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MsE - Well done, that sounds like a very decent performance so early on in your training campaign and like others have said re the WAVA, it's not representative. When I said I wanted to be closer to 19 I meant a bit quicker, my best is 19;19 and yesterday's run probably equates to 18:5x for a flat 5k so about right for where I am now. I plan on doing more hill work and speed reps and that should hopefully help on that tricky section of the course. How's your ankle??
Minni - It really is great seeing new runners getting the bug.
OO - Nice 18 and nice late entry for your half. I love coffee and have a beautiful batch from Dominican Republic which a friend brought back recently, I'M not really a fan of tea except if I have a fry up.
Well done to all the XC runners!
I had to bin my planned 10 miler today as my left glute and hamstring felt a bit tender so I opted for an easy 4 miles @ 7:54mm instead.
Jools - you're dead right, it does have a bit although not as much as builder's tea and much less than coffee. Oddly both decaffeninated tea and coffee seem to have caffeine in them, although clearly not as much as the "proper" version. I've learnt something new today. Well done to you too on the medal haul.
Birch - congrats to both the offspring. Sounds like it'll be a family trip down the M1.
GM - hope the glute and hamstring are OK. Wise move to take it easy.
MSE sounds like a good race on a tough course so the wava will suffer and 80% wava is beyond a dream for most of us ! , 70m a week sounds plenty to me.
0054 cracking target and nice 18.
Lorenzo real talent in the family
CC2 good week 1
Gdawg nice week
Birch good start to a good year
Gerard sensible to bin it
been doing some stretches as my quads are tight as hell lately which could explain some of my knee problems and a very easy 6m this morn (average 9:04) which is a lot slower than usual ! Looks like the snow is coming midweek !
GM - good parkrun.
PMJ - well done with the pacing. Hope the taxi-driving went okay.
GD - strong long run.
OO - good time for a steady parkrun! And nice long run.
Speedy - sorry to hear life is still great, but well done on a very creditable performance in the XC.
Leslie - good first week of the year. 0 for me!
MsE - still a decent result. Onwards and upwards!
Lorenzo - congrats to Lorenzito!
Minni - sounds like you're having great fun with the running group.
Jools - nice bling.
Birch - good racing by the family!
Apologies for not reading any further back! Although I'm still not 100% I finally got my first run of the year in this morning. I had to do some early morning shopping, so thought it would be silly taking the car or walking... Only 5 miles, but it felt good!
Thanks all and yes, you are right in that I shouldn't compare WAVA scores on a hilly trail course. I feel a bit better about my performance after reading your comments.
OO - great start to the campaign for you. I have yet to go further than 16 so you've made a grand start into the LRs.
Lorenzo - (1) Well done to Lorenzo Jr who looked mighty chuffed with himself on FB. (2) Green tea does have caffeine but is less potent which is why I drink gallons of it and did while pregnant. (3) which Hokas?
Minni - so nice to see others "get" running! MrE s starting to work out what all the fuss is about but treading that line between the act and ending up with niggles.
Well done on great volume weeks, Speedy and GDawg.
Congrats on the silverware, Jools! And you must be so proud Birch.
Gerard - the ankle is OK but was letting me know it isn't reliable racing on trails yesterday. I just can't assume it will hold and suspect I will need surgery one day. Thanks for asking.
Hope your niggle isn't anything sinister. 
I have signed up for a yoga class and TRX class this week, Leslie. With mileage (and advancing age!) must come stretching, strength and conditioning!
Sending more get well vibes to Gul.
Will head out for an easy hour soon. Happy Mondays all.
Edited to say: Lorenzo, I can't join you in your HM sadly as my marathon comes in early April. I have entered Milton Keynes which falls a little earlier in March however if you fancy another option...!
Jools, that South West thing is odd. Miss Jones #1 used to sprint and was based in Exeter and would do the South West champs at the Birmingham Indoor Arena and competitors came from as far away as Cornwall.
Taxi trip went well, 9:30 left home and Loughborough by 11:00. Sainsburys were booked for 12 noon but came at 11:15 so left Loughborough by 12 noon after lunch and Cambridge at 1:30, cup of tea and a slice of cake and away again at 2 and home by 3:30.
