P&D Spring Marathon 2021

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  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    edited February 2021
    SQ - i lined up on the track at start of yeovil mara in 2018 ( id missed vlm due to hammy issue, and i was walking in this one after half of lap 1 of 2 due to same issue), some bloke with a buggy puts himself on front row, so i said to myself, "that knob with the buggy will get in everyone's way having gone to the front......he came top 3 ish in 2.4X, at Abo 2018 someone (from Bristol?), set a record with a double buggy and came past me heading nicely sub 3.
  • Hamo - that’s a great initiative by your club. An interesting point I heard was that the  marginal gain from a fasted long run is probably lost by running that session with insufficient fuel and not performing it to your best, who said running was simple 🤣

    Another good MLR in the bank TR.  Lots of reasons not to bike this time of year but for me cold hands is the top one.

    Jools - sounds like a decent amount of elevation with a couple of hard efforts, good work.  I’m not a fan of running with a phone so have to try and remember the segments to.

    Cal - a lower mileage week won’t do any harm.  Hopefully both will be on and you can choose which you prefer.

    in this new world I think key training sessions are my new races.  
  • JohnOzJohnOz ✭✭✭
    Cal - good work on the snowy runs. Would have been a good workout even at the slower pace, similar to how sand running strengthens the ankles and calves I guess! Reminds me of running in Japan last Jan when it was thick with snow, loved it as it was mostly soft and fresh. Seems so long ago now. 

    Hamo - good km reps and MLR combo. You got some good paces there as well despite the weather so knock a few seconds off for the conditions. Interesting nutrition talk, did she say what sort of runs you should fuel first? Would guess the hard ones to make sure you can hit the paces but easy ones not so much?

    Jools - great work on the segment hunting. I’m surprised you find so many, would have thought you had most of the local ones!

    SQ - the race is about 2 hours away so last time I got up at 4 and drove over, ran the race and drove back. Long day but the family isn’t coming so want to minimise the time there. Keen to see how the 1080v11s are. I also love the v10s, am up to 1200km on mine although just for the TM now. On my 4th pair of Reebok Floatride Energy v2 now and they are a pretty good substitute for long or easy runs. 

    Macca - rapid 7@LT and well done on the PB. All those Fly5ks are paying off! Good luck with the 50k, wrap up well. 

    You inspired me to do the same session again today as I felt I had unfinished business after last week. Felt a bit cooler and fresher and managed to get it done at around 6:24mm pace, faster than last week  and only ran to HR. Probably the only time I’ve ever done that workout feeling good at the end. This replaced a tune up race and followed up some VO2 work and a hilly MLR so it’s been a good week. Will have to see if any of this translates well for my trail marathon though!

  • Cal...Good work getting out the door, and pushing the mileage on when you weren't feeling it.

    TR...Few frothies is optimal fuelling :lol: Nice MLR, agreed, hopefully the temps improve.

    SQ...2.31 is lightening even without a buggy :astonished: serious. Nice buggy running as always, "enjoy" the reps. Agreed the wind is becoming annoying now :lol:

    Macca... :lol: it is anything but simple when it comes to marginal gains. Agreed, key sessions will be the pointers in this block alright, i'd imagine there will be no tune up races to even try and enter.

