Riots...

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Comments

  • E mmyE mmy ✭✭✭

    Just to put another side of it. Lots of my friends are joining in the following movement this morning and speading the news via Facebook and twitter.

    http://46.183.9.169/Riot_Clean_Up.html (sorry - link doesnt seem to want to work on my mac)

    They're in locations all around London helping with the clean up.

  • Just to clarify Chingontico....I'm neither a Daily Mail reader nor right wing!

    I'm sticking up for the hardworking, law-abiding people who are having their lives destroyed.

  • Jeez our cats peed on our bed when we were on holiday (it was not nice) does that mean that they are going to start a riot soon... I thought I was just going to have to pay for a new mattress..image
  • When i say political its not a party political issue, labour under blair and brown were hardly occupying a radically different perpective economically to the tories...the tories just push it all the way to the extreme in pushing private ownership over state initiatives...when the tories cuts really hit home i just expect it to get alot worse....as the phrase goes 'socialise the losses, privatise the profits'...this is simply in line with conservative ideology through the decades....labour came late to the neo liberal economic party to attract the centre right which is obviously the majority in a britain that sells more copies of the sun and the daily mail than anything else.

    When i say daily mail reading, i mean the views synonymous with that putrid publication rather than an actual subscription and comments such as...

    "This is about lousy parenting and falling standards in a society that has been going too soft for far too long.Get the army in and give the idiots something to really complain about."

    Sound precisely like an editorial in the daily mail or from jeremy kyle image, you might not choose to call yourself right wing because of the negative connotations but i fail to see how that above comment can be considered anything but....and likewise demonising 'the pc brigade' is a common daily fail theme!

  • Can any good come out of this? If so what are the chances of it happening?
  • ToroToro ✭✭✭
    Rowan Green wrote (see)

    Thought I'd raise a metaphor I've used elsewhere...

    If your pet cat pees on your bed you might get annoyed and upset.  But punishing them won't stop it happening again.  You have to work out why the cat did it (could be it's ill, or scared by something).  Of course humans are capable (well, in most cases) of thinking things through and realising that 'peeing on the bed' isn't a good way to improve things for themselves.  For that reason I do agree that the people involved should be punished.  But if we want to stop it happening again, we have to find out the reasons.

    Kill it.  It won't do it again.

  • SuperCazSuperCaz ✭✭✭

    I'm truely shocked about all of this.  Hubby is currently in Israel.  Last time he went there was just before the Government was attacked and he was one of the last flights out before they shut the airport.  How ironic that at the moment he is probably safer where he is than back home.

    I think there are lots of different groups of people who are rioting and not just one type as people are tending to make out.  I think there are those who believe that they have genuine grievances, a few who probably do have genuine grievances, some who are angry about other issues and are just using this as a way to vent their frustrations, some criminal types, some oportunistic types and a few kids who think its fun to jump on the band wagon.  There are lots of causes and therefore no simple way of resolving it in the long term.

    I also blame the media.  I've just heard that they are expecting trouble in Brighton tonight.  Now, if I was the type who wanted to riot and loot, where do you think I would be heading at this moment in time?

    The media are partly to blame for raising everyone's expectations of how life should be.  They are constantly telling us that we deserve better, that others are holding us down, that we need to fight for justice and our human rights.  Well, the media are reaping what they have sown.  i suspect that their takings will be up as a result.

    I could go on.  This issue is so complex that I think that all of the posters on this thread have got it right in some way.  What really worries me is that at the moment I can't see any resolution to this that will make people happy.  Whatever the police and politicians do won't be right by some group of people (acted too tough, not tough enough...) and so where is the incentive to actually sit down and sort this out properly.  Emotions are high and will only get higher before it is all resolved.

  • NamNam ✭✭✭
    Chingoncito wrote (see)

    When i say political its not a party political issue, labour under blair and brown were hardly occupying a radically different perpective economically to the tories...the tories just push it all the way to the extreme in pushing private ownership over state initiatives...when the tories cuts really hit home i just expect it to get alot worse....as the phrase goes 'socialise the losses, privatise the profits'...this is simply in line with conservative ideology through the decades....labour came late to the neo liberal economic party to attract the centre right which is obviously the majority in a britain that sells more copies of the sun and the daily mail than anything else.

    When i say daily mail reading, i mean the views synonymous with that putrid publication rather than an actual subscription and comments such as...

    "This is about lousy parenting and falling standards in a society that has been going too soft for far too long.Get the army in and give the idiots something to really complain about."

    Sound precisely like an editorial in the daily mail or from jeremy kyle image, you might not choose to call yourself right wing because of the negative connotations but i fail to see how that above comment can be considered anything but....and likewise demonising 'the pc brigade' is a common daily fail theme!


    If it makes me "conservative" or "right wing" to think that:

    - looting is unacceptable
    - setting fire to other people's property and accommodation is unacceptable
    - robbing a bleeding and injured young man of his rucksack's belonging is unacceptable
    - for law abiding hardworking people to live in fear is unacceptable
    - for people to be deprived of their livelyhoods is unacceptable

    Then fine... label me if that makes you feel better.

