What went wrong during my Marathon?

Hi all,

Kevin here from Switzerland. I would like to share my marathon experiences and get your opinions.

One year ago I completed my first marathon in Lausanne, Switzerland.... great scenery if you ever get the chance! 4:12 was my time.

Split was approx 1:50 for the first half, and feeling great. My main objective was to complete the marathon between 4 to 4:30, but with the way I felt, sub 4 seemed tantalisingly possible.

Until 30km I drank one standard bottle of gatorade, and ate some small snacks. Breakfast was a small cheese sandwich about 3.5 hours before. Around 32km (20m) I started to feel nautious in my stomach and my pace slowed. This continued to get worse until 36km when dead thighs added to the mix, and I slowed even further. The last 5km a death march with some walking and stopping, the major problem being the nautious feeling which felt like I could potentially throw up.

Temperature on the day was 13 deg C, I wore standard shorts and technical short sleeve t shirt.

I managed to pick up pace again for the last 500m, but after the finish line i was shaking quite badly and couldnt get the proffered cup of soup into my mouth. After five minutes of trying to recover, I visited the medical tent and eventually was hooked up to a saline drip. The nurse said I had mild hypothermia. She suggested that my inner body core cooled down a bit much because i did not drink enough during the run.

I also felt that my stomach is rather on the delicate side. A few times afterwards I played five a side football about 3 hours after eating and had a similar nautious feeling.

Therefore my conclusions were thus
a) I didnt drink enough during the race
b) My stomach cannot handle too much food unless well in advance
c) I probably should have worn a little more clothing.

Regarding this first marathon, do you guys agree?

Skip forward a year and I feel I have learned my lessons, so I entered the same marathon again. Drank a lot more, ate less (and a very little breakfast), and wore more warm clothing. Same approximate temperature. Once again, the euphoria of the day and my adrenaline led me to run faster than in training. I had been tempted to follow the 4 hour pacemaker but knew that I had energy to spare and tend to fade after a certain time whatever the case. So off I go again and do 1:50 first half.

This time, I got the same nautious feeling even earlier, around the 25km mark, which built more slowly but eventually joined up with the dead legs again which led me to feel really bad and go from 5:20 per km to 7:10 per km or something around there. I cannot be certain but Im fairly sure that I could feel liquid sloshing around in my stomach when nautious and this wasnt helping.

Net result 4:07 for this second marathon. This time I was however able to drink the soup, and although again shaking I was just about ok and recovered within about ten minutes to a relatively normal self.

Yep, its a personal best and it is not life or death whether I beat the 4 hour mark, but I would like to understand better what it is that I am doing wrong. During the pre marathon training, I was able to run the longest 35km training run without getting nautious (although I was tiring). In fact during all the two training periods i was only nautious during the actual marathons.

I would have the time and enthusiasm to do a third marathon next april (something that I was swearing I would never do by the 38km mark of the actual day I can tell you!), but this time I really would like to finish without without feeling so awful.

What do you guys think? I have my suspicions on what to do but want to hear your opinions first!!!

Cheers

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Comments

  • It sounds like you hit the wall. I'd be looking at your training; did you do enough long runs at a slow enough pace/low enough heartrate to really train your aerobic system? That's the commonest reason for flying along at half way then stuggling in the last quarter...
  • You ran a marathon fuelled by a small cheese sandwich and then experimented by eating even less?

    I'm baffled

  • Errr. 1.50 too fast. 10 secs per mile too fast first half = 2 mins per mile slower second. Next time go out at 2hrs and if you've got it in reserve, use it. Otherwise stick to the pace. 1.50 first = 3.40 whole and way ahead of what you'd trained for. Listen to perceived and proven advice. Start slower, aim for -ve or even split and enjoy. 1 ltre of fluid per hour and dress for the occassion. Good luck on the next one
  • Hey Kev.
    Training wise: any marathon-pace runs? How many and what distance? How did the way your pace varied on these runs (e.g. start out at 5:50 min/km finish at 5:25 min/km, or e.g do the whole run at 5:40 min/km) differ from how you paced your marathons on race day?

    Did you do any long runs where you finished at or close to your planned marathon pace - e.g. 28k where the last 7k were at 5:40 mins/km, say? If so, how did they go and what distances / paces did you choose?

    In general how did you fuel your long runs and what pace did you do them at?