    John...Yea, she said long runs especially should be pre fuelled (she disagrees that fasted long runs can help (something i do), and argues the point that Macca made above), and fuel for sessions too. Easy running is ok with specifically fuelling. But her main point was that whether you fuel specifically for a run isn't all that significant in the big picture, but its more about getting the calories that you are burning (or planning to burn) in during a day as calorie deficit can really effect performance. And that as "athletes" we are different to the "normal" population in that getting a big whack of calories in one go from a "bad source" (ie mcdonalds, cakes, milkshakes etc) isn't a bad thing like you are lead to believe, in it fact helps, as you couldn't eat "good/clean" and get 4000 calories in or you'd be eating all day. So don't be stressing over eating the "wrong" foods, calories, when running 100 miles a week, is the main thing, doesn't matter where they are coming from. And as long as its part of an overall balanced diet shes all for it. One of the mistakes she sees, for example, is people not considering an evening run followed by a morning run as a short time period in between, instead think of it as 2 separate days, and that the calorie clock resets to 0 at midnight if you like, which it doesn't. Her example was some people eat a light dinner so as not to be bloated then run in the evening (say a hard club session), maybe have a light snack, sleep and up in the morning to run again before breakfast, so all their fuel is used up by the evening run, and not replaced. She argues if you are doing that, you need to pre plan, have a big breakfast and an even bigger lunch to boost the fuel on the day of the evening run, then milkshake, cake etc (if that's all you can stomach after, ideally a good dinner though), something light but high calories to boost the fuel again before bed if that makes sense. And as soon as the morning run is done straight into breakfast to help aid muscle recovery. My big takeaway from it was that a pint of milk after a run alongside my usual water really helps, as you are hydrating but also getting a hit of protein, calcium and calories that you wouldn't get with just water. It was interesting, and i hope what I've babbled there actually makes sense. 
    That is a very good week, well done. Always a very good sign to get quicker over that workout and feel good at the end of it too. Class.


    11 miles with 6 at LT pace for me this morning. Decided to head down to the tow path for the first time in a while for this, not sure if it was a mistake or not. First 3 miles where into a 30+ mph headwind, but felt controlled and at the right effort so battled through it, but was glad of the tail wind when i turned :lol: . The LT miles averaged 5.35's so slightly down on what i wanted, but a good honest effort none the less, and i am happy with it.
  • Interesting about fasted runs. I do most of my runs fasted as I have a dodgy stomach - it takes me hours to digest anything and even then I can get reflux or discomfort. Yesterday I went out late (12ish) and by breakfast was burning my stomach the whole time. But today I ate at 6 and went out around 10 and I was OK.

    I wasn't going to run today but I looked at the weather forecast and today was less freezing than tomorrow (it's going to be -5 again, brrr). So I left it until 10 and the sun was out by that point, although it was still freezing. I managed something of a tempo - two miles to warm up and then I attempted marathon pace. First MP mile was a couple of seconds slow but the second was a bit slower due to battling into an icy headwind (not as strong as yours, hamo, but still slowed me down). After that I picked up a bit and managed the other two in the 8:40s which is close to HMP so I was content with that.

    6 miles in all...hamstring didn't much like it but it should be better once it's warmer next week.
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    Macca - agreed, you are finding motivation with beating previous sessions.

    Well done john that was a toughie

    Hamo - i still run early on weekdays fasted, but always have cereal before a long run, and take gels and luco on long long runs, i see it as practice, preparing my stomach and starting the recovering before ive finished......its commiting me to drinks and gels in a marathon, but thats fine.

    Cal - breakfast at 6 running at 10 is running fasted for me!

    6m easy this morning, had a sense of humour fail with the minus stupid temps again (-4 at work) and windchill. Need to decide upon didging ice in the lanes tomorrow but less windchill, or more windchill next to the coast........I'll have a few frothies later and decide.
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    The lanes with a bit less windchill was the decision, was still gruesome out though, so thought it best to get a shove on to keep warm in a mp+10% way, ended up too quick with 5 easy, 12 av 6.52, 3 easy. But felt pretty comfy. Glad thats bagged, first 20 of the year too.
  • Very strong run, TR. I miss 20s!

    Lots of food for though (haha) there, hamo. Over the last year, I have often woken at six, run about eight and then breakfast about 10 or wait until an early lunch. So lots of genuinely fasted running. It works well for me as a diabetic - the long period without good is perhaps unsurprisingly the most stable blood sugar wise. That said, I take your point about not constantly hammering the system with it. So he my eggs then ran this morn 😆. Super that your club are putting those on. 

