sub-2:30 marathon

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  • PadamsPadams ✭✭✭

    Gobi - you could run a much faster marathon if you trained specfically for it, tapered etc., and I'm pretty sure you agree with that!

    Not sure what the point of my previous post was about time available. The thing is, when you think of how many hours you spend sleeping, working etc. I fin it hard to make it add up to 24 i.e. presumably there is more time available for training than you think (at least for someone like me with no major commitments other than work). So far this year I've only spent 4.7% of the time training, which isn't much really.

  • GobiGobi ✭✭✭
    Padams, indeed and at some point I might :¬)

    I can also find the 2/3 hours a day I need to train :¬)
  • On Coro's mate, I don't think it's at all surprising that he can train that way and run 2:24.  If Paul Tergat (or similar) trained in the same way I'm sure he'd still break 2:10 - it's simply a case of talent.  Besides, 5 x 2hr+ runs per week (plus a load of other runs, I assume) sounds like pretty good marathon training to me - until you're looking to out sprint Lel down The Mall, it's all about fat burning, not VO2max or leg speed.

    On my mileage, on average it's not that high - just consistant as I have been quite resiliant to injury.  On average, I can run 80 typical training miles a in little over 8 hours - so just over an hour per day.  Is that really out so crazy?  The mix allows me to be competitive from 3000m up, whilst my 1500m speed has never really been put to the test in a fast graded race - my only attempt last year was a Southern League meet which was great fun but set off at walking pace for the first 800m before a 700m burnup where I was destroyed on the final lap by some proper milers (one of whom had run close to 4mins for the mile earlier that year).  No amount of miles would allow me to keep up with them!

  • GobiGobi ✭✭✭
    LOL BEJ, always impressed by how fast you run.

    I do 90/120 miles a week in 11 to 15 hours
  • Marmite - That was me 'joking' about starting a "Finish FLM by 12pm" thread.  Joking in a serious kind of way.  I'd love to get quick enough to go to the CG or the OG.  4 years to improve, so much time, yet so little time.  Staying injury free would be the key.

  • MtRMtR ✭✭✭
    Marders: Looks like Athletics NZ would set the bar still higher. They've named a very small team for Beijing, leaving out a couple of marathon runners who've posted the A standard.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/4483053a1823.html

    You'll just have to run faster!
  • Or get UK citizenship sooner.
  • Yeah I saw that MtR.  They want people to be consistent and able to get top 16.  2.15 don't cut it these days!  At least it's something to aim for and the finer details can be dealt with later... or if they want to be really picky, I will go down the BEJ route and become the defector!
  • coronlum - you'll find the odd runner that breaks the mould a little. I'm not shocked that someone could run 2.24 with no speedwork.

    I have a good friend that ran a couple of 2.23 marathons back in 95 and 96 and if you looked at his build-up to each race you'd see that he raced sparingly and did very little fast work - just one interval session a week from January to race day in April. Most of his training was just steady running to and from work. I think he averaged around 90mpw.

    However, to look at one week of his training would have been misleading, but even to look at the 12-14weeks prior to London still wouldn't have given an accurate enough picture. What would be missing is that he had 10-12 years of good quality training and PBs that included 3.57 1500m, 14.30 5k and 30.07 10k. (As a slight aside he was relatively poor at cross country - I beat him a couple of times in league races and he only once sneaked into the top 100 of the National)

    How we run today (good or bad) is not simply a product of what we have done in the days and weeks before, and not even just the months but more often the years of running in our legs.
  • JEJ,
    Thanks for posting a sample of your training. Looks like the bulk of the "quality" runs was made up of tempo running at between half marathon and marathon pace, with a couple of races thrown in and a very light sprinkling of VO2 sessions coupled with sustained, relatively high mileage.

    Do you feel that the tempo sessions are especially useful for boosting threshold? How would you modify your training for the next marathon that you aim at. What do you think the typical week might look like?

    It was Marders who mentioned the finish by noon, but as you say, potential for low 2:20s.

    BR,
    So are you not going to try and lay down a huge base of mileage before your marathon in the autumn? Would have thought that you/Hadd would favour a 100mpw approach, slowly increasing the intensity of the "work" sessions as the weeks roll by.

    OR,
    Sounds like your 2:29 mate mixes VO2, tempo/threshold, reasonably quick long runs and plenty of mileage. Definitely similarities to the tail-end of the Pfitzinger 70+mpw training program. When you say 20M at sub-6 pace, was he doing these at ~6 min/mile pace (i.e. 2:37 pace) or significantly faster (e.g. ~5:45 / 2:29 pace). 

