trying to not give us runners a bad name, today shook me up a bit.  That is a great streak of runs and mileage.

    Stay safe all, re-watching Berlin marathon 19 with a big home-made pie. A good day all round.





  • LTT, that's a very impressive run both in terms of overall distance and 'landmark' times. Where are you in your 'running career'? Are you still hunting for PBs or are you now looking for age grade PBs? I was lucky to discover the 5k distance via Parkruns when I was in my late 50s. Although I'd already been running for 25 years, I'd never done a 5K. I also discovered it was my favourite (i.e. best) distance and so I was clocking PBs at 61. However after that it was a matter of age graded PBs only for me.
  • Ha ha Hazelnut. They're called a rollator - my dad had one after his stroke.
    Fantastic mileage there - I imagine there's a huge amount of elevation, too.

    Happy birthday, John! 5Ks can be brutal but at least they're over with fairly quickly. 10Ks are much worse...almost the same level of effort but for twice as long.

    LTT, that's an excellent run! You thoroughly deserved that pie.

    Took a rest yesterday (walked 3 miles in the morning to clear my head and got hailed on, then another 3 after sunset to see a few more streets' worth of lights). Waited until 11am to go out today due to frost so there were an irritating number of small kids on bikes and scooters on the common and I hit the side streets as soon as I could. Anyway, I banged out the required 7 miles even though legs felt quite heavy, which takes me to the magic 2000. 🎉 I'm going to try and do another 20 by the end of the year but I don't think I'll try and replicate this mileage next year - it's been rather hard on the old bod. Hamstring is still pretty gnarly. I've the Virtual EA 10K tomorrow so hopefully it'll be OK for that, at least.
  • Hi John, I'm 42 and have been running 2 years now, almost to the day.  I played football for many years prior to that, so came to it with passable fitness and was able to run a half decent 5 and 10k off the bat.  My endurance however, was terrible!  

    When I got up to half marathon distance, jogging a 2:15ish half would absolutely wipe me out.  I feel it's taken 2 years to start turning the corner a bit endurance wise, it has seemed to take me a long time, but am just starting to be able to hold a sensible pace over two hours.

    It's daft really, because with the correct training I think I could be a reasonable 5k and 10k runner, but I would love to bag a sensible (4/4.5hr) marathon just once!! I definitely find distance running harder work than some, but have improved a good bit in the last 2 years.

    That is a huge yearly mileage Cal, well done for getting out.  Good luck in your 10k tomorrow, a virtual 10k sounds like it will be tough indeed.
  • Thanks LTT: you've got plenty of time to reach new goals (no pun intended). I've only done 3 marathons in 35 years of 'serious' running and in each of them I've underperformed hopelessly. I try not to let it get to me!

    Cal, good luck with the virtual 10k. As per your observation on this distance I know a couple of really decent runners who absolutely hate 10K. Back in the day, the formula for your predicted 10K time used to be 2x5K+1 minute. Mine is more like 2x5K+3 mins! 
  • Sorry JB, forgot your birthday yesterday - hope you had a nice one around the run too. 25 years and still going strong is a good running career.  Hmm I think I will stick to 10k rather than 5k - my conversion down is pretty rubbish.  

    Good luck with the virtual 10k Cal.    Congrats on the 2000.  If there is a hope of a return to racing then I will likely drop down my mileage as well and go for more quality again.  That is not likely to happen for months yet though (the racing, I should probably do more quality and less mileage anyway).

    Nice chatty posts LTT.  Well done on the 15 miler!  Glad you avoided that collision - please take care.  If you had watched Berlin 2018 I might have trotted past on your screen.  2 years isn't a long time in running terms - lots of time for improvement timewise and for looking into running more maras too.   

    14 miles for me yesterday - first time I've been over the half distance in a few weeks.  It being cold (-1) I didn't take much notice of pace or distance other than registering the km beeps as my watch was well hidden under my sleeve.   Route was basically trot down a long hill, do a short flat loop and then back up the hill with some 400m of descent and climb in total.  All the hills I've been doing since moving seem to be slowly taking effect as they are starting to feel a bit easier and don't leave me too tired the next day.  Not having had too much food pre-run I decided to take a snack - rather than a gel I tucked a few dried apricots in a poly bag and munched those during a short walking break.  Went down very well don't know if I could chew them on the run though.  

    Today's run (4.x miles, recovery) wasn't so great. Started off nicely as we now have a few inches of snow - where the paths / roads have not been cleared currently nice to run on as still soft and powdery.  First incident was a loose dog taking dislike to my person - it didn't bite but I don't think it was far off it.  Certainly some aggressive work with the nose.  The owners were sufficiently apologetic (didn't hear me on the snow) and I didn't make a big thing of it.  Someone less experienced with dogs and the wrong reaction might have got bitten though.    About a km later I was on a badly cleared road with a sloping sharp turn and my feet shot off with no chance of staying upright.  Cue a heavy landing right on my tailbone and a lot of cursing.  Got up and running again though in some discomfort.  Pretty sore this evening to do anything - could be interesting tomorrow.  Just ordered a set of Yaktrax for the woodland roads at least (tend to be an icy nightmare as well).  

    Take care if you do get some of the white stuff.            
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