Need to try and sort out XC this weekend. I run for two clubs and second claim race on Saturday and first claim on Sunday. I will definitely make the scoring team for the second claim and the race is closer and I can do a LSR on Sunday, but first claim need a couple of vets in the scoring team but it is further away and I will miss the Sunday LSR ...
MsE - you asked recently for views re first marathon. If I may, could I ask how you prepared for your first marathon? I ask as my daughter is making her debut at Manchester (She will be 25 by then). Of course I'm advising/guiding, but a separate perspective would be welcome (esp as my debut was pretty grim) - particularly on mental preparation for the debut.
She's in good form currently with PB at 10K & half mara in November, and she encouragingly reported "feeling strong" in last 3 or 4 miles of a solo 19.6 (furthest she's run) on New Year's Eve, but as the day draws nearer, the "unknown territory" factor will cause doubts to surface, I'm sure.
PMJ is correct in that the goal has to be defined - the goal currently is sub 3:45 to qualify for VLM; this would be a very soft target for an experienced runner with her other distance PBs - conversely a goal more in line with these may be unwise on debut?
All views welcome, but I AM interested in the female angle (Speedy, Jools)?
Many thanks.
Hello Birch, I ran my first marathon aged 30 and trained by doing the P&D 18-week 55-70 miles/week plan (having previously build up from doing 35-ish miles per week to 50ish to prepare). Having been running for a few years, raced several halves and run plenty of miles in the build-up I didn't have any particular issues doing the marathon itself and I don't think there's any point mystifying it. I did run slightly faster than I was planning in the race (was aiming for 3:10 to 3:15), but I also held back a bit after mile 14 as I'd heard lots of horror stories about what would happen after mile 20 but it was fine. I'd run a 1:28 half in March and managed a 3:06 marathon.
You clearly bossed the marathon discipline right from the off literatin.
I did my first two marathons in 1993 and 1994. Didn't have a clue what I was doing and stumbled round in 4.45.
12 years later I did London 2006. I followed a plan of sorts and managed 3.47. I have to tell you that I can vouch for the 20 mile horror story thing. I started to wobble around 16 miles, recovered a bit, wobbled at 18 and then smashed horrifically into the wall at 20 miles. I was confused, disorientated, sobbing (yes, sobbing!
) and my legs had never felt pain like it. I vowed never to do a marathon again but did return in 2009. This time I trained specifically for the final 6.2 miles and it worked (3.25).
Doing Brighton in 2014 and 2015 I can also confirm the absolute carnage that happens along the road to hell section where there is barely a spectator but the road is littered with mere husks of runners whose PBs have been shattered and left in tatters on that lonely road where the mile markers state 21 done, ONLY 5 to go!
I, however was fine and smashed it both times!!
So yeah, the 20 mile wall is real but with the right training can certainly be avoided.
GD
Birch: I think it will depend on how many years she has been running for, in particular half marathons, as she won't be making quite such a big adjustment if she is fairly seasoned at the half. It will also depend on her mileage. I was woefully under-trained for my first marathon (probably peaked at 40 mpw) and ran 3.29 when my half time was 1.32 and so I should have been closer to 3.15 than 3.30! That was 2004 and I then wound up injured, so didn't run a marathon again until 2006...
So much posting going on, and medalling/podiuming, which is even better.
MsE the Tadworth 10 is pretty hard isn' it. However one has to try hard there as there is probably a glue factory near the racecourse for nags which have become old and slow.
Advice for 1st marathon: DON'T do it in the height of summer, when it's 27 degrees, and DO try to average a bit more than 15mpw in the build-up. I vowed never again but didn't stick to that.
OO I think you misheard the doc, she said drink MORE beer not less.
Too busy here to run much, but got out on the new bike today and felt v nervous at junctions and when seeing idiot drivers on the phone or generally not being observant. Got back in one piece and the new beast seems both more responsive and more comfortable than the dead one. Now the sweaty treadie beckons, which is OK cos it looks like snow this weekend!
I'm back in Geneva today which was a nasty shock with a 5am taxi. Too tired to run tonight. But plenty of time for beer thanks Lorenzo.