    Sorry to hear that you had a tough time of it this year. Thanks for posting the training.

    Bazza,
    Thanks for the input, some very interesting points there. Think most people who are seriously considering the sub-2:30 have probably taken a step back at several points and made some assessment of the volume and structure of their training with a view to gauging what the best performances they could reasonably hope to squeeze out of themselves might be. For my part, I have been "playing around" with mileage and quality for a while, but only relatively recently have I started to close in on what I think will produce optimum performance and yet still be compatible with work and family-commitments.

    Think you've hit the nail on the head with regard to long-term running history laying the foundations for future performances.  

    FF,
    It's interesting to hear you say that - I've got a mate who ran 70:xx for the half five or six times but only went sub-70 on one occasion. Think that's one reason to race somewhat frequently as you're never quite sure when you're gonna pop a PB.

    Hilly,
    Interesting to hear your view on the differences between training, because it strikes me as rather similar - high mileage with plenty of tempo/threshold running. Also, it seems that if "BR is mainly fast twitch" then his 5k time should be much more in-line with his 10k/half marathon times.

    Padams,
    Congrats on your superb progress and how on earth did you even contemplate doing FLM after the 48hour treadmill challenge???

    Sounds like you also favour a high mileage programme with plenty of tempo running. Is the midweek progression run something that you've naturally gavitated towards? Could you post a few weeks typical marathon training for us to have a look at?

    Marders,
    I think you're good for it mate, so although I thought you were "joking" I didn't really think you were.

    What would you do differently when preparing for your next marathon? 

  • Marmite - if last week is anything to go by, probably something along the lines of:
    M: Rest
    T: Rest
    W: Rest
    T: Rest
    F: Rest
    S: Rest
    S: Rest
    image

    Next time round I'd like to run a mixture of long(er) tempo at target pace (up to about 14M) along with short, sharp tempo up to 10 or 12km at 3:15 / km pace.  I'll also try to run a regular 15M / 90min progression run midweek - find it hard to motivate myself for that kind of run on my own but I'm lucky enough to have a few local runners / friends I can drag out on occasion. 

  • PadamsPadams ✭✭✭

    Marmite - a typical week would be:

    Mon - 7-8M steady
    Tues - long intervals e.g. 6 mile reps
    Weds - medium-long run e.g. 14M starting steady and increasing to MP
    Thurs - easy/steady 9-11M
    Fri - easy 6M ( or maybe two easy runs totalling 10-11M)
    Sat/Sun - a long run and a tempo run. Usually long run on Sat, but over the winter I raced XC (as the tempo run) most weekends so it depended when the race was. Possibly an extra easy 5M thrown in as well.

    That makes about 80M. I also swim a couple of times a week, and do a bit of cycling if I get the chance, often to replace an easy run.

    I've basically been doing that for quite a while now. As BEJ says, the Wednesday run is the hardest to motivate yourself for. If anything, I don't think I do enough miles at HM/mara pace, but I have raced a lot of XC in the winter which hopefully has a similar effect. I really struggle to run at marathon pace on my own in training, but it feels fairly easy in a race which is why I like racing a lot.

    I wasn't looking forward to FLM after running 44M at marathon pace over the previous 48 hours, but in the end it was fine - one of the team was pretty ill so three of us stayed with him, so we walked a reasonable chunk of the second half. It's much more enjoyable than trying to get a PB!

    Doing the Bracknell HM this weekend - going to try to run about 1:14 and see if that feels like marathon pace. I'll be setting a target for Edinburgh based on that, although Edinburgh's a good course (apparently) so that's hopefully worth about a minute over the first half.

  • PadamsPadams ✭✭✭
    By the way, in the above, easy means about MP + 60-90secs, steady means about MP + 30-45secs (ish!).
  • fwiw - I believe I had the potential to run sub-2.30. My PBs at 10k (31.46) and 10m (52.03) would indicate so. However, I think I made several mistakes during the build-up to my marathon.  

    The midweek long run - as others have just highlighted, this is very difficult to manage. Ten miles was easy but getting up to 12-13miles was not at all easy - psychologically as much as physically - but I would recommend it and I should have done that more often. 

    The long Sunday run - in hindsight I think I should have done a bit more. Most of my long runs were a few minutes either side of 2hrs. I did four at 2.15 and one 2.30. I should have been out on my feet for longer than two hours more regularly. 

