Sub 3

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Comments

  • Brian61Brian61 ✭✭✭

    FWIW, here's my take on HM training (as opposed to Mara training):

    1. Long run cut from 20-23 to 12-16miles.

    2. Tempo runs cut from 4-12 to 3-6miles.

    3. Shorter intervals, instead of reps of between 800m and 2Miles, do reps of between 400m and 1Mile.

  • How many people are actually entered into the helsby four villages half marathon, we could actually have a really good group chasing 74:59 by the looks of things???
  • HampoHampo ✭✭✭

    Selbs - Crikey, you are right, bloody hell. Was meant to say 85 mins for the Half at Helsby or Wilmslow. Good start to my posting!!!  

  • Brian61Brian61 ✭✭✭
    Having said that, looking back I have done my best halves on the back of mara training!
  • selbsselbs ✭✭✭

    no worries Hampo and good luck with it.

    I'd agree with Brian's post on finding MP - but add that doing 10 miles of it in a medium long run is flippen hard work!  i guess my approach my last decent marathon was to try and do 8-10 miles in a medium long run at "hopeful or target" marathon pace and just take the HR that it gave me though.  I guess i found that flippen hard as it probably wasn't my actual MP the first few times i tried it so i had a few blow ups!

  • Brian61Brian61 ✭✭✭

    Selbs, agree with you on the hard work bit. Seem to remember you attempting those runs at your target pace though - were you trying 6m/m pace?

    I think for Hampo it would be better just to get an idea of current mp, and then build from there?
                                         
                                                       

  • MtRMtR ✭✭✭

    My best marathon campaign was for London 09. I'd run 2:59 at Abingdon in October, maintained a decent base through November and December with a weekly track session, then stepped it up in January - March. Did 4 fast finish Long runs including 2 with 5 mile chunks getting progressively faster (7:00, 6:45, 6:30, 6:15) and 1 20 mile race (5 @ 7:00, 15 @ 6:30). Ran 2:51 on the day, and felt strong the whole way round.

    After that I decided more miles and more leg strength was the route to success. I dropped the speedwork, did lots of long hilly off road stuff (including 2 coast path marathons).

    And then it all went wrong. I've been pretty shit since the start of 2010. Too many slow miles, not enough speedwork, sciatica pains, hamstring cramps. Currently 'rebooting' my training for another crack at VLM next year. Plan is to replicate my 2009 campaign with 2 speed sessions (track session plus etiher a tempo session/short race and alternate slow long runs with faster ones)

  • Well MtR that doesn't bode well for my plan which is:

    2012 build to 100 mpw (lots of easy running)
    2013 maintain mileage, introduce speedwork, and run my lifetime best

    Am I planning too far ahead?

  • Brian61Brian61 ✭✭✭

    FR, whats the reasoning behind your extended plan?

    On the face of it, it looks like you want to build an aerobic base. But a year to do it? 6 weeks or 12 weeks max would be my idea of a good base?

  • Brian, I got up to a regular 60 mpw over summer 2010 with no niggles whatsoever. Last winter I went to 70 mpw, including 7 day running and doubles for the first time, and ended up having to take a few weeks off and miss some races with niggles. Again this summer I went up to about 75-80mpw (peaked with a 101 mile week which probably wasn't clever), again attempting 7 day running, doubles and introducing regular speedwork. I picked up a groin/lower abdomen issue which I still have 4 months later, and then various other niggles which really messed up my training.

    Before either I get bored of running, or I get too old (41 now), or life gets too busy, I want to find out what I am capable of and I want to feel as though I gave it my best shot. I think that will require 100mpw or more. But at the moment I'm not sure my body can even manage 70mpw. So I was planning to focus next year just on getting my body used to high mileage, with a very gradual build up and lots of easy running.

    It may be that I've failed before because I've tried to introduce too much at once. Or possibly I panic too much at niggles and should just get on with it regardless.

    For some probably irrational reason I've had it in my head for a while now that I will run my lifetime bests in 2013.

  • Brian61Brian61 ✭✭✭

    FR, If I were you I'd delay the huge mileage plan a little, and employ a plan similar to this:

    1. Rid yourself of your current injury by appropriate rehab (physio/rest/massage etc).

    2. Decide why you were injured in the first place, and combat the weakness. This may be flexibility/muscular and more likely to be core weakness.

    3. Strengthen and condition so the injuries are less likely to recur. This may involve yoga/pilates/circuit training/core work etc.

    4. Build your base, remembering to carry out any maintenance work to safeguard your prior weaknesses.

    5. Run your pb's.

    I think as distance runners we tend to neglect the flexibility/core/strength and conditioning work, and as a consequence, we get injured or breakdown. Hopefully this type of approach will enable you to run the required number of miles to achieve your goals.

