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Long run pace for 5hr marathon
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FTP - You disappoint me on a number of levels;
I look forward to you providing some substance rather than trying to mislead novice marathoners
You are advocating her to run in excess of 4hrs, her figure was 5hrs.
You actually think I need to acknowledge who I am to back my argument up! You sad bastard. I don't give a shit who you are. You could have run 2:10 for all I care, you still talk bollox. I am not a sports scientist. Therefore I read what sports scientists say. I read what top coaches advocate, not what some 'expert' advocates on here.
Do you really think I would want to run a session with you? My point was that a hard interval session creates as much 'mental' toughness as any slow 20mile run.
Why don't you say what the physiological advantages of training in excess of 4hrs/5hrs is? Or name the coaches that recommend a new runner to run 4/5hrs in training?
I have done 7 marathons, 2 Ironman and countless half mara/IM .. for any of those my longest run in training was 2.30hrs and I came away at the last IM this year with a marathon pb.
I know myself if I were to do a training run of 3 hrs+ that I would take too long to recover and would lose a valuable training day the next day.
But, you have to know that you WILL finish and I think thats the key.
I'll probably just do two 20 mile runs and then just try and wing the last 6 miles. There's so much conflicting information out there, it's hard to decide what is best to do. I guess after your first marathon you'll know what works best for you though.
FTP - You continue to disappoint me: It's not the bad language or poor BB ettiquete - I shall attribute that to low intelligence,up bringing or both.
What really disappoints me is that you have issued challenges and made claims that you can't substantiate.
Suzy, whilst these posts are interesting and there are many with multiple marathons under their belts who have caught the marathon bug, no one to date has posted who said they had achieved their desired time at the 1st attempt. If you really do want to achieve sub 5 you will need to go beyond 20 miles in training. Whether you take my advice or not is up to you and how much you really want to go below 5hrs.
I have made a note to check this thread again on the 28th October to see how you got on. Hopefully FTP the keyboard tourettes suffereer will have added some more classics by then too.
Good Luck Suzy!
I don't think that the mental challenge of running a marathon can be overestimated. Regardless of how well you train it is going to hurt (assuming you're not taking it easy)
Getting some long runs under your belt in training will give you the confidence to know that you can keep going when it gets tough
Suzy
Marathon PB of 5.02 achieved at London this year funnily enough off the back of a 20 mile training run that took 5 hours.
I also run with the Allsorts. There are a few of us doing 14 miles on Sunday, you are welcome to join us. We will be running at a suitable pace for you. My e-mail is enabled.
I'm not going to change what I've been doing. I'm at the same point as Suzy, with the same goal and I intend to continue with my plan, at the speeds I have been set. My longest run WILL be 20 miles. I expect it to take 3h 45 (ish) and we'll see how both Suzy and I get on, on the day itself. I'm pleased FTP thinks if you can run 15 miles you can run a marathon. I do hope so, but as 15 miles is a long, long way off the full 26.2, it is very difficult as a first timer to have that sort of belief. It may be that as a first timer, you simply need to convince yourself that "you can do this"....
I keep hearing people advocating training over distances for races on here and I believe several RW programmes have halfers running 14 mile training sessions! I can't get my head round that one, but there are some who feel they need the security of having run "over distance" before they believe they can get round on the race day.
LB - you're also welcome to join us. I'm having a BBQ after maybe enough incentive to travel down?
FTP is correct, you can run a marathon of the back of 14/15 mile long run. However, it wasn't a pleasant experience and fatigue set in much earlier. It was also not my first marathon and so I already had the mental capacity to talk myself round the latter stages.
I would always opt to do a long slow 20 in training for a full marathon event, even if it takes a long time.
Happychap - small world hey!
Would loved to have done 14 with you on Sunday but doing my long run tomorrow instead as my husband is off and is willing to come with me. May well come down on Sun but for slightly shorter run - I will mail you!
Liverbird - Are you doing the Dublin too (sorry, I have missed it somewhere!) Good luck with the rest of your training and will be interested to hear how we both progress. You are quick though - I'll wave as you overtake me at the start!!
They're a great club Suzy.
A couple of are doing autumn marathons (Loch Ness and Abingdon) and you are more than welcome to join us on long runs if you can make them.