    John - I hear quite a bit of chat about the Reeboks on Show Geeks. But they have zero publicity here, or at least none I’m aware of. Might give them a try sometime if they are good value. Wore the NB 1080v11s this morn for 7M recovery at 8:28 pace. All good. One of those straight out the box perfect mileage type shoes. Look a little more normal than the v10s as well. 

    Macca - if key training sessions are your new races, then it shows you love the process. You definitely get our sport right. 
  • Well done, TR - a 20 miler in this weather shows you have good mental fortitude.
    John, great week's training from you.

    Rest yesterday so I dragged myself out for a long run today. Legs felt stiff and it was cold and grey and the wind was bitter when it blew, though fortunately it wasn't constant. The pavements were mostly fine but there were a few places where it was ice but, as it was a Sunday morning, I was able to run into the road to avoid it where necessary.
    I decided to treat myself to Anerley Hill (which runs along Crystal Palace Park) since I'd run down it last weekend but had never run up it. I almost did a reverse of last weekend's route, running down to South Norwood, only I ran around South Norwood Country Park rather than trying to cut through it, due to the mud and standing water.
    It was a pretty boring route, mostly along main roads, since I figured I'd have the best chance of avoiding ice, but it was also a mostly new route.
    I didn't check my Garmin except every now and then for distance so I was pleasantly surprised to see my pace had improved - only one mile over 11 (which had 53m of climb) and a few sub-10s on the downhill parts coming home - an average of 10:21 for the whole run.
    That takes me to 40 miles for this week, which is decent for a cutback. I'm over 300 for the year now.

  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    edited February 2021
    SQ - those NB 1080 are well reviewed, if i ever see a pair on offer I'll give them a go. I bought a pair of Pegasus 37 recently, i had pegasus 1 back in the day, so have tried the 35 and 36, which have both been ok but nothing great. The 37 are good, i did my 20 in them yday and liked them.

    Well done cal, it was still pretty cold and windy out there today. Macca said he was goung to do 50k yday, so i told myself if he can do 50 then i can do.my planned 20m. Cheers macca

    7m easy today, legs were a little tired and had achey calves (probably from the different long run shoes, but pretty good considering my first 20 for a while. Aim to push on a little just in case Dorney call my bluff.
  • Definitely warmer today, thank goodness. Yesterday's run left me quite sore (not sure if it was the cold, the slightly faster pace or the hills) so I thought I'd give the old recovery run a go as it seemed to work well last time. Did 4 miles. Ice has all gone but the flood by the playground on Tooting Common is back so I got wet feet again. Ugh.
  • SorequadsSorequads ✭✭✭
    edited February 2021
    Interestingly, TR, Peg 35 were my first pair. Loved them so bought 37s - but haven’t enjoyed them so much. Although certainly used to them now. 
    Super start to 2021, Cal. 
    A good week 11/12 of the plan: 61M with 5 x 1k on Friday (6:11 down to 6:04 pace) then 13.4M buggy on Sunday at 7:21 pace. Genuinely wonder if, with the right route and favourable conditions, I could push my way to a sub 90 half. 
    Easy week ahead before having a crack at a 5k at some point Friday - Sunday. Super windy the whole time, c’est la vie. 
    5M buggy soft surface recovery today. 8:40s. First spot of t short weather for a good while. 
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    Cal - hope the floods soon drain away

    SQ - i seem to get a bit of right hammy tightness when the Pegs are new ? I reckon you could go sub 90, you are sub 80 normally.

    14m home tonight, no rain or ice. Did get rained on cycling in this morning though.
  • John - well done on going back to the 7@LT, feeling good at the end is a good sign.  I reckon bang for buck they are a good session, 1 per plan is probably enough though.

    Cal -more than decent cut back week last.  Sorry about the wet feet, I think I’d take cold and wind over wet feet.

    TR - You’re welcome.  Very strong 20 especially if it felt comfy.  I can’t even tell which way my gut feeling is with Dorney.  Locally numbers are going in the right direction but I guess it’s what happens if or when lockdown is released.  