  • Thanks Brian. Very interesting. I will probably pester you with questions at some point...
  • TRTR ✭✭✭

    MtR - maybe you're too old too, like Gobi !

    FR - you'll spontaneously combust before you get to 100mpw. Not really sure why you want to change whats just worked, even if you repeat the same training block exactly you'll still get quicker through consistency.

  • So we'll have an old codger race-off at VLM then tigerrunner. Me, you, Wardi, Dull? Any others?

    Running Bear I'm now in semi retirement. I've started cramping in my LSR for the first time and now realise the long stuff has to go. Still not 100% certain though. So no VLM for me next year.

    Brian Stonking performance from you at Abingdon. The first V50 to come through the ranks of the thread and do the Sub 3. Mega stuff.

    Tiger Runner good luck with your next sub 3 attempt. I think UR a bit older than me so a V55 sub would be remarkable.

    Magic score from marders in Berlin. You have been noticed now in NZ. I spotted that they have you there at the top of the NZ 2011 marathon rankings for the first time. Second best is 2.23 and he is even older than you so the Olympics beckons. Rest assured if you make I'll be there in town to support.

    Sorry I'm not here as much as I should cannot get on at work any more.

    I did notice Running Bears MHR of 192. I did mention my recent health scare which I wont bore you with, but I did finish on a treadmill at a local hospital and found out my RHR was 58 and my supposed max was 171 although they took me off before I could pop into my race pace coma so it might be a couple of beats higher than that.
    As it turns out there was nothing wrong with me at all.

    Still running around 30mpw average but with little or no desire to race.

    As ever best wishes to you all and massive apologies to those I may have missed.

    Dull








  • Mr BoatMr Boat ✭✭✭
    FR: I'm also a coffin dodger and this year I've completed two 18wk P&D schedules (up to 87mi) and I'll do the same in Dec/Jan for VLM12. Don't really feel the need for too many more miles but feel I'm feeling stronger this time, post marathon, than for the first one. I think it's just consistency and I think the 80 mile weeks will come even easier next time. I'm certainly not  thinking of putting a 100mi week in, although I could. Nothing definite yet but I'm seriously considering training for  6.15m/m next time, to start with at least. A couple of medium long runs mid week with recovery runs in the right places soon build the mileage. Not sure of your target time and maybe you will need the 100mi + weeks.
  • Oh I forgot!

    Belated Happy Birthday to Wardi
  • WardiWardi ✭✭✭

    Cheers Dull, a good day was had.  Nice to learn that your health is ok after all but obviously sorry about the long distance running.   Ever thought of taking up cycling?  image

    Selbs.. you will love it up in York  - the beer's cheap!

  • HampoHampo ✭✭✭

    SaintJason - Apologies for missing your earlier post, the thread you did was great mate and you got a great time, found it recently and starting reading it again along with the sub 2.30. I do live in the glorious northwest, Warrington for my sins. I have entered Helsby and wilmslow. Why did they change your profile picture?

     Dull Napolean - My max HR is 195,my mate did not believe me for ages and thought I was a freak. I did read somewhere a cross country skier  has a MHR of 205.

    Did 8 miles tonight, did it over a undulating course. Thought I would look at where I am in regards to my MP. Did 2 miles at steady state (75% - 80%HR) 7.27,7.21 and 2 Miles at Current MP 7.15, 7.11. Quite happy with that and felt good. Love running at just under Aerobic threshold. 

  • TR wrote (see)
    FR - Not really sure why you want to change whats just worked.

     
    Because I want to go so much faster. I know that I could train much, much harder. I was relieved to get 2:44 after a disrupted campaign, but I've only just scraped my C target for the year.

    I have to admit that I'd always thought upping the mileage was a no-brainer. Very interested to hear other opinions. 

    Mr Boat - to be honest following a schedule is something I haven't done yet. I was planning to up the mileage and then follow one, but maybe it's about time I did one.

  • Brian- I tried your idea of mara pace feeling like 10k effort and did 8miles in 56:18 @6:37pace, felt strong all the way, also decided to call that my speed work for this week image
    Fr - I'd try the advanced marathoning book, I'm currently following it, its more mileage based than speed work based so is quite kind on the calf's for example. the book has a up to 50 mile, 50-77mpw schedule, a 77-85mpw schedule and 85-100+mpw schedule. I'm currently doing the 70 mile week with every fourth or fifth week reduced to about 20miles max for recovery. I think the 18week scedules are on the internet, if not the book is a really good investment for sub 3runners especially sub 2:40ers and the like. image
  • Ooo geeking out talking paces.. love it image

    TR - In my absence I missed your recent history but thanks for bringing me up to speed. Very insightful as ever. Base for me too through winter with a bit of faster stuff in there but really nothing to write home about.