    Did you carbo-load before either race?
  • What Tiago said... Way too fast for first half... 2 hrs + would be better

    Plus decent bowl of pasta the night before.

    Sports drink on the day before if stomach a problem.. during the race 1 doesn't sound enough, 2 better or gels / jelly babies whatever.

    I did a good chunk of my long run training at Fidos marathon pace too.

    More long runs past 20 miles (km ?) and later stages at marathon pace
  • K L 11K L 11 ✭✭✭

    Thanks for your replies so far.

    Tiago and others: Yes I agree I went off too fast, but what actually happened to my body do you guys think... did i get hypothermic because of this, is it natural to feel nautious, and why did i have the feeling of water sloshing around in my stomach?

    Kicked it: Yep, not everyone can eat that much before or during sport... I have heard of people having full english breakfast before the marathon, and others who cannot eat anything at all. I tend rather to the cannot eat side of the spectrum, otherwise I am getting ill, but i do not know why.

    Crash hamster: I have heard that slower runs during training can be better but I assume that learning to train at my marathon pace caused more problems here?

    Tinsel Celt: negative splits on marathons only happen to about 5% of people, and I can safely say I am unlikely to enter that parallel universe. But point taken!

    Fido: I followed the nikeplus programme fairly faithfully (and did carbo load the last few days) but I would say the longer runs I did of course do slower than on the big day. I am aware that I ran too fast on the marathon day compared to my training runs, but I am curious what actually happened to my body and what would likely happen if i ran more slowly (or ideally upped my training pace and matched that at the marathon). Would I avoid nausea?

    Basically is nausea like i described a common thing? 

  • Hi there,

    after 5 marathons (and various experiences) I can only comment on the tough points and positives from my own races...

    4/5 have been in hot conditions in the spring after training in cold winter temps, which has always been a problem for me as I suffer in heat....temperature is something that can affect a performance (hydration)as your body will be working overtime to maintain an optimum level...

    A cheese sandwich is the first thing I would look at for breakfast, anecdotal reference to some reading I came across for this suggests that protein before a race could lead to some stomach discomfort, though I imagine that a small amount of cheese is hardly going to unsettle most. I do feel a lack of carbs and the space between the breakfast and start gun to be too long apart...porridge or oats are slow burning and will stay with you longer...

    Running a marathon pace is also crucial, not the eventual long run as if you are completing your final 20miler without incorporating your MP pace in any of these runs then, as I found in my first, the energy just goes....and makes the last 6.2 miles a massive barrier...

    I think running faster on race day, as you pointed out seemed to be the main culprit which you have clearly identified.
    I wish you all the best, you've come down to 4.07 and I'm sure getting a sub 4 will happen for you!! If you can get a half race down to a 1.45 then sure you'll crack it!!
  • Sounds like there's a couple of problems to pull apart and fix in subsequentr training KL 11.

    First problem - practising nutrition for long runs.

    Second problem - training on specific paces.

    We've no insights into the depth and quality of your training but basically, the more you do, the more your body is adapted to the various stresses it goes under (physical, metabolic, climate adjustment etc).  I don't do all my marathon training at a slow pace. On every other long run i will insert sections of race pace (about 86% max. HR) and i do other training sessions faster than race pace (lactate threshold around 88-90% MHR and intervals 90-98% MHR. Basically, mix it up.

    You should be rehearsing race fuelling during long runs. Train your stomach to cope with food pre-race (slow carb food types) and during running (faster carbohydrates from gels, drinks and light snacks). It's not enough to say you have a tendency to not enjoy this. Experiment and practice until you find what reliably works. Also, try sports drinks which blend two types of sugars (glucose and fructose). Fructose alone has a tendency to be a bit disruptive.

    The sloshing in your stomach sounds like it is a stress reaction - not sure what to. But it could be an indication that your guts are searching for nutrition....

    Anyway, good luck, use your time to find something that works - I hear onmce you've done 15 marathons, you start to get good at it. Am training for my 9th. Much to learn still.

    image

  • Good advice from everyone. If it was me I would be looking at racing the Marathon with even Splits. Do you use a GPS watch to check your pace? Also Test  your nutrition strategy during training ie what  type of Breakfast sits comfortably while running. I would also try using whatever brand of sport drink is handed out during the race while training as your  stomach might not agree with them on the day. If I were you I would also do some fast but short distance interval training to complement your longer runs. This will raise your lactic threshold which is probably causing you to feel sick. As for Hypothermia why not start your run with some gloves on? You can allways throw them away half way around the course if not needed.
  • Experiement with different breakfasts. Everyone differs, but a cheese sandwich is high protein and more importantly high fat, there aren't many runners who that would sit well with before a marathon.
  • K L 11K L 11 ✭✭✭

    Interesting idea about raising the lactic threshold.

