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Moraghan Training - Stevie G
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Dean, great to see you back, and congratulations on the team bronze! I daresay that, had I not run the ICs and then examined the results, I might have fancied my chances of top 110. Shows what I know.... Sounds like a bit of a shocker with the slow reps, but glad to hear you've averted the issues. Could have just been something underlying of course. Is the plan track focus again this year?
CC82, well done on a big PB. Yes, maybe not quite what you were after, but it means that there is more to take off for next time. A PB is always good, never mind the circumstances.
Hip feels marginally better every day. Not going to be running on it yet, but at least there's progress, or so it appears. Physio tomorrow may tell me otherwise of course.
Took the day off to watch my oldest run for his school in a Reading area XC competition. I'm afraid he is just as harsh on himself as I am on myself. He came almost exactly in the middle and second for his school, and then was in tears because he wasn't further forward. Trying to remind him that all the kids in the race had been selected by their schools and it was therefore a good standard fell on deaf ears.
Thought it would be a couple of laps of a football pitch or something, but it was quite a good course actually - big downhill then big uphill, bit of mud. Quite fancied a crack at it myself.
Nice one CC82. pb is always good. I've a HM lined up for Easter Monday, not sure what I was drinking to make that decision.
Dachs, my lad was in a similar position himself once. First or second in his school, first or second in lesser club events, halfway down the field in higher level club events, and damn near last in the events where ambitious adults deem winning as a starting point for a young runner worth noticing.
At the club I medaled at on Sunday. The attitude of the kids coaching is based on age plus plus plus ability to match that age with their projections of what age groups should, nay, must be doing.
Basically, if the kid isn't approaching 2 minutes for 800m and/ or 4 minutes for 1500m by the age of 16, then forget it.
When most kids can't get near five minutes or even six minutes for a 1500m despite training, is it any wonder they give up. It's hard work enough without being labelled rubbish.
It's just a weeding out process.
Unfortunately, the method of weeding out is often a form of scorched earth, which means that instead of good runners competing, they get no runners appearing.
🙂
SG - the minutes based training comes directly from Johnas. However, there was no science in the 27 minutes - I just went out and ran a recovery loop of where I was staying in Inverness and it took me 27 minutes. There was no specific plan for that run and if there was it probably would have been either 20 minutes or 30 minutes or 20-30 mins...
Good session there Dean!
Hopefully the hip sorts itself out soon enough Dachs.
I did progressive session on the track this morning to get the legs ticking over for upcoming 10k race on Sunday without smashing myself given it's 3 days since an HM PB. 1600/1200/1000/800/400/200 roughly targeting HMP/Threshold/10k/5k/3k/1mile paces (target paces rather than PB paces) (6:12-13/4:35-36/3:40/2:48/1:19/0:36). Off 2 minute recoveries. Came out at:
1600 = 6:09.5
1200 = 4:32.2
1000 = 3:39.3
800 = 2:48.3
400 = 1:18.2
200 = 35.8
Legs still a bit tired, but that was all relatively comfortable, so hopefully get a bash at sub 37 at the weekend. Rest day tomorrow and recovery / easy running Friday/Saturday.
Ric - I've zero background in youth running at all. I played football until I was 30. I didn't see any real opportunities locally to get into athletics up my way (not that I really gave it much thought) - nothing at school. I did get asked to go along to Fraserburgh RC when I was 15 after entering and coming second in a local mile race but that would have meant giving up playing for 1 of the 3 football teams I played for at the time... (And I would have struggled to get over to Fraserburgh for the training nights etc.)
I've seen first hand (as a kid and as an adult (being a coach for a couple of years) of kids being put off football for many reasons. Number 1 reason is dickhead coaches/parents who can't control their competitive urges and live them through the kids' football which should only ever be about fun in my view. The selection process seems to be fine at primary school age (where I coached) with varying degrees of inclusion depending on the school but clubs are only interested in winning which I do understand but also find quite sad. Secondary school football selection process is brutal though. I remember going through the same thing in my first week or two of the "big school" and I got picked for the first team so thought nothing more of it but I was speaking to a parent of a kid I used to coach who doesn't possess much natural ability but loves playing football for a laugh. He didn't get picked and that's it. Zero opportunity to play football at school at all because he wasn't deemed good enough. I fail to see how that encourages kids to play sport! I know plenty of guys who weren't very good at football in their teens but went on to be decent amateur players as adults.