    For example this week rather than a burn-up at the club I went out on Tuesday for a steady 8 miles and picked the pace up for 3 or so miles clocking in around 6:30 average. I think this is fine for now. Just reminding the legs what that pace feels like once a week is okay I reckon. All other runs are pretty much by feel but are coming out around 7:10 - 7:40 pace.

    My weekend long runs are 15 hilly miles (well 5 miles up hill followed by undulating/descending miles) but that is very relaxed. I often clock an 8:xx first couple of miles but average out at 7:30's usually. Steady eddy.

    Hampo - We'll be in the same running groups pretty much then over the next few months if you are aiming at 85 and sub-3 around the same races as me. I run for Sale. No idea who that good looking imposter is on my profile page for that Super Six thread or why I was removed. Although thinking about it I stopped my subscription so...
  • Brian61Brian61 ✭✭✭
    Dull, Good to hear from you. You will be missed at VLM.
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    SJ - 7:10 to 7:40 is positively speedy, I'm always in the 8's nowadays. Makes things like that recent 1/2 mara a shock !
  • GobiGobi ✭✭✭
    My general/easy running has always been high 7s and into the 8s. They get slower through the winter.

    HR is only a very low 185max.

    Not running today as giving my leg another rest day.
  • Brian61Brian61 ✭✭✭

    Easy running is anything between 7:45 and 9:00m/miling. I work on HRmax being 190, but this was recorded 3 years ago. Should really do another max test. Maxed at 184 during marathon last sunday. Resting is normally 40-44, depending on the phase of training.

  • TmapTmap ✭✭✭

    I'm thinking of doing this - www.run24.co.uk

    24 hour race; part of me is tempted to try it solo, but a team of 2 or 3 clubmates would be good too.

    Any of our resident ultra nutjobs have an opinion?  As a 5-mile loop, that's an awful lot of loops, but then logistically it means I just pitch my tent, stuff it with snacks and pop in for a feed/rest whenever.

  • selbsselbs ✭✭✭

    Brian - no chance MP 6m/m - thats not much slower than my HM PB!!!  i was doing those MP runs aiming at target MP of 6:17 for Abo last year - and they usually averaged out to around 6:15-20 if i didnt blow up.  But by marathon day i managed to average the 6:17 spot on.  Yeah new target MP IF i ever get fit again and don't break down might be nearer 6 - but it's so far off that i can't even think about that - i think i'll be lucky to get back to around 2:50 fit by VLM.  if that hapens - i might try and kick on for a good autumn campaign though next year, but main aim at the mo is just to get fit and have some fun (doing things like "the wall" and enjoying/getting to the start line of VLM for once.

    too scared to measure my resting HR at the mo.  when fit it gets down to around 35, at the mo - it's probably 60!  Likewise those max tests scare me as i think i am going to pop a hamstring or something so havne't done one for about 3 years but i work off around 185.

    my sensible build up scuppered this morning by the rugby being on - so i plodded out a slow (8:15m/m) 65 minutes.  legs sore now after 2 days in a row of running for an hour (after months of virtually nothing).  plan this week was originally to do 2 days on 1 day off, and no more than 3 miles.  then again i've never been good at sticking to plans.  2 days off now and quite a bit of partying on the cards image

    why does your easy running get slower through the winter Gobi?  By choice - or just takes longer to warm up?

    Wardi - yes looking forward to up norf - can u recommend any restaurants (to take my wife.. bribery) - bit of a shock last ngiht when happy hour ended and i found myself getting 1 pound change for a round out of £40!!!!  flippen people and their weird drinks, whats wrong with beer! image

  • GobiGobi ✭✭✭
    Selbs - choice, after a period of down time I build back slowly. Winter base is for my aerobic development so is slower.

    Tmap - I could be tempted by a team go at this, 4 runners with good speed would make it interesting. Short stints during the day and then long stints at night.
  • Brian61Brian61 ✭✭✭

    Selbs, apologies. Thats just another thing that starts to fail with age - memory. Now, where was I? I do remember feeling your pain in those runs though. Especially since i tend to whimp out somewhat and do the watered down versions. Whereby you jumped straight into attempting target pace, I start off at 80% (which starts off 7m/m+), stick at 80% till the improvement plateaus (normally at 6:45-6:55 pace), and then step it up to 83% which normally becomes my target pace (and my target HR for the 1st 6 miles). Enjoy the 2 day party!

    My calves are just about ok to walk on now. And I was tempted to run this lunchtime, but I'm sticking to the plan of a whole week off exercise.

    Gobi/Tmap, Will they allow more than 1 lap at a time per team member?

  • GobiGobi ✭✭✭
    Brian - at all the others I have read about the team can decide how it breaks up the laps
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