Sub 3

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Comments

  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    Wardi - we had some floodinh here too overnight

    SJ - nice one, 6.40s is about the quickest i can go in my mp runs. By the time you get to the 13m you'll have got even quicker.

    Today was solid enough, indicates low 2.5Xs fitness, esp if the autumn maras are normal format, so we can run in groups etc today wont require the recovery a mara would need, so an easy week and then i can press on for Brighton/vlm, we'll find out in a couple of weeks wether those races are on again or not.

    Time for a frothy or 2, yday i was on the 0% for the footy.
  • JooliganJooligan ✭✭✭
    More solid paces SJ. You've really soaked up this training block well.
    Good mileage Wardi.
    More than decent Half TR. How were the shoes?
    Hope you shake the cold quickly TT - you were progressing nicely.
    How'd the CWR go Joolska? We had 3 teams & all reported anomalies with their times due to malfunctioning tech. Paper, pen & stopwatch for me every time.
    Enjoyed a fortnight of shorter runs post SWT then drove to the Lakes Friday to take part in my annual Triathlon: the Half X.
    Wasn't expecting great things having only swum once a week for the last 2 months after 22 months off & barely doing any biking either.
    Headed into the water a few minutes before 8am

    Came out after 40:47 in about 40th place after swimming across Windermere to Brathay & back from Waterhead, so not great but not a disaster.

    Did my usual faffing in T1 so didn't leave til 45:24 but hadn't lost any places as most others were equally relaxed about this part of the event.
    The OH was supporting again & she greeted me with hot coffee in T1 then headed up to the summit of Wrynose Pass which I'd pass twice on the bike at 23M & again at 47M. This was her view :D 

    As you can imagine she was a tonic to all of us with her enthusiastic whoops, cheers, sustenance & hot drinks.
    I stopped for a couple of minutes each time.
    Going out:

    Coming back with Jelly Legs having done Hardknott both ways!

    As you can see the roads were a little damp :D 

    Back to T2 after 4:45:02 for the 22nd fastest split of the day. I'd survived without coming off (unlike several others) or snapping anything on the bike.
    The last K or so of the bike overlaps with the 1st K of the run & I spotted several competitors who'd recently begun their final leg so knew I'd have some targets to aim at. Still spent an inordinately long time in T2 but no-one else arrived before I left.
    I then started hunting folk down. The first 2.3M of the run is almost flat but then it kicks up viciously with 1800' over 2M before a flattish mile then another 1000' in 1.3M to the summit of Fairfield. You then turn & retrace your steps back to Transition.
    After 1.5M the lead man passed me heading back for a stunning 6:01 finish!
    I caught & passed my first on the steep steps up to Nab Scar and then another at Heron Pike & again at Great Rigg. By now we were in thick clag so I had no idea how far the summit was or whether I was closing on anybody. Approaching the summit half a dozen runners came down encouraging me by telling me it was less than 400m away.
    I got to the top, posed for this pic & then caught all bar 2 of them on the descent then held them off on the flat to finish in 17th overall & 12th fastest run time.

    Enjoyed a nice sit down at the finish line cheering everyone in afterwards

    Had a great day but I would love to do this race in the dry again. I'm sure I've got a sub 8 in me with the right training & better weather so I may well be back next year.
  • saintjasonsaintjason ✭✭✭
    Jooligan - quite simply 'nailing it' at the moment and doing so with a big smile on your face. Top, top work and only a couple of weeks after the mamouth ultra. 

    TR - snap on the 0%. Quite like the Brooklyn offering that Tesco sell. Hope the real ones went down well last night. 
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    Sj - i was on the 0% moretti sarurday, proper leaded Perroni yday.

    Jools - youve been on some adventures recently, cracking effort, you must be in good nick.........undecided on the shoes, worn them twice and have rhe feeling id run quicker in my rides (which are much firmer), but legs are real fresh today, and (super importantly) my OP wasnt stirred up yday, as it usually would be. I guess id need to run a mara in them which is when the gains should be seen.

    Bizarre this end, as i feel super fresh, with no smoked feeling which id usually expect the day after a 1/2. Ran 5m home, could have done more. Guess im too much of a diesel at the mo to be able to run quickly.

    Todays govt announcement might mean autumn maras are good to go? With the loosening of restrictions, but not the end of isolation for the double jabbed, i can see myself having to isolate again the way infection rates are going.
  • saintjasonsaintjason ✭✭✭
    edited July 2021
    Interesting thoughts on the shoes (pressume some edition of the Nike carbons?) The debate  crops up on my club WhatsApp groups and group training runs weekly. 

    So much so I've been reading reviews and watching comparison videos. I've even taken the Saucony Speeds for a few outings recently. Not carbon for those not familiar but do have Saucony speedroll tech and a plastic plate in the midsole. 