    SQ - I remain impressed with the buggy running I see on Strava.  Right now I’d bite the hand off that offered me a half marathon just to see where I am.  I feel I should caveat that with big picture and more important things but in a running context....Agree with TR, sub 90 should be in reach 

    Hamo - thanks for sharing the fuelling info, does make sense.  I love a milkshake after a run, good to hear we shouldn’t stress too much where the cals come from (within a decent diet etc).  I don’t know the science but understand that what you lose battling into the wind is more than what you gain with the wind.  Good effort.

    Sat was the 50k. I tried to get into race mode, swapping beer/wine for porridge the night before.  As part of the entry I’d also taken a random twist, mine being run every 10k faster.  I started especially conservatively to leave room to speed up but it was cold and when I took gloves off to eat it was a struggle to get them back on as my fingers were useless.  As I sped up things got a bit warmer, the 10ks went 50min, 48mins, then I stopped for some photos and only just made the next 10k quicker with a 47min.  I probably took too much off the next 10k, 44mins but I was struggling to convert mile pace into km distance. Normally everything is in miles but I wanted the 10k markers on the watch.   Anyway, whatever I had left went into the last 10k for a 43min and job done just under 4hrs.  The progression bit and messing about in kms really made time fly and whilst these virtual things aren’t everyone’s cup of tea, it did feel of being a part of something bigger.  
  • What a super way to run 50k, Macca. Chunking it down sounds like it really helped. Impressive stuff!

    Sorry Macca and TR, I wasn’t very clear. I’d beach myself to run sub 90 tomorrow, just wondering if it’s doable with the buggy!
  • Ha ha, I did wonder when you typed “push”.  More of a challenge for sure but with the bearings well oiled and everyone at race weight, you’ve only got to find 30s per mile.
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    Macca - top bombing, progressive 50km, great way to pass the time.......i thought Dorney had no chance, but theres talk of golf and tennis in March, so possibly a CV safe mara? If it was May it'd have more chance, but we should know more this time next week.

    SQ - go for it, you certainly look to be in decent nick. Find a nice slick tarmac route.
  • Macca, that's terrific. I've just finished Mimi Anderson's book and she talks about getting absolutely hammered on wine the night before doing the Grand Union Canal ultra and she still somehow managed to have a good race despite waking up drunk. (So maybe a little wine the night before isn't quite so bad!)

    I had a hard time motivating myself this morning (yesterday's recovery run didn't have quite the same effect as the previous one as I was shuffling round like an 80 year old when I got up) so I didn't go out until midday. I did a straightforward 6 miler at the faster end of easy and got warm enough I ended up shedding my running wanker arm sleeves halfway and finishing in just a T-shirt. Still wearing long leggings as hammy is still being a little sod, but would have felt quite comfortable in shorts, I think. I'll certainly dig them out when it gets even warmer next week.
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    edited February 2021
    Im quite used to having a few snifters the night before a long run or weekend race, i only refrain for a mara.

    10m last night, 9m commute inc 6m tempo i sometimes do this morning, which came out ar 40.52. From memory i thought that was pretty crap, but turns out its average for a slow day (today was wet and windy day), 40.00 is decent and 39.20 was my record just before Abo 2019. So solid enough today as it was uphill and upwind at the same time on somes parts. Sub 40 is the aim in a few weeks.
  • Sorry to be a numbnut but what’s the difference between a pnd marathon and London Marathon?
  • JooliganJooligan ✭✭✭
    edited February 2021
    London is a marathon race/event whereas P&D is a training model.
    Pfitzinger & Douglas wrote Advanced Marathoning several (17?) years ago for runners who’ve run a marathon or two & now want to improve their times.
    The 3rd edition came out in 2019
  • I resolved not to drink before a race after a miserable GNR a few years ago, obviously doesn’t apply post race,

    Well done Cal - lol at the arm sleeves.