    Funny I was actually reading the Observer over brekkie on Sunday, but seemingly I can only do so now if I believe it's ok for prisoners to be able to sue because they slipped on a wet patch on the wing?

    I wonder if you were half as "understanding" and liberal if this was your lad that was robbed while he was bleeding, or your shop that got cleaned out, or your flat that got burned down?  Always easy to attempt to elevate yourself morally and intellectually over people who are justifyably very angry when you're not directly affected.  Personally I'm thinking where is your empathy and solidarity with those people who have done absolutely NOTHING to deserve this, but if it makes you feel clever then good for you.

  • Corinthian wrote (see

    Just to clarify - friend in the TA's unit has not been mobilised; he was contacted by his CO and asked if he'd consider volunteering as a 'Special' at short notice.

    Just to note. Option has always been there. Those that have recently just left the armed forces will be asked the same question.

    Short cut to getting more plod on the ground. You have a body of trained men/women that are use to taking orders, security cleared and not "HOT" from other operations. They will be sworn in in as a  "special" no link to the armed forces taken with them as such. Not scary, just practical.

    Suprised Wales has not kicked off yet!

  • Well firstly the moment the coalition came to power I said there would be riots within two years as cuts and the dismantling of society and hope was introduced. However i expected student loans or a similar issue to mirror the poll tax riots of the 80s. Also when you make those social decisions, cutting the Police Budget on top is asking for trouble to run , literally, riot.

     So having got that out of the way the current situation has nothing to do with anything like that. it is pure criminality.

    Also what is with the arson. I can understand at least some logic, but in no way accept or condone, why somebody might loot (criminal but they cna make money or acquire goods) but what on earth does setting light to things give them,. Absolutely nothing and destroys their own neighbourhood !!

    Got a panicked phone call from my aunt last night who lives 200M from what used to be Reeves corner in Croydon. That shop has been there 140 years, was as much of a landmark as the Parish Church or Old Palace. She was petrified and didn't sleep last night.

    I don't think the army should go in, they really are set up to do something else. However the Police do need to use force. That does mean they need to wield those batons. In turn that does mean we need to accept right now that some rioters will suffer serious injury and there may be a death. A serious point because this all kicked off originally because the Polce shot a Gunman. Then people riot. It is a direct challenge to society to say that we can do what we want and the if the police do anything we will riot and they will be blamed! Are you surprised therefore that the rioters don't think they can lose and the police don't think they can win.

     So the Police cuts need to be stopped, both numbers but also equipment, riot training and riot trained officers specifically (all things that have been targetted).

    Then we let the Police use force and ACCEPT that people will be injured. It also means that an innocent bystander might get caught up although less than allowing the rioters a free hand. We cannot blame the police everytime and expect them to then solve these problems. They are stood there thinking will people support us if we steam in, nonetheless knowing they will get blamed if they don't.

  • WombleWomble ✭✭✭
    SuperCaz wrote (see)

    I think there are lots of different groups of people who are rioting and not just one type as people are tending to make out.  I think there are those who believe that they have genuine grievances, a few who probably do have genuine grievances, some who are angry about other issues and are just using this as a way to vent their frustrations, some criminal types, some oportunistic types and a few kids who think its fun to jump on the band wagon.  There are lots of causes and therefore no simple way of resolving it in the long term.

    I agree. However, I do not believe that anyone can possibly justify looting and ransacking in the way we have seen over the last few days. If you have a grievance then pursue it through relevant channels, don't just go on the rob.

    As for the injured lad in the video, I hope that one of the others who were present at the time name the person who stole the stuff from his rucsac. What sort of person stoops that low?

  • NamNam ✭✭✭
    Brooks the beast wrote (see)

    Well firstly the moment the coalition came to power I said there would be riots within two years as cuts and the dismantling of society and hope was introduced. However i expected student loans or a similar issue to mirror the poll tax riots of the 80s. Also when you make those social decisions, cutting the Police Budget on top is asking for trouble to run , literally, riot.

    I agree on the police cuts bit but disagree with the notion that these people are rioting to express their discontent with the original Tootenham shooting incident or anything to do with tuition fees etc etc.  This is entirely without a cause (other than being bored and personal gain). 

    I bet you could ask any of those currently in the cells of Bristol who Mark Duggan is or what the Liberal's pre-election propsals on education were and you would not get a single coherent answer.

    Just heard from a friend's friend who is a manager in Tesco in East London somewhere and she had her staff assaulted and glassed.  Shelf stackers in Tesco working for a minimum wage... again, hardly the embodyment of capitalism are they?

  • JT141JT141 ✭✭✭
    I've got a bunch of middle-aged white people together and we're off to loot Waitrose. It's a political statement about something or other. Does anyone need any sun dried tomato pesto sauce getting?
  • Good post BTB.