    Great that your legs feel so fresh TR. That is the biggest takeaway for me in this discussion. The fact some of the load is being offset must be good for the joints and tendons. The counter argument being the legs are missing out on important recruitments if worn too often. 

    I think I'm coming round to the idea. It's not as if we're not training bloody hard is it? You still need the lungs and heart to maintain pace. 

    I'm being tempted by the Saucony offering since they are currently £150 at snow&rock and in reviews they are considered more durable compared to the Nike's if not as fast. Being frugal I'm inclined to get the offer and more mileage 😂
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    edited July 2021
    SJ - i used the Next%2. I have used my speeds for 2 sessions of 3min reps, id need to do a tempo in them next. But they are a bit narrow, so not sure if the Pro are for me....however i might respond better to them, i wonder if i dont run quick enough for the Next%? I certainly dont feel any magic increase in pace, just a cushioned shoe. I'll try a tempo in the speeds and see how they go, i was sore after using them for the reps.
  • saintjasonsaintjason ✭✭✭
    The Speeds do pinch me a little on my pinky toe and the one next to it so yes a narrow fit in the toe box due to the tapering. I wore them on the steady 13 miler last friday as a tester. They were ok but another 13 miles in them might be pushing it. They do feel fast and light compared to the rides for me that's for sure - once you are up on your toes and striding out. 

    The Next% have a range of gains from none to 5% tested in a lab setup. That is the main criticism from what I can gather. THey are freely available to all but the range of responders is as above. Therefore, not strictly a level playing field. 
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    edited July 2021
    Yep, thats the Speeds fit for me too.

    If i was to wear the Next% (or speeds) for one of my mp runs on the usual course then that would be the best comparison.
  • WardiWardi ✭✭✭
    edited July 2021
    I don't see carbon shoes as any different to the introduction of clip in bike pedals back in the day TBH.  As long as the technology is available to all (despite the expense!) then all is surely fair.🤔

    Jooligan.. a fine write up & pics, a decent finishing position too.  Shame about the conditions but sounds like the journey north was worth it.

    TR..  good to hear your legs haven't had a battering, and yes indeed fingers crossed for the autumn races.

    5m easy today, the puddles on the trails have certainly got bigger!
  • JooliganJooligan ✭✭✭
    The comparison doesn’t stack up Wardi.
    Most scientific studies find that cleated bike shoes only increase maximum power output for 30s or so but then lead to quicker fatigue.
    Link: https://pedalchile.com/blog/clipless-differences
    Whereas the Nike system has a massive variation in benefit that makes them unfair Wardi
    SJ’s under-reporting the % gain variability in running economy. The figures were 0-8% for the 4%. If it were 3-5 it’d still be hugely significant but that’s on another level.
    Great podcast here https://play.acast.com/s/realscienceofsport/theshoethatbrokerunningii-theendofintegrity
    If they protect your legs as much as most claim then the ability to progressively build training will be accelerated. This effect seems to be more universal so as a training shoe they’re a fairer additional to the arsenal, especially for us older athletes for whom recovery is a far more protracted affair.
    It’s probably the reason your legs are feeling so good though TR. I certainly wondered how my legs would’ve fared in Next% at 20M in my last marathon.
    Each to their own but I wouldn’t feel right about any PB I obtained in them so I won’t race in them. Just as I wouldn’t take steroids or EPO. I’ve seen the effects of switching shoe on far too many local runners not to believe they make all the difference. 
  • OuchOuchOuchOuch ✭✭✭
    edited July 2021
    Jooligan - Indefatigable!  I said I hoped you make a good recovery, you were  racing the Half X.  Chapeau.

    I've never raced in them but I am relying on the special shoes to keep my sub 3 streak going! As time marches on, I sure need those extra few minutes. 
  • WardiWardi ✭✭✭
    edited July 2021
    The problem at club level I guess is if runners do indeed get a few minutes faster over a marathon or half in the carbon shoes.  The number of runners achieving qualifying times, GFA etc for the likes of London, Boston & Berlin will surely rise.  Therefore the bar will surely rise?

    I wonder how many runners who, a few years ago, said they would never wear Nike again due to their use of sweatshops, the Salazar effect etc - have conveniently changed their minds for the sake of the carbon tech.  I also wonder how many of the 'I would never pay more than £80 for a new pair of trainers' brigade have relented? :)
  • JooliganJooligan ✭✭✭
    Of course Wardi. Therefore if they become essential pieces of kit (for a significant number) to get such a coveted place then Nike is all the wealthier for it. Drug addicts feel the same way.
    I will suffer for my stance I'm sure but hey ho. Anyway enough soapboxing.
    4M on the track yesterday with 3'/2' & 1' intervals - not the quickest but got the legs turning at least & another 4 so far today with some mild undulations thrown in.
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    Well i obviously dont get much of a boost from the shoes, or i did and I'm really a lot slower  than I'd like to think, think i prefer the lack of boost. I knew i shouldnt have bought my shoes off a bloke in a sheepskin coat down the market.......im going to do some comparison tempo runs over the coming weeks, i know how fast i usually do my work commute tempo.