    For the second marathon I ate only a half of a cereal bar as breakfast, and had exactly the same problem, so I do not think the cheese sandwich is necessarily to blame.

    I was sort of hoping that someone might be able to clearly say, ok you did X wrong and this is what happened to your body and all of those symptoms (nausea, sloshing liquid, shivering) are clear indicators of Y and Z is how you avoid it.

  • You're going to be burning through several thousand calories during the race - you need a decent breakfast to supplement what you ate the day before else you'll simply run out of energy as you potentially haven't eaten anything significant for maybe 15 hours. You probably experienced the sloshing because you only had liquid in your stomach - no food. Sport drinks and gels are useful, but they are to be used as a supplement to what you've eaten, not the sole source of energy.

    You need to get used to eating and preparing properly, so during your training you should practice what you're going to do for the race. That means eating and drinking properly the day before, and on the morning before the race. You should then use the same nutrition strategy during the run as you propose to use in the race, using the same products that you'll be given during the race. That way when you get to your marathon there is nothing new on the day that can upset your system. The race is quite tough enough without asking your body to deal with something it's never seen before.

  • As others have said, you got your fuelling completely wrong.
  • K L 11K L 11 ✭✭✭

    It may well be the case but just saying "i got my fuelling wrong" does not add anything helpful.

    Well, what is a suggested fuelling strategy for someone with a delicate stomach? To give a little more information, here is my approximate marathon fuel for both races.

    I ate a pasta party dish approx 13 hours before each race.

    On the first marathon, I had some weetabix and a small cheese sandwich approx 3.5 hours before the race, and some snacks on the route. During this race I drank 1 gatorade bottle and a little water but probably did not drink enough. 

    On the second marathon I had a small cereal bar approx 3 hours before the race and two gels and part of a banana. During this race I drank 1 isostar bottle by 10km and drank half a cup of water at most water stops.

    Net result was the same nausea during both races, no doubt also due to the too fast first half pace.

  • K L 11 - a small ceral bar and a banana is just not enough, especially if you are eating them 3 hours before running. Your stomach will be basically empty and no wonder you have water sloshing inside of you.  The nausea could simply be because you are starving and your body is using up energy from glycogen stores rather than anything you have fed it.

    I can't advise you on exactly what to eat - I tend to have porridge or at oat-based cereal and a couple of slices of toast (no butter) about 2 hours before and a banana an hour before....but you need to experiment in your long runs and other races and find the right thing for you.

  • K L 11 wrote (see)

    Interesting idea about raising the lactic threshold.

    For the second marathon I ate only a half of a cereal bar as breakfast, and had exactly the same problem, so I do not think the cheese sandwich is necessarily to blame.

    I was sort of hoping that someone might be able to clearly say, ok you did X wrong and this is what happened to your body and all of those symptoms (nausea, sloshing liquid, shivering) are clear indicators of Y and Z is how you avoid it.

    You did X wrong: You are not a disciplined runner. You set off way too fast and blew up. As illustrated by your body running out of steam. Y. In order not to repeat this error you need to race slower. Your Z.

    I would imagine that your long slow runs are neither long or slow enough. Certainly not slow enough. You need to run slow - 50 - 60% V02 max. That is very slow, painfully slow for some runners. You need to put in the miles so it means time on your feet.

    If you are going to push your body beyond it's capabilities then refuelling does become an issue. However, having 'only' run 3 marathons, I have never eaten breakfast before a marathon and never refuelled during a marathon and only ever sipped water I have achieved my goals because I knew what I wanted and how I was going to get there and I stuck to my plan. If you are going to refuel then you need to know what, when and how to make best use of it. There is enough evidence to suggest that carefull refuelling will help you achieve your goals, careless refuelling will not do you any good at all.

  • K L 11K L 11 ✭✭✭

    So I guess there are no right answers. In two responses, two completely diametric approachs. One saying I need to eat much more, another saying he eats nothing at all.

    to ask a simple question: if a runner runs out of steam on a run, is nausea a common symptom?

    to ask another question: what would 60% VO2 max equate to in actual kmph, would you guess? I am not really familiar with this idea of running slowly, what benefit does it bring?