Lots more will come out of hibernation for the Spring so you'll have loads of people to train with for your next mara
I have said on this thread more than once that ideally when training for a marathon the long run should be 20-23miles! Most people look at what the elites do and copy it blindly. They don't fully understand why they are doing a particular session.
An elite runs for 2-2.5hrs, (almost never over 3hrs) to deplete the glycogen stores in his legs (the average person as between 1500-2000cals). To run longer than this is pointless, it just burns a higher proportion of fat. The elites are running the next day also. How many people on here will be running the day after a 4hr session?, or for a few days! The reason people 'hit the wall' is because of glycogen depletion. Therefore as I have already said carbo-loading is very important prior to a marathon.
You hear people saying "well i'm building stamina mate", but they don't actually understand what stamina actually is. For anyone training for more than 3hrs , I hope you are bio-mechanically perfect, because if you aren't you are gonna suffer,.
NDO suggests you should run 20 miles without any acknowledgement to how long it will take you. Should a 6hr marathoner run 20miles in training?, probally 5.5hrs! I'm sorry to say, but the long run is not a one-off miracle cure, you will not wake up the next day a marathon beater.
NDO...I am lacking in intelligence, thats why I got into this debate with you! You remind me of Forest Gump in sheep clothing. I had a word with a few lads at the club tonight about you telling people to run for 4, 5 or maybe 6hrs (if this is what 20miles takes). It was quite amusing, their responses were worse than mine!, but they are obviously lacking in intelligence too.
My tuppence.... try to get the 20 miler in.
FTP, I actually do agree with some of your points.... when you articulate them in the right way they come across as intelligient and well worth reading. The problem is you have a tendancy to resort to some extremely childlike posting that, to be honest, comes across as arrogant and rude.
Back on topic.... as someone mentioned previously, we are all different and each of our bodies react in different ways... I know my body needs some good mileage in training and I know that my biggest challenge come race day will not be physical but will be mental... the long runs help me prepare for this mental challenge... come Chicago I will have had five 20+milers and probaly over ten other 15+ milers... won't work for everyone but works for me (though just off the back of four weeks of miserable training I think my PB is probably not going to be challenged this time!). However, giving a nod to FTP, I'll finish my 22 milers around 3hrs 10mins to 3hrs 15mins.... I do agree that anything over 3.5hrs is a long time to be out there... however, I would still advise trying to get up to the 18 mile range at least once.
That's the first time anybody's ever described me as quick!
FTP - I don't run the day after an LSR, but that's more because instinct tells me to give my body a break. I did feel I could've managed a run the next day though after the last 15 miler- and certainly after 24 hours rest, I was indeed straight back out there, albeit doing a 4 mile tempo run (the first of four days without a break) It wasn't a four hour session though, the 15 miler, but it was getting on for three.
I'm injury free, not biomechanically perfect (by any means) and maybe I am running more slowly than I need to. That's the thing about being a first timer - I simply can't tell you until I've gone the distance!
I think if somebody would need 6 hours to run their 20-miler training run, then they should not be considering running the marathon. I mean, let's face it, if you're fit enough for a marathon, you should probably be able to WALK 20 miles in 6 hours.
I'm not sure where that number of 6 hours came from though anyway?
Personally, if I was aiming for a 5 hr marathon (which I was, my first time), I'd want to do at least a 19 miler in training; I'd want to do it about 4 weeks before the race, to allow recovery; I'd want to do it at my target marathon pace (unlike faster and more experienced runners who may train slower than race pace);
and that would take me just over 3.5 hours, which is long, but well worth it.
Without that, I'd probably fall apart at around mile 19-21 on race day.
IMIB....thx for the advice. I explain this to my therapist but he just tells me to p*ss off. I'm not sure he's qualified!
I was tempted to say that anyone that can't run 18miles/3hrs (10min/mile) shouldn't really be running a marathon. They should stick to halfs and below. I knew this would alienate me and take us off topic. I wouldn't tell anyone not to do something, it is their choice.
Strongly agree with Mikefrog about the 'marathon' pace runs. I would be much happier to see some one doing a 15 mile session at 'marathon' pace, than a pedestrian 20miler.
I apply the 2/3rds rule to all of my races. I always try to get at least one session in at race pace for 2/3rds the distance. The marathon is unique, I would want a session of at least 15 miles( I know this isn't 2/3rds of a marathon) at race pace, 3/4 weeks prior to the race.