Glad you are back in the saddle Gul and feeling better.
My first marathon was done following the Runner's World sub 3.30 plan. I can't remember what my half PB was before the marathon training but I think I ran 1.36 in the build up. I ran 3.28 on the day, having stuck rigidly to my pacing schedule. More experienced runners at the club said I should be more conservative and aim for 3.45, but I didn't see the point of just getting round and wanted to run as fast as I possibly could.
I was 38, and a City career and 4 children down when I ran my first marathon in 3:27 (1:30 HM) so I think your daughter will be approaching it in a much fresher state! The fact she has run several races and can attest to feeling strong towards the end of long runs seem a like good sign that she will go the full distance comfortably. As you say, it is an unknown for us all the first time and it is unclear who converts well to the full marathon distance according to the calculators. I am using McMillan schedules at the moment and he likes to judge how well someone is ready by three factors: Yasso 800s, faster finish LRs and HM times. You can see how this works in terms of pacing and speed endurance. If she can pace correctly, finish her long runs strong (he suggests faster than MRP finishes) as well as hit those MRP miles on LRs then this suggests she is going to convert well. I would add that as a female, it is worth working on strength work that addresses the niggles that are commonly suffered by females due to our anatomy, e.g. glute strengtheners and hip openers to avoid IT issues which are more likely with our wider hips. In fact most newbies really suffer with form in the latter stages (I know my form was shocking and, since I took a year out for study, is shocking once more
) which is where strength work really helps.
PMJ - decisions, decisions...
Birch - sorry, I think you'd better listen to other people's advice when it comes to setting marathon targets!
Poacher - glad you're back in the saddle. You don't fancy a run in the snow, then?
7 miles this morning including 15 x 0.2M efforts off 0.2M recoveries. Only 1 mile warm-up, so took the first few reps steady (1:20 = 6:40) and gradually progressed to finish with a few reps @ 1:11 ( = 5:55 m/m) - still not 100% so sweating quite a bit by the end!
MSE strength and stretching advice noted ,have started doing a bit now out of necessity
PMJ busy with the family taxi service
Poacher glad you are back in the saddle again
Gul nice reps welcome back.
12m this morn
3 steady around 7:30, then 5 at 6:50 them 3 all out 6:12, 6:16 and a 6:02 then 1 hard 7:04 to finish .
12m at 6:52 average which is a nice number
and yes I did try to nail a 6:00m /mile for the last fast one but just couldn't make it happen 
Many thanks for the replies –
Lit – “didn't have any particular issues doing the marathon itself and I don't think there's any point mystifying it” – really good point, I needed reminding !
Jools – “depend on how many years she has been running for, in particular half marathons” – well, she’s been running since age 8, schools & club XC etc, has now done 5 half maras , latest 1:34 on a fairly hilly course, prob on around 40 mpw currently
Speedy – “I ran 1.36 in the build up. I ran 3.28 on the day” - so 3:30 could be better target than 3:45 off a 1:34 half . . .
MsE - “can attest to feeling strong towards the end of long runs seem a like good sign that she will go the full distance comfortably” - hopefully this will be the case; good suggestion re strength work – her cousin ran her debut mara last year and found this beneficial
So, thanks again – I’ll pass your comments on – I’m sure my daughter will take encouragement !
9 miles this morn, wit 4 x half mile, 1 x mile in the middle. First "quicker" running for a while after just plodding over the festive period - felt hard . . .
More to the point Birch, seeing a young person so well brung up that they want to be fit and healthy and sporty is not something every parent achieves, so I'm guessing you're secretly a rather proud dad. And rightly so.
FWIW for a good debut mara I'd learn learn to dissociate, without getting all NLP it just means relaxing into a rhythm & accurately paced autopilot until quite late in the race, then using the saved mental energy to focus on the difficult last few miles. Things like mile reps help the mind and body "store" precision pacing which can be used almost subconsciously on race day. The mind should still be pretty fresh after 16-18m before cutting into pain and pace management mode. Does this make sense? There are few things more tiring and stressful that micro-pacing from the start with eyes glued to the GPS.
20m on the bike without falling off - hoo-yaa!
