Long run pace for 5hr marathon

Hi - quick question from a newbie.

 Aiming for sub 5 hr for my first marathon in Oct - what pace should I be running my long runs at - planning to do 16 miles this weekend.  I did 15 last weekend in 3.07 image and my pb for 10k is 1.06.16

 Thanks very much,

 Suzy x

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Comments

  • You need to talk to Shades, Suzy. She's the expert on training times. Go to Shades Marathon Training thread and tell her what your pbs are and she'll sort you out!image
  • Your pace is fine as it is.

    Your long run has little to do with speed. It is about training your body to utilise the fat store and endurance. Run as you feel. As your body adapts to your long(er) runs you may find that your time starts to drop naturally. Be sure to get plenty carbos into your diet and always take hydration with you. Don't hold back on daily nutrition.

    It is your shorter runs that you should try running a little faster if you are concerned about pace. Don't be too technical. Clearly 11 minute miles is fast for you so I suggest in your shorter runs you try to keep as close to that as you can.

    Whatever you do be fresh for that long run, take a rest day beforehand if feeling tired.

    All the best for October.

  • 3 hours is a very very long time to run!...An elite would never run for that long in training.

    Before anybody says; yes but FTP but she will be racing for 5hrs etc. etc. and an elite only races for 2-2.5hrs.

    You don't actually have to put your hand in the fire, to know its hot!

    Many top coaches put a 2.5hr limit to the long run, irrrespective of standard of athlete.

    You must have felt absolutely shattered Suzy, for the rest of that day and for a few days or so after. I'd rather see you limit your long run to 2.5hrs and make up the mileage throughout the week. Physically you will feel alot better for it.

    When your body is so fatigued it is at its weakest, and therefore far more prone to injury.

  • Thanks Guys, really appreciate your thoughts.

     FTP - I can completely see what you're saying, I did feel pretty shattered after my 15 miler but had recovered after a couple of rest days.

     All the training schedules I can find do advocate at least a couple of long runs ie; 20 miles+ which at my LSR pace will take around 5 hours - would you really not advise this?

     I want to give myself the best chance of breaking the 5 hour mark but perhaps I just haven't got enough time to do the necessary preparation now.

    Suzy.

  • Pammie*Pammie* ✭✭✭

    Suzie

    My first marathon i did in 5h 19m

    2nd marathon for London this year i broke 5hrs well 4:36

    I did read a bit and had a few discussions about the long run. There were some that said i should get some 20 milers under my belt that i should run for the length of time i hoped to finish

    But also read  from people (some coaches) saying you should limit long runs to 2½hrs, maybe 3 hours at the very most These long runs take a lot out of you. I did question this theory. I was told its better to get to the start line healthy

    So i have to agree with FTP. It can be done.

  • Suzy..Any training programme that advocates running for 5hrs should be thrown away.

    I'd prefer to see you doing one run/week at your proposed marathon pace, 11:26/mile for 90mins.

    Also one run/week slightly faster than your proposed marathon pace upto 60mins at 11min/mile.

    These 2 runs combined with your long run of 2.5hrs (3hrs if you really feel up to it!), should help you achieve your target.

    If you run more than 3 times/week keep the other runs at your easy pace.

  • Your last run was at about 12:30 pace and your target race pace for a 5 hr marathon is about 11:30.  That would suggest that your long run training pace is about right - any faster and you'll take too long to recover 

    The training programmes I've seen advocate getting used to being on your feet for as long (in time) as it will take you to get round

    So I'd ignore the distance covered and gradually build up the time you are running for until you peak at a run that is somewhere approaching 5 hours.  I'd suggest that this longest run should be 3-4 weeks pre race.

    I can see FTP's point but he's not known on here for avoiding controversy..... (sits back and waits image)

  • I think anyone that expects a relative newbie to run 5hrs in training is a sadist, and doesn't really appreciate the purpose of the long run.

    The purpose of a long run is to deplete the glycogen stores in your muscles, your body reacts by re-loading. You don't need to run for 5hrs to achieve this!

    If 5hrs running would benefit an elite he/she would do it. It doesn't so they don't.

  • *chucks spanner in*

    I have exactly the same goal as Suzie, and I'm at the same point in training.

    I've just done my 15 mile run in 2.51. It would've been nearer to 2.30 but I was advised to slow down to train aerobically and I've done just that.

    It didn't seem to take too much out of me at all, as I'd slowed down so much and I felt fine afterwards! image I did rest on Monday, but then ran a much faster 5 mile yesterday, again without any ill effects.

    I run four times a week, the other runs currently being two 4 mile tempo runs and another one of 7 or 8 miles easy.

    feel the pain! wrote (see)

    If 5hrs running would benefit an elite he/she would do it. It doesn't so they don't.

    I would expect an elite to run a marathon twice in 5 hours though! That's why they don't bother.

    Is it just a case of " there are two trains of thought" on this? image

  • Liverbird - spot on re an elite runner doing a 5 hr session.

    I think an elite runner would only do a 5 hr run if they were training for an ultra - there's only so much stamina you need for a marathon.  I remember reading that Tergat ran 28mile LSRs in about 2.5 hours but that's the longest LSR I've ever heard of. 