    Races - I think I raced a bit too often. I raced pretty well throughout the winter but probably too much. I was still doing all the usual Saturday x/c races that I did every year and this meant that I was often a tired on my Sunday efforts. When aiming for a marathon I think you really need to focus on just that event. It seems really obvious to me now, but there you go.

  • coroniumcoronium ✭✭✭

    Re: The midweek long run

    For FLM '07 I ran standard 12-14M midweek runs which worked quite well. This year I couldn't do this because of work and family commitments, so I started doing 10M early morning @ MP + 30 sec (back home by 6:30am!) and 8M at lunchtime at a good pace (MP + 15 sec). I think 18M miles as a double session worked better than a single shorter run, as I got used to running while slightly fatigued during the lunchtime session but recovered better the following day.

    My Sat LSRs were never very 'S' - avg MP + 30 sec increasing to almost MP for last 4/5M + my training partner liked to finish the run with a 400m sprint! I think this sprint was his speed session for the week. We were normally home by 9:30 on Sat morning. Sunday was often a long (10M) hilly tempo type run at slightly faster than MP.

  • Well this is very interesting and unless I'm seriously deluding myself it does appear that there is more or less a consensus on the structure of a "marathon training week", which appears to be comprise the following key sessions mixed in with plenty of easy/steady "aerobic miles":

    • marathon paced running (as part of, or in addition to a medium-long progression run)
    • tempo/threshold session (half marathon through to 10k pace)
    • long run

    The main variant appears to be the inclusion of speedwork (e.g. intervals of some description).

    This looks alot like a Pfitzinger-style approach to the marathon and he also stresses the importance of the long run not being done too slowly (e.g. use first couple of miles for the warm-up, then 20% slower than marathon pace for a chunk, ramping up to MP+10%).

    I took this type of approach on the run-up to London this year and it seemed to work for me. I guess the thing I need to focus on now is to keep building on this base. A chap from a club that I used to run with who routinely ran 2:25-2:29 for quite a number of years in a row reckoned (just as Bazza stated above) that you just have to keep cranking out the mileage and the workouts once you've found the sweet-spot in terms of the maximum you can tolerate and have time for. So with the input you have all provided, think I'll be minded to just try and stay injury-free and keep plugging away.


    BEJ,
    Will you plan to do another marathon later this year or will you leave it until FLM '09?

    Padams,
    44M @MP in 48 hours followed by a marathon!!!!!!!!!! Thought my calves were sore.....can't imagine the state your legs must have been in. Best of luck at Bracknell and Edinburgh - keep us posted.

    Bazza,
    There's no doubt you were in sub-2:30 shape judging from your times at shorter distances. What stopped you from having another go?

    Coronium,
    Was your training partner training for a match-up with Lel on the Mall?

  • MM - Hadd isn't all about slow running.  The well read article is in relation to people who can put in a good 10k but not convert it into a marathon time (like I was at the time with a 33:41 / 2:49 conversion).  I think there's a thread going somewhere on letsrun.com where he is in debate with Cabral which may contain more in depth discussion of his approach.

    Hilly meant that I have more FT fibres in that I can run better over 10k and HM than her.  I don't have basic leg speed as I've never done anything to build it, hence a weaker 5k time.

  • Who would have thought a sub 2:30 10k thread could get so seriousimage?

    Tbh, I'm not sure what I'd do differently. I'm quite new to all this so I am still learning (slowly). One thing for sure that I would like to change is not getting sick in the last few weeks before a mara! First time round I came down with something a week out and was far from even 75% on the day, this time round I got something about 4 weeks out and it took me a course of antibiotics and 3 weeks before I was close to 95%... Sure helps with the taper though when you are concentrating on getting better!

    One thing that was 'lacking' for me was a mid week medium long run (13M-15M), although as BEJ mentioned, our Tues/Thurs session would sometimes achieve this with w/u and w/d. I say 'lacking' but I don't feel like I was 'lacking' on the day because of it.

    The only other thing I would like to change/combat is towards the end of FLM (last 5 miles) my hamstrings/calves (and most other leg muscles!) started getting tighter. Not sure if this was partly caused by the weather or by something I hadn't done in training (ie no hill work). I'm not the most flexible person at the best of times so it could just be related to that or it could be 21 miles does that to your body. Anyway, next time I think I will try and incorporate some hill work and hope it helps in some way (rather unscientific but can't hurt).