    To be honest, most of my long training runs (over 30km), running slowly by the end isnt much of a problem image  I did put in some miles though (or km as we like to say), I have run 2300km in the last couple of years, and also made my first triathlon.

  • You need to find your own fuelling strategy - trial and error.

    The evening-before-pasty-party thing is bollocks. If you've not been fuelling properly in the 7/10 days leading up to a race, the night before is too late.
  • Kevin- you got all the right answers... I don't think you're listeningimage.  Noone can tell you- if you eat X you will have a great marathon.  There are too many variables.  We're all different.  The main mistake you made was going off too fast way beyond what you were capable of.  No wonder your body refused to cooperate.  Everything else is just a result of that.  Get you pacing right and experiment with fuelling when training and you will get there.

    Is nausea a common symptom when you put your body under too much stress?  I would think so... It's happend to me before.  I've also had the shakes after pushing it too hard.  Not sure what the science is behind it... I simply acknowledged that my body was in shock and letting me know that I've taken things too far. 

    Good luck with your running.

  • Hmm, the fact that only 5% achieve should tell you something...MOST PEOPLE< even those with good strategy, GO OFF TOO FAST. Your fulelling is woefully inadequate. If you are going to push your body and not just get round, you've got to fill the tank. You wouldn't drive 400km on 20 litres of fuel and you wouldn't put diesel in a petrol engine. You must, must try and find out what works for you and stick to it.
    I've run over 30 marathons and I'm still experimenting. I have cereal/porridge, yoghurt, banana, pastry fruit juice and tea or coffeee around 2-2.5hrs before hand. I drink continuously until the start. On a marathon I adopt a 4 or 6 gel strategy and re-fuel before I need to at the 4 mile or 6 mile mark. If you feel drained or thirst it is too late. I drink around 330 mkls every 3miles/5km That works for me.
    Rather than analyse your training and look for faults, opick an established guide, the ones on here are actually good, and stick to it! Good luck and listen to the advice.

  • K L 11 wrote (see)

    Well, what is a suggested fuelling strategy for someone with a delicate stomach? To give a little more information, here is my approximate marathon fuel for both races.

    I suspect you only think you have a delicate stomach because you haven't practised your race fueling strategy, and you haven't fuelled properly, so when you take something during the race you aren't used to it, hence the dodgy stomach. If you practice eating/drinking whilst running and then prepare properly you'll probably be fine from that point of view.

    One thing you haven't mentioned is the training you did. How much running were you doing? How many long runs did you do, and what distance? If you didn't train enough then you'll have ended up having to push yourself much harder over the closing stages, and when you get really tired then all sorts of things can happen to your mind and body, with nausea probably being one of the lesser ones.

  • K L 11K L 11 ✭✭✭
    Mon77 wrote (see)

    Kevin- you got all the right answers... I don't think you're listeningimage.  Noone can tell you- if you eat X you will have a great marathon.  There are too many variables.  We're all different.  The main mistake you made was going off too fast way beyond what you were capable of.  No wonder your body refused to cooperate.  Everything else is just a result of that.  Get you pacing right and experiment with fuelling when training and you will get there.

    Is nausea a common symptom when you put your body under too much stress?  I would think so... It's happend to me before.  I've also had the shakes after pushing it too hard.  Not sure what the science is behind it... I simply acknowledged that my body was in shock and letting me know that I've taken things too far. 

    Good luck with your running.


    Hi Mon,

    Nope, I am definitely listening and I am open to all the advice on here. Thanks to everyone so far for the answers. Its interesting that your second paragraph you state your opinion about nausea and say that you had the same but do not know the science behind it. I think my question really is, what is the science behind it, and which of the things I did wrong contributed most to it?

    KL11

  • K L 11K L 11 ✭✭✭

    To respond to the others:

    Tinsel: I think you are very likely right that I go off too fast.... as I said in my original post I have my own ideas about what happened and this is my number 1 suspicion. However, Im no medical nor running guru and thats why I wanted to ask on here! Regards the fuelling, here I am not so sure what is right or wrong for me. I just suspect that I cannot eat much without getting sick.

    Beware of the fish: nice name, nice post, thanks a lot! First marathon I followed the beginner nikeplus marathon programme, the second marathon i followed the intermediate programme. both a little longer than 20 weeks, occasionally substituing another sport for a shorter run but doing all the long sunday runs pretty religiously, rain or snow. longest training run 35.5km, several others in the 30 range.

