Five Fingers anyone?

Hi

Has anyone got or would they recommend the Vibram 5 finger Bikila running shoes?

Are they more comfortable than normal running shoes? Are there any benefits to them?

thanks

 Paul

Comments

  • I saw a pt at the gym this week in black barefoot shoes. I thought he was cross dressing and wearing court shoes at first glance.
  • Cougie, that's not inspiring me to get a pair! lol

  • Ian MIan M ✭✭✭
    I've got Speeds, which have the same sole unit as Bikilas, so I imagine they feel fairly similar underfoot.
    I like em. But like music, without knowing what you like, recommending anything is difficult.

    Are they more comfortable than normal running shoes?
    It depends on your definition of comfort really image

    Are there any benefits to them?
    Possibly, possibly not.

    Sorry to be vague, but sometimes there aren't simple answers to questions. http://birthdayshoes.com/ is quite a good place for reviews of them though.
  • Is Cougie's real name Lol?
  • The podiatry profession has noticed an increase in stress fractures inline with the increase in popularity of minimalist running. One brand seems to get mentioned a great deal.
    An example of such discussions can be seen on podiatry forums such as the one below.

    http://www.podiatry-arena.com/podiatry-forum/showthread.php?t=48566
  • I run in Bikila around 40km a week and being doing this for the past 6months now, and before that been doing most of my gym training in Bikilas as well, including climbing up Table Mountain in Vibram Sprints. So in short I am massive fan of these.

    I would recommend these, however at the same time I would recommned starting out very slowly. As somebody mentioned above 'Increase in stress fractures inline with the increase in popularity of minimalist running. One brand seems to get mentioned a great deal' Although this might be true, this is because a lot of people are buying minimal shoes without any proper advice, and think they can go out and run the same milage as in their normal trainers. There is a minimum adaption period of around 6 month to build up the strenght in your legs and for your legs to adapt  to this type of running style.

    Additionally, I keep in mind what your trying to achieve with them! Are you looking to use these for sprint training or for long distances. As this will change your training approach to them as well.

    Are they more comfortable? I personally think yes, but at the same time I know if I would be running 20km I still rather run in a pair of Newtons Distancias which are my long distance training shoe. But with training you can run marathons in Vibrams, but again, this has training has to be done at a steady pace over a number of months. 

    What are the benefits? I would never say that they will make you a faster runner, but in my opnion they will make you a stronger and more efficient runner. Since I have converted to running mostly in Vibrams and Newton Running Shoes, I have had no injury problems since then, and to be fair I have a number of injuries over the years before that.

     Final note of advice: As amazing as Minimal Running Shoes such as Vibram Fivefingers are, they are not for everybody. Go to a proper Running Store and let them advice you, but choose a running store that knows about minimal running shoes, and not just a running store which might have one or two models of minimal running shoes in there sortiment. I can recommend one in London if your require one.

  • Vibram FiveFingers were originally created and targeted towards yacht racers to maintain grip on slippery decks and nothing more, they were not designed as a running shoes and the suggested use of the product for this purpose was by the Vibram CEO by Ted McDonald, a runner who earned the nickname "barefoot Ted"
    Looking at things objectively, he had a lot to gain financially by the increased popularity of these shoes, and the suggestion made by so many people who use these types of shoes that they are now injury free has no foundation in science, the fact is as many people are getting injured wearing minimalist shoes.

    One of the most widely reknown barefoot athletes in the world Zola Budd who grew up running barefoot, raced barefoot now wears shoes and has done for a number of years due to injury.

    Daniel E. Lieberman who did some of the most widely misquoted research into barefoot and minimalist running, has now written in bold on his website that his research does not prove that shoes cause injury or that running in minimalist shoes reduce this.
    Some of the major producers of minimalist footwear such as merrell have started to place warnings in the boxes these types of shoes. Any product which requires a warning should encourage the consumer to seek the advise of a biometric professional.

    I would never advise someone to get advise from a running shop regarding running in minimalist shoes as I do not think a shop which sells Vibrams and in London or anywhere else for that matter will be objective. Specially in these difficult times.

    There is to many questions which remain unanswered at this time and research is needed.