    It's interesting that most of us have a similar structure for a typical week. It's also interesting seeing where Coro's mate is coming from and how the different approaches produce the desired results. Personally, I would get bored with just running long, frequently (my standard week a year ago was 3-5 10 milers a week at the same pace - took a while to get bored of it but as soon as you start running in the dark the boredom almost kicks in automatically). I like the way the week is now mixed up with varying levels of intensity and difficulty (and easy!) and it's quite fun trying a new session. Each to their own.

    My long runs varied from 18M-24M (2 hours-2.45) and usually in the 20-22 range (2.20-2.30). Time on feet is something people always talk about, hence the majority around 2.30.

    Padams - Are you going to adjust your training paces based on FLM08? So 2 x old MPimage. Are you sure you're not going for the biggest improvement WR!

    Bazza - Agree with Marmite, sub 32 10km suggests sub 230, there's still time!

  • Sadly, my sub-32 days are long gone - my most recent race was a 41min 10k two years ago. I really ought to change my forum photo - I'm a little rounder in the cheeks these days.

    I never ran another marathon as I entered London the following year but didn't get in! - you had to run sub-2.45 to get a guaranteed entry in those days. I had a good winter though the year after my London run and actually achieved my highest ever placing in the national and inter-counties x/c. I also made a last minute decision to run a 20mile race and ran a fairly comfortable 1.56 - nothing outstanding but it showed I was capable of running a marathon quicker than 2.58.

    But also around that time lots of other things were going on in my life - I had a spell of about five years when pretty much every stressful thing that can happen did happened. My 'career' was beginning to take off, but I also changed job a couple of time. I became a father twice and moved house three times - on once occasion moving house and becoming a father on the same day! Then I lost my own father, then my mother.

    All the time I was ticking over - even running quite well now and then, but the consistency was disappearing and I also started getting niggling little injuries.

    And before you know it the years have flown and I spend saturday mornings taking my daughter to ballet and sunday mornings watching my son play rugby - both of which I wouldn't miss for the world. But the moral of my tale is... if you think you have a chance of running a 2.30 marathon go for it while you can.

  • PadamsPadams ✭✭✭

    Marders - I think leg muscles getting tight in the last few miles of a marathon is pretty inevitable. The general fatigue of running that far at that intensity will get to you eventually, and it's not something you can really replicate in training (without running 23M+ at MP, which is probably not a good idea, or very achievable in training!). If you've done the long runs, and some of them with a fast finish, I think that helps you to maintain a decent pace when this starts to happen though.

    My run accidentally turned into 14M last night with the last 3M fast (was late for dinner!), so might swap that with tonight's run which was going to be very similar. If I follow marders' suggestion of adjusting MP based on my last marathon, the last 3M were roughly 4min/mile under MP.

    Re. 10k conversion, my PB is still 33.07. Admittedly, it's nearly a year old, but I still don't think I could do much quicker than 32.30.

  • GobiGobi ✭✭✭
    Nice one Bazza, I assume you are back in training now though with a view to taking some time off that 41 min 10km.

    I still think I might be too lazy to do enough work around MP and HMP so will be interesting to see if I can get there using the high mileage route.
  • Marmite - another marathon this year?  Right now I'm feel out of breath walking upstairs!

    I also used to consider 32:30 the benchmark for achieving a 2:30 marathon, although I see the Mcmillan calc rates the 2:30 as quite a bit harder.  That figures as one of them (when fit) I could run as a hard tempo run, the other I am yet to achieve...  I was surprised to find how easily 32 flat came about - I ran a PB of 33:17 in March last year (restrained first 5km), then regular summer track (with a couple of untapered 33:30ish road races thrown in instead of long runs) - then by early September managed to hang on to a 32:49 on the last day of a 105 mile week.  3 weeks, a few hundred miles and bout of man-flu later 32:04 was my most comfortable 10km to date. 

    Perhaps the trick was in barely recovering from flu, high alcohol intake and minimal sleep the previous night - only bothering to drive to the race as I was givin a friend a lift with no intention to run myself (I was more interested in watching the GNR), then finding my entry form hadn't been received (pre entries only) before being bullied to (and allowed to) race where I ran the first mile in sub 5 by mistake.

    The other day I saw this thread next to the sub 2:30 HM topic and momentarily got confused which one to click on.  Then I envisaged a foolproof plan...  we could take the 2:30 HM schedule, double the distances and run twice as fast as recommended for a near guarenteed way of achieving the goal..?!