  • K L 11K L 11 ✭✭✭

    Another way to put it would also be to ask.... who else here has had similar experiences to me and could you solve them?

  • I have IBS and tried many unsuccessful ways to fuel for a marathon.

    In the end I found I couldn't stomach anything other than water/electrolytes during the race.

    What works for me is to eat well in the build up to the race.

    Couple of slices of toast and a few drinks on race morning.

    Water and electrolyte tablets during race. in 13 degree heat maybe 1-1.5 litres.

    I do my long runs straight out of bed on a Sunday morning so pretty much practice this each week.

     Works for me and no longer puke or poo during a race.

    Good luck

  • Basically, the slower you run (the same as running at a lower heart rate) the greater percentage of the energy you use comes from your fat stores (generally your intra-myocellular triglicerides)

    You have lots of this fat; even the really skinny whippets have plenty for a marathon.

    Even at really low heart rate, you're still burning some sugar, from glycogen stored in your muscles and liver.

    The faster you go, the greater percentage of glycogen you burn.

    You don't have enough glycogen to run a whole marathon, so you hit the wall and feel dreadful. At this point you slow down greatly and your body will burn anything it can find for fuel; muscle, fat, spare bits of your brain, anything.

    When you're running fast, your body shunts tyour blood supply to working muscle and away from your gut; this can give you vomiting or diarrhoea, but will definitely make it difficult for you to absorb more than 200kcal an hour (unless you're very lucky)...thus, during the race, you can't eat enough to replenish the glycogen you're burning if you're running fast.

     A classic sign of someone who hasn't trained their aerobic system well enough before the marathon is that they fly through the first half of the race, then are much slower in the second half. You went off too fast for the training that you'd done and burned all your glycogen. Yes, fuelling better would have given you more glycogen, but training smarter would've given you less need for glycogen in the first place.

    I bet you did your long runs too fast. Run more conservatively during your long runs; this will improve your ability to burn fat as fuel, which spares more of your glycogen, which means you'll finish the 42.2k at the same pace you started.

    HADD training linky.

  • K L 11K L 11 ✭✭✭
    Maxpower North West wrote (see)

    I have IBS and tried many unsuccessful ways to fuel for a marathon.

    In the end I found I couldn't stomach anything other than water/electrolytes during the race.

    What works for me is to eat well in the build up to the race.

    Couple of slices of toast and a few drinks on race morning.

    Water and electrolyte tablets during race. in 13 degree heat maybe 1-1.5 litres.

    I do my long runs straight out of bed on a Sunday morning so pretty much practice this each week.

     Works for me and no longer puke or poo during a race.

    Good luck


    That IS interesting as I also have also been told by a doctor some years ago that I have irritible bowel syndrome (at least back then). Can you tell us more about how this affected you? You also felt like vomiting during races then?

    Could you also explain a little more about how you eat more in the build up to the race?

  • KL - eating more in a run up to marathon isn't very difficult.  As you'll be tapering anyway just eat a normal balanced diet, increasing carbs, pasta, rice, potatoes and try to cut down on fat.  If you have dodgy gut anyway, fat isn't going to help with your digestion.  Avoid fatty foods on the day of the race too.

    The sloshing you experience can also be to taking your gels with water.  You need water to help you absorb them I'm told.  Energy drink doesn't work very well.  So water with the gels, energy drink between.

    In terms of pacing, have you considered using a heart rate monitor?  This helps to you train and race to effort rather than getting caught up in the excitement of a race or pushing on too fast through the boredom of the long runs.  I find it really helps and gives good structure to my training.

  • If I eat too much on race day then I will often end up finding a spot to do an explosive poo. In itself that doesn't take much time but I then usually feel a bit rubbish and slow down.

    I tried gels and tehy made me feel sick.

    I tried dried fruit, jelly babies, etc and they either mad me feel sick or go for a poo.

    If i drink water without the electrolytes then my stomach feels a bit sloshy and I will feel a bit sickly.

    I tend to eat a bit more in the week before. A couple more spuds or a bit more pasta. Not too much more as that leaves you feeling bloated.

    To be fair I do at least 6 x 20 mile runs with no eating before or during in the build up to a marathon, and these are run at a slow pace. I think you would get some results from doing plenty of long slow runs (listen to Mr Claypole aka Crash Hamster).

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