    Except, there are huge problems with the Met; they've lost credibility with plenty of people who should be their natural supporters. The kettling of largely peaceful protests over tuition fees/cuts, high profile deaths in custody and during legitimate protests, the links with News International means that they are widely distrusted by some inner London community groups; who they should be working closely with. Also, they're seen to not take responsibility for mistakes and have been caught out by 'citizen' video on more than one occasion.

    They've lost authority and as such, lost valuable allies. However, saying that - who else is going to bring this lawlessness to heel?

    Now, there's a huge balancing act for them to take on - stop this lawlessness firmly but fairly; if they go in too heavy handed then they'll be seen as the military wing of the Government and all hell might break loose as the Government/s of the last 15 years have succeeded in politicising many of the young who are not rioting... and some of them are very angry indeed.
  • If the reasons for riot(bar the shooting) are tax,benifits,cuts what ever the goverment has f8cked up on...........why are the Welsh valleys and Scottish lowlands quiet? Area that have been sh*t on and have a lot of issues but as far as I can tell, Queen Street in Cardiff and Edinuburgh are still standing.
  • SuperCazSuperCaz ✭✭✭
    Womble, I agree that it is not acceptable and actually stupid on a lot of levels.  It concerns me that people feel that they can't go through the proper channels, or that they have tried and not succeeded.  What sort of situation gets so frustrating that people feel that this is their only course of action? (again, I conceed that for some it has nothing to do with grievances)
  • NamNam ✭✭✭
    Try Taffia wrote (see)
    If the reasons for riot(bar the shooting) are tax,benifits,cuts what ever the goverment has f8cked up on...........why are the Welsh valleys and Scottish lowlands quiet? Area that have been sh*t on and have a lot of issues but as far as I can tell, Queen Street in Cardiff and Edinuburgh are still standing.
    LOL if they touch his beloved John Lewis, Rodney Berman is going to go apoplectic. 
  • We should remember that some of these people aren't interested in airing grievances through the "proper channels" or, indeed, any sort of engagement even within their own communities.

    They are part of a gang subculture, busy engaging in criminal activity, fighting a turf war with other gangs over what they perceive as "their" territories and basically killing one another.

  • Nam wrote (see)
    Try Taffia wrote (see)
    If the reasons for riot(bar the shooting) are tax,benifits,cuts what ever the goverment has f8cked up on...........why are the Welsh valleys and Scottish lowlands quiet? Area that have been sh*t on and have a lot of issues but as far as I can tell, Queen Street in Cardiff and Edinuburgh are still standing.
    LOL if they touch his beloved John Lewis, Rodney Berman is going to go apoplectic

    It's no where near Primark so should be safe.................................

  • NamNam ✭✭✭
    Try Taffia wrote (see)
    Nam wrote (see)
    Try Taffia wrote (see)
    If the reasons for riot(bar the shooting) are tax,benifits,cuts what ever the goverment has f8cked up on...........why are the Welsh valleys and Scottish lowlands quiet? Area that have been sh*t on and have a lot of issues but as far as I can tell, Queen Street in Cardiff and Edinuburgh are still standing.
    LOL if they touch his beloved John Lewis, Rodney Berman is going to go apoplectic

    It's no where near Primark so should be safe.................................

    I was going to say one could always shelter in Waterstones across the road... they won't touch a book shop!!
  • The Sky reporter at Clapham Junction last night said Waterstones had been left untouched...what a surprise!
  • NamNam ✭✭✭

    KK I think hers is a sentiment of many "normal" people's take on this.

    Just saw interview with 80-year old shop owner whose family business dating back to 1867 has been destroyed.  They only had about 10 staff or so.  His business has survived 2 world wars and gets destroyed like this.  image

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14456853 

  • NamNam ✭✭✭

    Oh Christ I was wondering when she'd give her 2 pence worth...

    Camilla Batmangelidgh tells people on Radio 5 that the people rioting are the "ignored underclass" and that this is them "taking revenge"

    She says "London has woken up to street violence, and the usual narratives have emerged – punish those responsible for the violence because they are "opportunist criminals" and "disgusting thieves". The slightly more intellectually curious might blame the trouble on poor police relations or lack of policing."

    So basically if you don't believe it's everyone else's fault, you're stupid! image
  • Interesting to read the comments on this on the New York Times website - lots of them think the US may well be next.
  • i dont know much about this,but i have to say im really hating the suggestions that the people who are doing this,are "disenchanted" or "hard done by",give me a break,im not working at the moment and desperately trying to find work as are alot of people here and all over the country,but we are not down the local sainsburys lobbing bricks through the windows because of it,its just a lack of regard for the law,for other people and other people's property and livelihoods.it may have started out as a protest against the police for shooting that man,who was alledgedly carrying a gun(if you live by the gun,expect to die by it is my opinion) but has been used as an excuse by total idiots,to lay waste to the place,thus causing god knows how much damage,in monetary terms,where do these idiots think that money will come from? makes me not want to live here anymore.
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