FTP, I'm glad my advice was useful to you
IMIB...Always happy to listen and take on constructive and intelligent advice.
I think you just did.
That really, really is the most ridiculous thing I've heard for a long time. Just because someone isn't as fast as you, should not exclude them from completing the distance.
The marathon is not a time trial - it's an endurance event!
Imagine if Paul Tergat decided YOU shouldn't run the marathon, because you can't do it in less than 2.15 and considered you an imposter?
I have a friend who has just taken an HOUR to complete the RFL. I cannot even begin to work out how she managed to take so long to do an event that I can clearly walk in that sort of time, especially as she says she "ran/walked" it. She has been having a torrid time recently, (that you really wouldn't believe, so I won't go into it), and she is so PROUD to have completed the distance, nothing else matters to her. I am proud of her for sticking with it and at the end of it, she has the same medal and T-shirt as those who bounded round the course in 20 minutes.
You may be the best marathonner in the world for all I know, but you appear to have missed the "spirit" of the marathon. For me, personally it is the ultimate challenge and to suggest a cut off time that would label me as a failure is hurtful. Dublin Marathon actively welcomes walkers and leaves the course open for 8 hours! (Not that I have any intention of walking it!)
I'm currently running my LSRs at 11mm and that's probably enough for me. I'm not a rubbish runner and I've gone a lot in faster in halves. I accept that marathon is not necessarily "my distance" but I'm having a go anyway.
So there. My two pennies worth! What does everyone else think?
Well, lots more food for thought on here since I last looked!
A lot of you seem to be suggesting running a decent distance long run at race pace a few weeks before the event - I can see the benefit of doing this psychologically, but I thought the whole idea was to save yourself for the big day and run LSR's slowly?? I have a half mara 6 weeks before the big day but was planning to do all my other Long runs relatively slowly.
I did 16 miles yesterday @ 12.30 pace which hurt A LOT (see Liverbird - compared to me you're Road Runner)
I had done a 4.6 mile run at quicker than 10k pace only two days before which I could definitely still feel in my legs - they were heavy from about 5 miles and it was a mental battle from there on really. A lesson for the future............ not to do a quick run so near to a long one.
On the positive, pleased to hear that Dublin is such a great event.
Mikefrog - Did you achieve your 5 hours first time round?
LB - Do you have a time goal?
I do have a time goal, Suzy - I just want my time to begin with a "4" and not a "5"!!!!!
I've just come back in from an 11 miler that I did at 10.45mm. (1.58.14)
That should see me through a 5 hour marathon, but as there's another 15 miles to go before I "go the distance" as it were, I don't know how I'll feel about it until the day. My legs are fine and my HR was not too high (137) during the run. I'm going well at the moment, but ask me again after next week's 17 mile LSR!
We're all different, Suzy and we'll all get different times on the day. But, as I've said before - unless you stand a chance of actually winning the race, we'll all get the same medal, and tee shirt and hopefully we'll all be proud of ourselves! (Which is as it should be)!
Good luck with next week's runs, Suzy!
Liverbird..I could walk the course in 8hrs and stop for a 2hour lunch! If people want to simply say "I've completed a marathon", then thats entirely up to them. I never suggested a cut-off time so don't be naughty!
If you had quoted my next line it said, "I wouldn't tell anyone not to do something, its their choice".
I never meant the 18miles/3hrs as an elitism thought. It was meant really as a 'warning'. I think sometimes people who have never run, just decide in a mad moment to run a marathon. These people would be better off lowering their sights a little and attempt a 10 miler, half or even a 20 miler. Then after a year/or two of running attempt the marathon.
'Spirit' of a marathon, I thought it was a race, silly me. Then again I've never understood all that spirit stuff (I hate it when people are smiling before a race!
) thats why my marathons were low key local races.
You're right LB - my resolution from my tough run yesterday is to take one run at a time and I will plan my goal much nearer the time when I have seen how all the training has gone.
Well done on your 11 miler - great pace but much more importantly you felt good! I am also going to do 17 next weekend so will be interested to compare notes. Do you take gels or anything on your longer runs? I took a gel for the first time yesterday but only one and I think I left it a bit late (10 miles) and already felt tired!
I'm watching the Olympic mens marathon for inspiration and to remind myself not to get carried away on the big day!!