Hi all. First time thread poster. (I hung about in the Sub 3:30 Gingermagic thread last year).
Not sure i can help on debut marathons as mine was pretty terrible (4:37 off a 1:42 HM). To be honest despite a sporty background i had little running experience - maybe that's the clue don't rush into it.
Anyway training for London and hoping I can justify posting in a sub 3:15 thread!
Currently feel it's a reasonable aim (or is it?). In December I trimmed my 10k PB down to 41:01 (despite setting off far too quick) and surprised myself by going sub 20 for the 1st time at parkrun last weekend on a lumpy (by London standards) course.
Anyway hoping to give something back alongside getting some inspiration and nuggets of info from here in the quest to crack 3:15.
Welcome RN. 41 min 10k is a very positive predictor for 3.15. Do hang around (mind you there are some right nutters on this thread
).
RichN - Welcome on board. Sounds like you are making very good progress. 41:01 for 10k is good running! What sort of mileage are you doing? Are you following a specific plan?
Leslie - That's a corker of a 12 miler!
Gul - Glad to see you back to it.
Poacher - Must have been good to be back out on the bike after your accident.
Interesting reading about all the debut marathons by various thread runners and most have made impressive improvements. My debut was 3:29 off a 1;30 half and haven't improved much since.
Last minute entry to a 5k tonight. Wasn't sure if I should do it or not and ran 19:05. Started off much more conservatively this time and through mile 1 in 6:08, felt good at halfway and tried to push on but had bad stomach cramps and every time I tried to force the pace it hurt, so had to settle for a steady pace for the last 2k. 6:09mm average pace and will put it down as a decent mid week speed session.
MsE - I've got the Cliftons. I don't run in them very often as I find them a bit clumpy for speedwork and as a result I've ended up sticking with my Mizunos. That said, I used the Cliftons for the Race the Wall and they were very comfortable, hence the plan to use them again. Don't think I'll be able to make the MK Half I'm afraid.
PMJ - good bit of chauffeuring there. Your kids are clearly luckier than elder Lorenzito who'll be given a lift down to the station if he's lucky!!
Glad you're already back on the bike Poacher - which model did you get?
Birch - not sure I can really add anything to all the wisdom about first marathon, other than the obvious thing about not getting carried away at the start. I ran 3:34 off a 1:38 half (and proved the point about what happens if you do get carried away in the first few miles) so I'd have thought 3:30 off a 1:34 is eminently achievable, especially if she's sensible.
Another crackerjack of a run from you there Leslie - you're on fire.
Also great going in an impromptu 5K by GM - sounds like you manage to keep up a decent pace despite the stomach cramps.
Hope you can shake off the lurgy soon Gul.
Welcome Rich - how long ago was your 4:37? A sub-20 5K and 41 min 10K sounds as though you're in the right place on here. What's your endurance like?
Intervals for me on Monday with mile cutdown: 1 mile, 0.75, 0.5, 0.25, 0.125 with 60s recoveries off a 1 mile w/u before heading into town to take my chances with the trains. Surprisingly I had a relatively straightforward journey in, but only because I "found" a train on the platform at Clapham Junction that was on the indicator board, but was going in the right direction. Definitely luckier than most.
I was then living it up by the seaside last night, continuing my on-going tour of the country's hotspots with an overnight stay in Southport and went out for an early morning 5 miler on the dunes. All in all very pleasant.
Leslie - that's a very fast block of 3 miles there!
Birch - good 9 miler.
Poacher - good advice - I'll learn to heed it one day.
RichN - welcome. Sub 3:15 is a possibility.
GM - nice pacing there. Shame about the stomach cramps, but good result.
Lorenzo - couple of nice sessions. Glad you managed to find a train!
6 mile recovery run this morning.
RichN, welcome to the thread. I see on the 3:30 thread you did Manchester last year in 3:30 (does what it says on the tin) so this year you are looking for a 15 minute improvement, or you want to beat yourself by a couple of miles.
Your 5k and 10k times are definitely fast enough to get you round in 3:15 so the real question is what are you planning to change at longer distances to get that 15 minutes? You have the speed, what about speed endurance?
My first mara ( which is still a pb ! ) was 3;27 of a 1:32 half .