    My hesitance about agreeing with FTP on this one is that a 3hr run at marathon pace here would only be about 15-16 miles.  That leaves the hardest part of the race as an unknown quantity.  Not only will your legs not know what it's like beyond 16 miles but there will also be a massive mental barrier to break

    I would not like to face a marathon having never even done 20 miles before

  • Pammie*Pammie* ✭✭✭
    This is one subject which there'll never be an agreement on
  • Mr LB's opinion lies somewhere in the middle of the two. Now I'm completely confused......image
  • Hook..I agree with you that, a 20mile run  would be your long run, ideally 23miles.

    But this is simply too much for alot of people. You are actually asking Suzy to train HARDER than an elite. This would be wrong.

    Liverbird...Just alittle point, you can actually run your long run too slow!. If you run too slow you won't simulate the physiological demands of racing as closely.

  • Pammie*Pammie* ✭✭✭

    I think the only way you can do this is to listen to both sides respect what each person has to say. Then make your own mind up (not easy i know) but whatever way you go have faith in what you are doing and not deviate

    Different ways are always going to suit different people

  • Ask yourselves 1 question!....What is a 5hr run gonna achieve?

    If your answer is, 'well your legs will know what its like', then that is a little naive.A long run is basically a standard aerobic run, the only thing that sets it apart is the length. So whats the point of a long run? Well..........

    Aerobically you get no more benefit from running 3hrs as you do from 3 X 1hrs! Infact you're more likely to run at a faster pace(for the same effort|) for the 3 X 1hr. sessions! which would benefit you more.

    Therefore the main reason for doing a long run is to benefit the legs. It builds up the glycogen(carbohydrate) stores in the muscles of the legs. This is why 'carbo-loading' is extremely important 3-4 days before a marathon.

    My point about 5hrs is, if there was a physilogical benefit from running 5 hrs the elites would do it irrespective of the fact they finish the marathon in 2-2.5hrs.

    If you are running for 5hrs you will be burning alot of fat, not neccesarally a bad thing but it is not the purpose of a long run. You can burn fat anytime!, sat around watching TV burns fat.

  • FTP - I can see your point about a marathon beginner having to train harder than an elite runner (in terms of time out running at least) 

    I was lucky enough to switch to marathon running having built up some speed at shorter distances and so can't say that I'm offering this advice from personal experience.  On that basis I'm just repeating what I've heard elsewhere (can't remember who or where but they've always been credible sources).  I did, however, coach my brother through his first marathon with him having no running background and finishing in just over 4 hours.

    For these reasons I've always been VERY defensive of the slower marathon runners when people refer to them as "fun runners".  I get my week's running done in about 10 hours and appreciate that many 4hour+ runners are often out training for as long as me.

    As Pammie says, I guess there is no right answer - In an ideal world it would be great to get some longer runs in but FTPs opinion is likely to be closer to reality

  • FTP - I am curious; have you ever run a marathon?

    Whilst you talk about physiological theory you don't seem to pay any regard to the mental demands of a marathon, which as  any marathon runner would know is a key constituent in achieving goals times, whether you are Paul Tergat, Paula Radcliffe or Suzy Newbie.

    Suzy, you are correct in your assessment that you need to have run over 20 miles in training. If you don't you wil end up like one of those annoying people who frequent the corridors of most companies after the London marathon with their medals and tales of 'how they ran the marathon', when in fact they ran the 1st 6 miles and jog/ walked from Cutty Sark.

  • feel the pain! wrote (see)

    Liverbird...Just alittle point, you can actually run your long run too slow!. If you run too slow you won't simulate the physiological demands of racing as closely.


    I guess that's true, FTP. My long run times have been calculated for me based on Macmillan predictions from my half and 10K race pbs. As I haven't done a marathon before I can only do as I'm told.....image

    The pace feels slow because I have been doing all my runs at the same pace, irrespective of the length of the training run. Now I have three paces for three different types of run and I hope I'm benefitting from the variations in speed. My body fat is dropping like a stone!image

  • Pammie*Pammie* ✭✭✭

    NDO - I am one of those people have not run more than 19 miles ever, in training. This year i ran all the way except at Cutty sark when you were forced to walk. And as for afterwards had no problems walking even my physio said she couldn't believe i had run a marathon as my legs were in good nick.

    I can only put it down to two reasons

    i ran within myself kept the pace easier, i did struggle a bit at 22 miles but thats normal isn't it everyone even the elitees struggle at some point

    i had regular sports massages kept my legs  in good condition

  • Nice one Pammie.

    Am I correct in deducing that you ran 19 miles this time in training but not previously? If so, it demonstrates that you also benefited from spending longer on your feet and allowed your body to experience the longer distance and gave your mind the mental toughness required to believe in yourself.

    As far as the injuries theory goes, the more time/ miles you cover, provided it is sensibly built up over a period of time, the more your muscles and body adapts to the needs of endurance running.  

    Are you aiming for sub 4 next year?