    Interesting URL from one side of the debate, well worth a read
    http://www.runningbarefootisbad.com/
  • Minimal Running Shoes are nothing new, it is in a sense something old re-created. Before Nike put cushioning into shoes we all ran in plimsole style shoes.

    I m not saying that Vibram Fivefingers will result in you being injury free for the rest of your life, but since I swapped to a more minimal running shoe style, I have had no injuries. But this is just me, and I m not saying that this would work for everybody. But at the same time it is not proven either that Heel Striking shoes such as Asics, Brooks and various other models will stop you getting injured, neither has it been proven that you can injured either with them.

    Zola Budd now runs in Newton Running Shoes, which is very natural running shoe with an average of 4mm heel drop. 

    The reason why many manufacturers place warnings on there shoe boxes now, is simply because to many people are buying minimal shoes without taking into consideration that the body needs to adapt to this type of running and less/or no cushioning.

    I would argue that there are running shops that can give you the correct advice from an independent point of view with is objective. I know that although as much as I like natural running and running in Vibrams, at the same time I know that this type of running is not for everbody.

    Disclaimer: I work for a Running Store in London. We have a number of customers who are interested in running with more minimal shoes, and on numerous of times I have very clearly demonstrated that Vibrams or Saucony Hattori's are not the shoe for them due to various of reasons, and that something like a Kinvara would be a better option. It is hard to go from a heel striking cushioned shoe to minimal shoe, and often enough having a middle stage is much better.

    Subsequently I think we give very good advice, with us having a Vibram & Newton Runner, a Saucony Gridtype A4 &  VivoBarefoot Runner, a Brooks 7 & Saucony Cortana Runner, an ON-Running Shoe Runner as staff for example. This covers a wide range of shoes, and with us being an independent store we have a different approach to the chain stores, with us giving good independent advice, and with no brands being pushed towards a customer with all advice being given that is based upon the customers information after throughly questioning them. image

  • Ian MIan M ✭✭✭
    With regard to that URL -http://www.runningbarefootisbad.com/, I personally think the site is a bit of an embarrassment to the podiatry profession, and does nothing to further debate in a useful manner. It's run by the same guy who runs http://www.podiatry-arena.com/ (Craig Payne), but he tries to keep anonymous because he can't substantiate the claims on it. So we have someone who purports to be a professional, but is scared to engage in honest intellectual debate.

    Oh and he also runs an industry running shoe forum.
    http://running-shoe-rx.com/forum/

    But I'm sure this doesn't cloud his judgement..
  • Interesting thing to state Ian can you provide any evidence which supports this claim as the domain barfootrunningisbad.com is registered to someone who is not Craig Payne. The domain owner and registrant is not in the same location as Craig Payne either.
    The domain was not regestered with the same provider and does not use the same name servers for DNS management.
    hosting for the domain barefootrunningisbad.com is also not hosted with the same provider who hosts the domains owned and operated by podiatry portals, the company which is owned and operated by Craig Payne.
    Craig Payne is currently associated with 92 domains which are all publicly listed, why is this one different, why is this the only one which is registered by a different person, in a different location, using a different provider if your claims are correct.

    This is publicly available information available on whois lookups and domain records.

    Out of curiousity what staments on the website barefootrunningisbad.com do you feel need to be substantiated. Im not aware of any statement which suggests that shoes make you injury free, the website only questions the claims made by the barefoot community.
    I personally run in minimalist shoes at times, however I do not think it is for everyone and have even seen dangerous and life threatening information given by supporters of barefoot. Having seen how blinkered supporters can be in debates on podiatry forums, im really not surprised that the owner of the domain barefootrunningisbad.com does not permit comments as he simply wishes to present one side of the debate clearly, he also states why he does not permit comments or debate on the website itself.
    http://www.runningbarefootisbad.com/why-i-chose-to-remain-anonymous/238/

    Im not for one moment suggesting that the information on that site is correct, i do however think it is an interesting read from one side of the debate. To get a balanced opinion you need to see both sides of the debate. All we know at this time is you can get injured wearing minimalist shoes and traditional shoes and that more research needs to be done.