Birch good to see a bit of speed.
RichN generally more miles equals better times ,welcome.
A good few on here are trying to run 3 hrs so bear that in mind when you see the crazy looking training paces ,you are still in the best place for a 3:15 .It starts getting more tricky to improve after 3:30 and you need to do runs for a purpose more of the time.How many miles are you doing now ?
Gerard you will be sub 19 soon by the look of it well done.
Lorenzo nice for some in sunny southport
6 recovery ones this morn ,getting a bit windy out there ..
Thanks for the welcome all.
4:37 was in 2014. I should of DNF. My knee, (which i injured during my final long run and nursed through taper), went at 14ish miles. I jog/hobbled home because it was London and my 1st marathon. Couldn't run for weeks after.
2nd marathon was at Manchester last year. Ran 3:30 off a 1:34 half. I was happy with the big PB improvement, especially as a lingering bout of flu in March meant I only managed one 20 miler in training. I was definitely undercooked endurance wise. Ran a good even pace till about 23 miles when I started cramping up.
This year I'm following the same RW Asics sub 3:30 plan that served me well last year until flu struck. I've just tweaked it with some extra miles and increased paces. It peaks about 55 mpw and currently at 40 mpw (i didn't get much beyond 45 mpw last marathon cycle)
I ran 25-30 mpw for about 10 weeks pre plan, following a summer of plenty of cycling so feel like I'm starting with my best aerobic base so far.
So to answer your question PMJ - i'm hoping the speed endurance will come from the better base, actually getting my LR's done (with more MP miles in them), and hopefully getting to the start line injury free (being more diligent on core and strength work, with the odd sports massage chucked in) and illness free (flu jab already done). Not asking for a lot!
Leslie - thanks for the heads up. Some of the impressive runs people are logging are definitely out of my reach!
RichN, a lot of people at this standard look to try and get a conversion from half to full of double plus 10 minutes. From your 1:34 half, that comes out at 3:18 so the 3:30 does show potential for a better run and getting the long runs in make sense and if you get them in, it should work out.
Hi RichN, welcome to the group. It is such a nice group that I have never felt the need to leave it and continue to get good advice despite having run a bit quicker than sub-3:15
Gerard - your limited running is doing your short speed pace some good it seems.
Nice reps in your 7 miler, Gul.
Awesome 12 mile pace, Leslie. I really struggle to run fast in training.
Birch - I second what Poacher said, you must be so proud of your daughter.
Am pleased to see Poacher back on the bike .
Enforced rest today brought forwards a day. Yesterday I went to a TRX class except a different teacher was subbing and her speciality is HIIT. I tend to avoid this sort of training as it doesn't benefit the run training at all for me. I like specific targeted strength and conditioning work. Anyway, lo and behold, I can barely move today my glutes are so sore!
After class I managed a very sedate 10 miles at 8:36/mi pace with the dog. Hills tomorrow, if I can lift my knees by then that is...
Just watched the Mo Farah DVD which was given to me for Christmas. A great reminder in there that the extra gains from strength work are so worthwhile. For Mo, it was just a 2-3% change but that made all the difference in turning him into a multiple Olympic champion.
Poacher - great news on the bike comeback!
GM - well done on the speedy 5k. That's good pace.
MsE - well done on the x-training/running combo! Can imagine you're a little sore.
Welcome to RichN. My one and only mara to date was also London 2014, which ended up at 3:27 off a 1:30 HM PB. Reckon I could have run quicker on the day if I'd known what I was doing a bit more (3 minute negative split). Running my 2nd mara in Brighton on April 9th, so well into the 18 week programme now. Theoretically 3:15 is possible for me too, but this time round, I'll be delighted with 3:20. Small improvements...
Speaking of which, after a couple of rest days (juggled schedule due to work & life reasons), it was back to it today with 8 miles steady as part of a cut back week. Surprised myself with an average pace of 7:28 and finished in just under an hour.
Be careful out there tomorrow folks if the forecast weather materialises...
An excellent article here on how to run faster at all levels (summary: slow down and be consistent!) http://www.letsrun.com/news/2006/09/wejo-speaks-why-i-sucked-in-college/