  • Pammie*Pammie* ✭✭✭

    NDO

    Have only done 2 marathons first time i got to about 18 miles in training other thing i did this time was running all my miles easy with the odd club session and the odd mile or 5km race.

    Overall i probably ran more miles than i did the last time but that is over the whole week

    I still have some unfinished business as 2007 training was rubbish a few niggles, but since the regular massages i've been fine, I think they help. But i do want a GFA so a sub 3:45 is what i'm after

  • Interesting discussion

    I understand the physiological argument presented.  However, IMHO the race turns into a psychological battle around the 13 mile mark for those who are slower in pace.  Having those miles under your belt in training is a huge positive in terms of motivation and confidence.

    I'm basically a five hour marathoner.  My two fastest times (and most comfortable experiences) occured when I completed a 20 miler in training.  The times when I've stuck to the 2.5 hour rule.  Very slow and painful in the latter stages.

    Got number 6 in October, I'll be doing my slow and steady 20 miler (in about 4.5 hours) before then.

  • Thanks everyone.  All very interesting - I think I am going to do my 16 miler and keep upping the mileage each week unless my body tells me otherwise.

     NDO - You sound like you have some marathon experience.................. brave man taking on FTP image

    Happychap - have you not quite broken the 5 hour mark yet or is that not your goal.  I am doing the Dublin, how about you?  I notice you are also in Surrey.  Can I ask which running club?  I had a run with Epsom Allsorts last week which was great but still struggling to find anyone who wants to do as many long run miles as me, as slowly as me!! 

  • Suzy, NDO Williams makes a good point about mental demands. Over 5 hours you need to stay focused and positive and know "I can do this" as all sorts of thoughts may enter your head trying to persuade you otherwise! 

    You say perhaps you haven't given yourself enough time - only you know, but even now think positive make your plan because I suspect perhaps you have not done so and see how you progress. Few marathoners' would go for 5 hours without needing to walk unless they have some training to 20 miles beforehand. I do not suggest as a beginner that you go beyond 20 miles in training. I agree with FTP in theory but you are not elite you need some 20 milers . Also as a beginner you cannot run your LSR too slow. If you can take the pressure off yourself and finish your marathon feeling you could do better you probably will but not if you finish thinking 'never again'.

    Something else to consider is that you will need to taper before your marathon- yes even as a beginner. You should not do any 20 milers for 2 or 3 weeks before your marathon. You need to be fresh on the day. I would seriously suggest you do no running at all the week before. Do your stretches and perhaps a mile or two power walking now and again that week.

  • NDO Williams....Mental demands! What are you talking about? Of course the marathon is tough. Are you suggesting running for 5hrs before a marathon will make you tougher? Load of shite. So what you are saying is Suzy should run for 5hrs to train her mind?

    Come and do a 6 X 1km session with me and I'll show you what tough is all about! Tell me what advantages a 5hr run gives you physiologically? It has no advantage whatsoever.

    Yes, I've ran marathons in the past (all under 3hrs), but they get in the way of my normal training/racing. Just as important is I know/train with 'proper' marathoners who at their peak have ran sub 2:20.

    If people want to train for 4/5hours then go ahead. I hope you get to the START line, never mind the finish line!

  • FTP - or should we say Mr Angry?image

    Care to compare British rankings for the marathon? no, thought not; keep hidding behind your pseduo name image

    Where would one turn up for these 6 x1km sessions - I do like a challenge. I may talk shite, as you said above, but are you full of it?

    Suzy, do yourself a favour and get the 20 miler under your belt. I get the feeling you have the calibre to achieve your goals

  • Are you having a laugh...there is 100's that have gone under 2:20! Same guy is running 2:50 at the moment and he's just turned 50. I don't lie, theres no point.

    I could make any times up on here, thats why I never mention my PBs, because it is irrelevant.

    NDO...Give me the physilogical advantage of training for 5hrs, thats all I ask.

  • My first marathon, I ran in about 4:45. 

    My longest run in training for that was 18 miles, which took me 3:20.  (So a bit slower than 11 minute miles).

    I think to do a 5 hour training run would be madness, but I did need something longer than 2.5 or 3 hours.  Basically, when I got to 18 miles in the race, the furthest I'd ever run before, I was more than two thirds of the way there. I knew I could do it.

    If I'd only done a 2.5 hour longest training run, that would have been about half a marathon, so I'd have done that training run, felt exhausted at the end of it, and then thought...  "On race day, I have to do that, and then do it ALL AGAIN" and I'd have given up.  I needed mentally, because I'd never run a marathon before and didn't know if I could, I needed mentally to have done "most of it" in training.  20 miles would have been ideal, 18 was a bare minimum.  I did my longest training run 4 weeks before the race, to allow for recovery.

  • I think the training for a FIRST marathon is significantly different from subsequent ones, because you need to learn that it is possible.

    The next time, you already know that.

  • If you can run for 15 miles, you can run a marathon!

    What stops people finishing a marathon? Bad preparation, starting too fast, de-hydration and injury.

    None of these benefit from training 5hrs.

    I have already said on this thread that 20miles, ideally 23miles would be your long run, but this is simply not practical for the 5hr/marathoner!

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