    As i get older being competitive in my AG has become of interest as has uk rankings, both of those are affected by the shoes.

    10m easy peasy pace rainy commute this morning.
  • JooliganJooligan ✭✭✭
    You proved to yourself you can still go sub3 unassisted last time out TR.
    It’ll be interesting to see if training in them for your faster runs leaves your legs fresher at the back end of this Brighton campaign. If so they’re worth the investment even if they’re not your choice of racing shoe. Difference in price probably works out similar to a visit to the fizz.
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    edited July 2021
    Im interested to see if i think they work or not, so rotating different shoes on a known training tempos route is a good idea, i have a pair of speeds and next% , i'll compare to my usual rides. I might get a pair of the endorphin pro if the speeds are quick, they can be used for 1/2 and below.......but as you say its wether the shoes make my legs fresher in the later stages of a mara thats of interest or not.  Theres a school of thought that only wearing them in races means you get more of a boost on race day, others say that training in them for sessions etc results in quicker recovery.
  • saintjasonsaintjason ✭✭✭
    edited July 2021
    That podcast was enlightening Jooligan. I hadn't realised for instance that EVA cushioned shoes offer a 1% performance increase in running economy on average. However, inrresspective of shoes on any given day the variability in running economy is +/-1%. Given this info wearing standard EVA cushioned shoes is effectively 0% bacause some days you respond to the cushioning and some days you don't. Interesting. 

    I then thought about the later miles of the marathon. For me, testing myself over the distance is why I do the weeks of training. I'm not sure I would get the same emotional satisfaction from cruising through the final stages in carbon shoes. Anecdotally I've heard from club mates who said their legs felt great at the end of a marathon. Maybe that's a simplified and ultimately redundant view to have on my part. Perhaps I'm being an idiot almost wanting to feel the pain? 

    Part of me realises I am potentially making things intentionally harder than things need to be. However, I don't know how I'd respond to the carbon shoes. It will be interesting to hear how your experience stacks up(sic) TR.

    I also realise I will be limiting my chances to compete, be that age group or gfa qualification as Wardi mentioned. However, as stated in the podcast, I will at the very least be assured I will have maintained the integrity and spirit of the sport. That's not say carbon athletes are not, after all, World Athletics have decreed them legal and compiled rules for both track and road. It's a personal decision ultimately. 

    So there you go. U-turning faster than a politician  :D

    Cutback week for me so only 13 last night and a very sore 10 on Tuesday with some strides. I have been trying to do more s&c but the doms are hammering my quads and knees. Hopefully that gets easier.



  • WardiWardi ✭✭✭
    SJ.. more & more manufacturers are jumping on the carbon bandwagon so at least Nike won't have the whole market to themselves.  It does inevitably point to more widespread acceptance too.
    Nice 13m last night.

    I had achy/weary back of legs after the weekend so had to cut back to a measly 4, 5, 5m Mon-Weds.  Suitably recharged I felt much better on this morning's MLR and enjoyed 12m in the sun and a toasty 22 degrees.
  • JooliganJooligan ✭✭✭
    Sounds like a very pleasant run Wardi. Well worth having a few short easier days for.
    Glad you enjoyed the podcast SJ. They're an amusing & informative duo. Your take on it sums up my feelings on the matter.
    Borrowed your club's track session from last week to use with the lads at lunch today though adapted it to fit the time constraints so only 5 sets but the 2nd recovery was only 60" rather than 90. Absolutely destroyed by the end. I led the lads all the way til the final 1' rep when they left me for dust. I managed almost 300m but they were all in the 340-380m range!
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    SJ - agreed, s and c interferes with the running myscles at times. Needs a bit of a juggle and some running on achey muscles.

    Good stuuf jools

    Wardi - no where near that warm here

    10 yday, 10 today.
  • saintjasonsaintjason ✭✭✭
    Good session that Jooligan, nicely done leading the group out, always last rep legends. 

    Yes finding the s&c tough to fit in without it impacting one or more runs TR. Nice going with the miles back 2 back. 

    Agreed re the market opening up with more choices Wardi

    6 super easy last night, including a stop to stretch right calf. Seemed ok afterwards. 

    10 tonight with gentle out and back a touch faster along the canal. Humid as you like and I became a human fly catcher. 