Luckily the lad found that the school rugby club is much more inclusive and now loves playing rugby.
No idea if they have any sort of offering for athletics now (this is the same school I attended where as a boy you could play football and/or rugby, nothing else).
CC82,
My lad overheard a couple of guys from my club complaining about how they didn't want just any runner joining the club, just the fast one's.
But what is a fast one? distance running is ten years of improvement after you've stopped growing.
The problem is by picking someone at a very young age, the danger is of putting all your money on a kid who happens to be a very early developer. Hell! I saw a kid in an under 15's race and he looked like an adult of 25.
If our country had a system that wasn't based on instant natural born talent there would be a lot more decent performers than there are, or were.
When I was at school, as a runner I'd be about 10th from around 40 runners in a XC. Some of those kids could take a minute a mile out of me. But not now. Even jogging I reckon I could beat any of them. They don't feature on PO10 so I'm making a calculated guess.
I was definitely sub standard as far as talent was concerned but I worked at it when the others (I assume) all gave up. The fact I ended up running a sub 74 minute HM makes me wonder about the one's who left me for dead.
The sad thing is they gave up because at another level they were deemed to be no good either. That's the down side of an elitist system.
🙂
It sadly happens at all levels - right to the top.
Brendan Foster's commentary of Mo Farah's "failed" marathon being a pretty good example. Mo Farah debuted a 2:08 marathon whilst really just testing the water to see if he should have a bash at marathon glory in Rio 2016 or focus on track. I reckon on another day Farah would have ran slightly quicker had he not got his tactics a bit out and landed running solo for the second half of the race, but without taking that into account, he ran a 2:08 and was deemed a "failure"!!!
Point being that in some people's eyes, being the absolute best is the only way to be good. I'd be surprised if Farah isn't knocking on the door of 2:04/2:03 (or better??) if he goes down that route in the next few years.
The other point is that Brendan Foster is a bit of a knob.
Back to old stylee bus today! No time for lunch run, so dashed out after work. 10k total in 38:57, with the main bit being 2 x 2M off 2 min rec. On the old cycle route, so odds slightly up and evens slightly down. Last mile was into a wind, so to try and keep pace I pushed too hard and finished with a fairly spectacular bit of retching over the last 50m followed by a full on vomit when stopped. Last thing I'd eaten was red grapes and a chocolate biscuit, so it wasn't pleasant
. Messed up my last mile pace too! 5:59, 5:45, 5:57, 5:56
sounds a very nice session Bus, too nice like you say with that finish!
Did my first midweek long for about 6 weeks, so easy to cut it out, but standard sub 7 10miler. Just adding the blocks back one by one, light MP check, midweek long check.
Hopefully there's a reward down the line somewhere for all this maitenance.
ps sub 2 for 800 as a minimum! whoa. That's a ferocious speed. Thank goodness some of us didn't start on the track. I expect a few years of that easily sees most people off the sport for good!
ric - i dont think most clubs start out to "rank" kids against time and potential but league track races are not the same as a road race/XC. League track meets normally only have 2 entries for an 800 or 1500m. so you would naturally only put in the fastest kids so some lads would never get to compete. whereas roads or XC you can put everyone in so is more inclusive. So the lads who dont ever get picked to race in the league will feel like second class and drift away from the sport.
SG - one of the lads i training with is aiming at english schools 800m finals and is looking at 1.52ish.
Depends on the club to some extent. My club as a junior was an AC, but very inclusive of all standards. However, my understanding is that the AC my Luke is on the waiting list for are pretty focused on the fast end, and if you get to a certain age without hitting fast times you won't be given too much encouragement to continue.
Re football, some kids' sports just seem to engender certain attitudes. Competitiveness seems to be bred into football, and those who aren't good at it are made to feel pretty unwelcome not necessarily by the coaches but by some of the other kids. On the other hand, both of mine play rugby, and the whole atmosphere is much more welcoming, and the games are about developing them as players not necessarily winning the games themselves.
Good to see you mullering yourself Bus-man.
Physio this morning. His main concern is a stress fracture at the top of the hip. He reckons it's very unlikely, but needs to rule it out before he can start to get me back towards running. Unfortunately, that means going into the NHS system to get an X-Ray. First step is getting a GP appointment to get a referral, but at my surgery that means sitting on the phone for an hour at 8 am every morning hoping you strike it lucky. Which I didn't today.