    As I have always stated, I am interested in this subject and both sides of the debate as such if you have any evidence which proves Craig Payne is behind barefootruningisbad.com I would love to be made aware of it.
  • Seems this topic is going off-topic.
  • In the interests of a debate based on evidence rather if it is desired I can provide details of the widely available information supporting the statements above, all you would need to do is request it and I would be happy to provide this.
    These of course would be document evidence rather than hear say from web forum or similar.
  • Im not sure its going off topic, both side of he debate have been presented which the OP would need to weigh up to make the correct choice as at this time there is no evidence for or against.

    A statement was made regarding a source of information which could assist in discrediting it if true, evidence disputing this claim was presented.. If truth comes out it is good for the OP
  • Not disagreeing with it, but I m just saying that getting into proving who is who in domain names is rather off-topic. The original topic was:

    Has anyone got or would they recommend the Vibram 5 finger Bikila running shoes?

    Are they more comfortable than normal running shoes? Are there any benefits to them?

    And I think he was asking what our own experiences are, as anti or for barefootrunning websites can be sometimes quite hard to understand. So it is always easier to have some people comment on their own experiences, plus I gave additional info as I come from a retailers perspective as well, one who runs in minimal shoes as well.

  • Ian MIan M ✭✭✭
    As I have always stated, I am interested in this subject and both sides of the debate as such if you have any evidence which proves Craig Payne is behind barefootruningisbad.com I would love to be made aware of it.

    Sorry for the delay in responding, been out running image
    inov-8 roclite 312-gtx before anyone asks image
    Pretty much only get used when it snows as the gortex keeps the toes nice and toasty.

    Yup, you won't find barefootruningisbad listed under the same places with whois as the others, as he doesn't want to be traced back to it. However, he also appears to use Google analytics. If you use google analytics you get a unique id code, and this id can also be used to see what websites someone is webmaster of.
    so if you look here for instance http://statsie.com/podiatry-arena.com, you can see all the websites that have the same google analytic user account.

    Thus all of the following have the same webmaster -

    site Google Analytics account
    clinicalbootcamp.net UA-191487-28
    goutonline.net UA-191487-22
    croydonfoot.com UA-191487-34
    foot-health-forum.com UA-191487-11
    forumdr.com UA-191487-32
    diabetic-foot.com.au UA-191487-12
    epodiatry.com UA-191487-21
    secret-squirrel.com UA-191487-6
    podiatric.blogspot.com UA-191487-4
    podiatryonline.tv UA-191487-29
    podiatry-uk.co.uk UA-191487-40
    running-shoe-rx.com UA-191487-2
    runningbarefootisbad.com UA-191487-45
    michaeljacksonwebsite.org UA-191487-46
    theforumfinder.org UA-191487-3
  • Squeakz wrote:

    "Out of curiousity what staments on the website barefootrunningisbad.com do you feel need to be substantiated"

    How about the name of the website for starters? If this isn't a claim then what is it? Podiatry forum discussions about injuries have no more validity than barefoot runners talking about how they cured their running issues by going barefoot/minimal. Where is the evidnce that shows, conclusively, that barefoot running is bad?
  • I don't want to pour fuel on this fire, but the fact that podiatrists are discounting the barefoot/minimal shoes that are available now does not surprise me. A lot of the problems podiatrists can help with can be sorted out by the change of gait that occurs when fully transitioned to barefoot shoes. I believe a substantial amount of salt is required when looking at minimal shoe advice from health professionals that make a living out of the foot problems that faulty gait patterns bring about.

    On the topic of VFF advice, I have a pair of the Classics and the KSO Treksport. I love them. The Classics have replaced my flip-flops when the weather's a bit sunnier. As far as running is concerned, I mainly use them for my sprints sessions (which pair I use depends on what the weather is like). As other people have said there is a transition period, which I would suggest you approach with caution. I'm lucky to have hills near me - you can't heel strike up hill! It took me about 2 years to fully change my gait when on long runs in "normal" trainers as well, and have now downgraded my massively heavy "pronation control" shoes to some nice lightweight trainers.
    Sorry I can't help you out with the Bikilas specifically, but I think the feel and experience of each VFF is very similar in general.
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