  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    SJ  - plenty of insects about in the damp. Got bitten a few times dog walking this week.

    Did an easy paced time on feet 20m today in the rain, 77m for the week after a hm bizarrely. Defo think i underperformed last Sumday.
  • WardiWardi ✭✭✭
    TR.. good effort slogging out a 20 miler and kudos for a big week of miles the week after a big race.  I got wet walking back from the pub last night but got luckier on the run.
    SJ.. one of the reasons I often wear sunglasses in summer is to deflect flying bugs!

    Cooler and grey skies this morning so a comfy 15.2m done in 15-17 degrees.  It still seemed quite humid at times though.  Showers were forecast all morning but luck was on my side as I managed to stay dry.
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    Nice one on the 15m wardi, good to avoid any rain too.

    CD - did you do Dorking 10 today?

    Going to stick with the Sunday turbo for a while, as i think im in ok shape at the mo. So 75min done today, 10min, 12x4min/1min, 5min. Hopefully my legs wont be too ruined to run on tomorrow.
  • saintjasonsaintjason ✭✭✭
    edited July 2021
    Excellent long run yday TR a week after the HM. Another perspective on the half last week is that it didn't take too much out of you and has enabled you to get a good week in. Had you smashed yourself you might not have felt as good yday. 

    Nicely weather dodged Wardi and good to feel comfy doing 15.2. Similar conditions this side of the hills, humidity being the main issue here too. Agree re specs be it prescribed or sunnies. I have swollowed a fair few insects which is annoying but good protein I've been assured  :) Biggest annoyance is when you fail to spot the cloud of midgies and end up covered. 

    A warm but easy 5 miles yday and another humid 16 this morning to complete a cutback week of 67.9 miles. No interest in the 0.1 to round up - I'm in km anyway so no harm done. 

    I feel right into training now. Weight is dropping off nicely and sleep is playing an important role. If I don't get enough, like the last two nights, I feel pretty tired on runs. 11 weeks to go from tomorrow. 
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    edited July 2021
    Well done SJ, you are going well at the mo.......i wanted to run quicker though, so im not sure what happened, i thought i was trying hard. Feels like a waste ot a taper, but a couple of easy weeks would have been a good idea at that time.......i could have stopped after 17m yday, but felt ok so tagged on 2m, and then 1m more.......ode tells me that the 12wk plan starts tomorrow, i guess we have a good chance of it going ahead, we will need the post euros CV19 spike to drop off a bit, but by Oct most folks will br doublr jabbed or been infected. Im aware of double jabbed folks testing positive locally, but not getting too poorly.........one of my fears is getting locked in again.
  • WardiWardi ✭✭✭
    SJ.. I think sleep is often overlooked by runners doing big miles.  Good to see you in a positive training groove and losing a bit of timber.  That's a decent 16m this morning in humid conditions too, nicely done.
    TR.. if you've got similar weather down south I'd imagine that turbo session was quite a sweaty one.  Re. VLM I would be worried more for the spectators than the runners - the tubes are always rammed on race day.  My gut feeling is that it will happen though.

    22 degrees and hot/humid this morning so chose the local north to south cycle track which offers a fair bit of shade as well as being traffic free.  Ran an out & back 10.4m - once you've run the outward leg miles the route is so straight that there's no way of dibbing out or taking a short cut - good for motivation!
    25m in the last 2 days rescued my week somewhat after a tired start- 56m done.
  • TippTopTippTop ✭✭✭
    Afternoon all! Hectic couple of weeks here. Most of the cold shifted relatively quickly but couldn't quite get the last of it off my chest, but chilled and enjoyed our break away walking chunks of the SW coastal path. Done a little bit last week and back to it this week.

    TR - sounds like a solid half and a good workout in the conditions. And followed up with a solid week too!
    Wardi - a soggy 16m in the bank! Good to see you getting those long runs back up in distance.
    sj - you're nailing your training! Nice 10m in the 18 also.
    Jooligan - incredible recovery from your ultra adventures!

    For me, one part overlooked regarding the shoes is the placebo effect - simply believing they're going to make you quicker/'save' your legs will increase the likelihood of them doing so.
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    Wardi- good couple of days there. We might get a vlm announcement after todays news. Was defo humid for turbo yday, i made a big puddle.

    TT - good to hear you had a good break.

    Mlr monday is back, 14m run home tonight.
  • WardiWardi ✭✭✭
    edited July 2021
    Good run for a Monday TR, yes VLM would be a very nice 'recovery' symbol for the country so lets hope for a 'good to go' message.
    TT.. the break sounds good, I've got one booked for a long weekend early August in the UK, will be nice to get away somewhere.
    5.4m in light rain this morning.  No wind and reasonable temps so quite refreshing really, t-shirt & shorts were fine. 
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