Not hopeful of running London. I daresay I can get to the start line injury-free, but it's the 2-plus weeks training I will have lost that is the killer.
Lunchtime run for the first time in a t-shirt and not long-top and gloves. Not quite SG bare-chest style but definitely a step towards summer.
Dean, my lad was born in August which meant due to the school age system being linked to athletics, he was forced to compete in the U15's age group even though he never turned 13 until after the final event of the entire track season.
He never stood a chance against kids who were nearly two years older.
No prizes for guessing who my lad is.
It's one of the ironies of running that the less able runners are only able to compete once they become a senior. By which time they have invariably packed it in.
Dachs, that injury sounds like one my originals which was a bust hip bursa.
The way it was diagnosed was to lean away from the pain; which sort of relieved it, but on easing off the stretch, the pain returned.
It hurt for weeks. Went to the doctor who said 'take these' and two days later the pain was gone.
I've been suspicious of anti-inflammatories ever since.
🙂
That's a bugger Dachs. Almost certainly isn't a stress fracture, but the wait for an x-ray could well scupper things, if you don't nag and nag again....
Did the physio mention possible bursitis? Mine didn't burst like Ric's, but came on sharply in a similar way to your description in a race. Much better option than a stress fracture!!
Nice 10 SG! 8 off-road, hilly at lunch for me. Ground was much firmer nd the sunshine pleasant, so a better pace than late. Legs felt a bit tired though and guts were not quite fully recovered from yesterdays session!
I won't be calling him a runt this time Ric
But hang on, so a 12 year old has to race in the U15s? Presumably he has another 2 years in that category though, so will have his chance at being a bully to the younger ones later on?
Dachs, I thought you'd have had Bupa or something, maybe I'm getting you mixed up with some of the corporate suits on this thread. Of which I'm not one, or I'd have probably not taken 8months to get my 10 or so tests in.
Hope it's not a stress fracture obviously, and I suspect the pain would be outrageous. Remembering back to a certain young girlie who used to post on RW, who repeatedly got them (though in her feet), i was sure I remembered people saying they don't actually show on x rays. Checked it on google, and that seemed to back it up. Maybe it's at a certain stage they come out, so maybe the wait would at least allow for that to come out.Not what you want to hear. And you certainly don't wanna be doing a marathon with any doubt. Sounds a literal world of pain.
ps Ric, what are you saying, most of us on here are able to compete cos we were so crap and average at track stuff?
I'll let you know i once won the Winchcombe 4.7miler you know.
Got a goblet and ting.
(although the tight twats insisted I sent it back a year later)
Not at all SG. It's by the time we are seniors, anyone and everyone turns up whether or not they can even run at all.
Relatively speaking in most races we (this thread) are the elite, the front runners, the winners of plaques and things, and if we're talking parkruns, gods.
🙂
Hang in there Dachs, and I hope it resolves itself quicksmart. Failing that you could find one of those private hospitals and cough up
A proper Bus session that one. Like PMJ I had a t-shirt session at 0630 this morning. Shorts too but still gloves. 20min at HM pace in readiness for Sunday.
Daughter had a trial with local AC. They sent them all off on a warmup lap of the track; everyone else went off like the clappers but daughter follows here old man and bimbled round for 200m, realised she was last and burst in to tears and asked to go home. The atmosphere seemed pretty unsupportive.
As tri is still a young sport we try to be very very inclusive in our coaching. There is a model (LTAD for those that care) in terms of what ages that certain activities become appropriate e.g. (doing for fun, doing to learn, doing to train, training to compete, competing to win) that all coaches are supposed to acknowledge. We're always on the look out for the next olympian but also there to ensure that everyone enjoys what we do or at least gets something out of a session.
I think we're all damned lucky to be able to get out there and just run.
That's more like it Ric
In a couple of months I hope to be bending Pete's ear, and hearing what are the crappest standard parkruns in the local 50miles, and I'll be turning up, beating 23 people and winning one in 23mins. Then just cruise around after nodding and waving.
Add in toilets where the light doesn't work, so you are literally crapping in the dark, stupid start times, and being chided about all manner of stuff, and that is basically the track experience I find Iron.