  • MtRMtR ✭✭✭
    BEJ: How are you? Are you running again yet? How's the calf muscle? Doing any other exercise? Or just climbing the walls out of frustration?
  • TippTopTippTop ✭✭✭
    <unlurk>

    Very interesting thread. I'm quite a long way from this at the moment, but it is out there as a long term aim, so I shall continue to read with interest.

    Personally I've been debating the shorter speed v mara specific training with myself for the last few days, but reckon I still have a large chunk of improvement available on the mara specific training, so will stick with that over the summer (esp after reading some of the opinions on here) ahead of my autumn marathons.

    Just wanted to comment on the leg muscles getting tight towards the end, Padams and marders. I didn't have that issue at all towards the end at London and put it down to a couple of things.
    1) over-distance long runs
    2) doing 5-6m easy 3-4 hours after my long runs (I found this particularly beneficial)
    3) weights to strengthen the legs, &
    4) core work - I found being able to maintain form throughout, particularly in the latter stages made a big difference to how my legs felt.

    I'm sure ye've probably got this covered already, but that's my tuppence worth image

    Oh and a bit of yoga doesn't do any harm either to help keep the legs generally limber......

    <lurk>
  • TT - Funny you mention yoga as I was thinking of that to get some flexibility back!  One gets to see a lot more lesser spotteds in that sport tooimage

    As for having your 4 points covered
    1) never been over 26.2 or 3 hours on a run (and I'd like to keep it that way!) - could try getting over the 26.2 in under 3 hours I guess
    2) never done a double after a long run
    3) nope
    4) nope

    3 and 4 just come down to lack of time and knowledge.  It's hard enough fitting in 70 miles a week sometimes and I don't know enough about these things yet.  Looks like I have loads I can work on/try.

  • TippTopTippTop ✭✭✭
    marders - I'm very limited time-wise, so I've got a weights bench at home. Likewise core work and yoga are done at home too (so I miss out on the lesser spotted spotting image ). In terms of over 26.2 in under 3 hours, 27m @ 6:40 would do it image Not as bad as it sounds, in your case that's MP+60s, I ran my over distance runs at MP+60-75s…
  • Although i'm not in the same league as you guys, i've been reading the posts with interest.

    My marathon training followed along the same lines as the rest of you, just alittle slower. But i'm sure that if i can build on the level of fitness gained then i have a 2:3x in my legs.

    Could some of you post a typical weeks training when not  marathon training, to give me some idea of what i should be doing between now and F.L.M 09
    It would be interesting to see if you all have similar approaches.

    Thanks in advance

  • PadamsPadams ✭✭✭

    TT - interesting that you think overdistance and doubles on long run days might help. I've done doubles on long run days before, but only say 20M, 4M, rather than 28M, 5M!! Might be worth a go next time round, but a bit late for Edinburgh I think.

    I'm also not very flexible and don't do much stretching, but never thought this particularly mattered. I've seen so many different opinions on stretching that I've given up worrying about it.

    morgrunning - I would do something very similar to the week I posted above even when not marathon training, just with a couple of tweaks e.g. shorten the medium-long midweek run a bit maybe. I would still do a long run every week in any case, maybe just 18M though, but if you keep knocking out 20s that will give you a good base.

  • Hello all.  Like TT 2:30 is a long term goal for me (did 2:46 at FLM this year so some way to go) and I will be lurking with interest.

    I don't plan to run another marathon until FLM 09, and probably would have stuck to around 15 miles for the long run until later in the year, but might take padams' advice and do at least the occasional 18-20 (maybe one a month or so) to help to keep the endurance going.

  • TippTopTippTop ✭✭✭
    Padams - as you know, I like to read up a bit. My training this time around (loosely) incorporated some of Nerurkar's principles. He advocated going over distance, and then start to run them a little quicker as the distance drops back down.
    I tended to go for an even pace throughout though, none of my longs runs were done progressively, and none included MP towards the end (in fact, in contrast to last autumn where I was knocking out 12-16 @ target MP I done nothing of the sort this time around, just started doing a little bit of tempo running 6 weeks out). The quickest I ran a long run ended up being ~MP+30s.

    Making a double out of it was my own addition to it, on the basis that by comparison, a straight 26.2 is considerably easier, both mentally and physically.

    Stretching is an interesting one. For me it's very much like the stone that keeps tigers away (hope I'm not the only one familiar with the sketch or I'll look really stupid saying that!) in that whilst doing it I've had no injuries (bar one where I done weights shortly after a hard HM at the end of a ton-up week - stupid really), so I'm not really inclined to stop to see if it's coincidental or not.....
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