    TR - looks good to me in the conditions and post late night run.  I see on FB they are saying Dorney is good to go as long as regs/law alllow.

    I was feeling quite smug about dodging the rain today, then it re-started with about 5m left of the 15.  Disappointed to get the 2 day old peg 37s wet but hey ho.  Only 2x15m mid week MLRs to go.
  • I didn't feel up to running yesterday - tired with a scratchy throat (I'm not sick but sometimes I get a slight sore throat, I think when I've been pushing it and sleep's not been awesome). Even though last week was lower mileage, I had some big weeks and a lot of hills before it so body needed a bit of rest, still.
    Anyway, got myself out this morning for my MLR. Weather forecast wasn't promising - wind and rain - but it actually turned out to be lovely. Mild and sunny for most of it.
    My hamstring, hip and glute were pretty awful but I felt quite good apart from that and managed 12 miles between 10 and 10:30 pace which is a lot more like it (especially as I threw in four good hills).
    I treated myself to a fresh pair of kicks (still Epic Reacts - I have one more pair after this before I have to go shoe shopping again) as the ones I've been wearing have nearly 1000 miles on them. I expected them to feel a lot bouncier but there wasn't a huge amount of difference and my feet got quite sore (I think the flyknit needs to relax a bit).
    I compared the new pair to the old ones and the foam has compressed a bit in the old pair, and there's a little wear on the forefoot, but other than that they're not bad at all. There's no wear at all on the heel (but since I'm not a heel striker I'm not surprised).
  • Thank you Jooligan, guess I’ve got more to learn about running than I thought
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    Macca - well done on the 15m, a distance I havnt run as an mlt for a while. I feel for you on the trainers, had  brand new pair of Ride 13s delivered to work today, run home in them and had an ankle deep paddle at one of the usual damp spots due to all the rain this week......apparently there will be a push to encourage fitness with golf and tennis etc back quite quickly, not sure where that leaves CV safe racing, id be pretty confident if it was early May instead of April.

    Cal - those trainers have held up well, i can usually feel a big difference when i put a new pair on.

    10m home tonight.
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    Bobby - left after right, repeat regularly, simple.
  • Well done on the MLRs today folks.
    Awesome 50K Macca. 👏👏
    Obviously hasn’t taken too much out of you if you’re knocking out a midweek 15 already.
    Beautiful day here, if a little windy.
    After another big week (84.6M@8:04 & 7,500’) I’ve been taking it slightly easier: 9.6, 9.1, 8.5 & 8.5 so far. The 9s were both slow but the pace picked up yesterday & again today. 
  • Not good news for me I'm afraid. My proximal hamstring tendinopathy has taken a turn for the worse. A while after my run yesterday it really started giving me gip when I caught my foot on something walking around my flat, my slight stumble sent a bolt of pain through my hip that made me yelp. 
    So I'll have to take some time off and really focus on the rehab stuff. I don't know how long it'll take to settle this time but I guess we'll see.
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    edited February 2021
    Thats not good cal, can you get a physio appointment, i think they are working?

    9m inc 30min of 30sec/30sec, body groans but hopefully it'll toughen me up longer term.

    Few frothies later to prepare for tomorrows long run.
  • Bad luck Cal. Good luck with the rehab.
    That’s 30 strides then TR.
    Meant to say before Hamo: thanks for sharing the diet/nutrition advice. I’ll carry on enjoying the cake then. 
    OH made a lush carrot cake yesterday with mascarpone icing so that’s got everything necessary for a balanced diet.😆
    Another 8.5M & 900’ today in blustery conditions. Reversed the route from Wed/Thurs which definitely gives better views. Threw in a few seg efforts totalling 7 minutes of hard work in the 68 minute outing. Improved my times on all of them 😎 
    Brings my streak to 💯 n.o. 
    My previous longest was 114 back in 2015 when I ended it with a 7 minute PB at Brighton Marathon earning my 1st GFA time for London.
    Took another 7 minutes off in 2016 but been stuck there ever since.
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