That and worryingly serious looking kids with 6 packs with all the gear on
Did they ever put a new bulb in the only cubicle in the Marlow Cricket Club men's ?
Dachs, great report, you finished just in front of a Bucks Leighton Buzzzard resident I know. He's going well so that's a decent result. Annoying injury, but agree that it could be worse. At LBAC in the last 10 years there's been one cancer death, one burst aorta death and current members having cancer treatment and heart surgery. Puts these niggles into perspective. My IT band knee issues getting there I think. Ran 4.5 miles with the knee being OK but a few aches elsewhere. We'll see how it pans out, Cardiff sat week!!
Football wil always engender more cockiness as its so popular and 'general public'
Crikey!
And to think a few days ago I suggested to my club secretary I might not run in the 12 stage on Sunday if the temperatures are in single figures.
Of course I changed my mind...
But it still didn't stop him forwarding this information to the rest of the team.
Mind you, he was having a laugh as he listed all the other pathetic reasons and excuses anyone was using as a means of not racing their guts out, which they know they will do once they toe the line.
As for footy. Lets face it, the public love the athleticism and excitement of football, and any match is interesting. However, try doing an overhead kick at the start of a race and see how excited people get.
🙂
The missus is a team manager for Beds. Tell you what they have got the patience of saints. I'd be telling a few home truths to those who cry off a couple of days before a race with a magical niggle.
My attitude would be - within 4/5 days before and you're running mate. Unless you are properly sick or you've broken your leg.
Football..Bournemouth have been doing well since I've been injured. Is it not too much to ask for the big man up there to allow my two joys in life to go well at the same time?
Get up to York. Laura WEIGHTMAN came second in 16:12: surely you can beat a girl
Bevendean Down has the slowest course record, 19:14. Up the backend of Brighton (and not the rearend, that is a different part of Brighton).
good to hear the injury is going to be better for Cardiff Simon
van gaal has ruined football for me this yr. sooner he is replaced the better.
i have to do a parkrun soon...my 18.09 should be a soft PB to hit
last night was 3*5*200 off 60 secs and 3mins between the sets. was suprising cold when the sun went down. averaged 29s.. is ok for this time of yr & at least felt like speed work compared to the last few weeks where it felt like i was running through water
As for the cold air and it's effects. This morning I decided to replicate my preparation for the relay.
1. Warm up. Did what I didn't do on Sunday which was run properly for the best part of two miles. HR indicated a top end of 140 bpm. That info which I hadn't had to hand on Sunday would have been the highest it went prior to the race. Way way too low.
2. Strides with appropriate kit. Covered sections of up to 150 yards at a time. HR hit about 160 bpm. Seemed ok. I thought.
3. Set off at what would have been the start of the relay leg at the speed I would have run at. Felt lungs going after a minute followed by legs and everything else too. Blew up and discovered I'd only gone 400m at 5:53 mile pace. HR 165 bpm. Crap!
4. Have another go, but intentionally slower. Went a bit further, still uncomfortable, average pace 6:06. Still crap. Still cold as anything. HR 173 bpm.
5. Finally just one go but taking it easy, hoping for maybe 6:15 pace. At least I could survive at that rate. Much less effort, sustainable, stopped by traffic but could have kept going easily. Av pace 5:58. HR 166 bpm.
So it took all that relative violence to open up my system enough to race at.
And to think there are several runners who set off stone cold.
🙂
Interesting Phil. Is there a stat for average winning times?
Of course I jest, me turning up at a parkrun would be a result in itself, as it'd mean I'd done a few nice sessions and was confident of it being worth it. Perhaps next week will try and do a longer MP run, and then a cheeky light track session. Keep it progressing a bit.
Ric, i remember days I used to set off cold,or at best a very pathetic attempt at a warmup. I vividly remember how horrible that first mile always was.
I think I have 3 recorded Parkrun times quicker than Dean's PB.
Does that make me good enough to be a World Gold medallist? I think so and I'm taking it.
In my experience, if you go to a parkrun with very slow winning times, that will be the day that a 65 minute half marathoner turns up and runs 15 minutes on mud.
Or wearing long bottoms.
Here's one from the Woking Ten 1991.
The guy with number 1 on his vest (and wearing tracksters) ran 51 minutes that day.
🙂