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Moraghan Training - Stevie G
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16x 200s at that sort of pace sounds "strenuous" to me! Nice one
CC don't forget there is a large element of luck in getting the right conditions; no/little wind, low temp, right pace, feeling spot on beforehand etc. You've not had that luck lately so just enter a few more 10k's and it will all come right in one of them soon.
Great session again SG; you'll probably be faster than ever over 5k by the time you finish the schedule.
I'm entertaining the idea of entering a 10,000m race on 2 June. Guaranteed flat course, and out of all my races at that distance the one I did on the track is the one I paced the best / most consistently and smashed my target. Out of 4 sub 40 attempts in a couple of months, I got 40:04 on the road and 39:44 on the track. My races since have been way faster but on the more disappointing end of the scale, given where I could have been.
The major barrier to entering that race is the "inconvenience" of baby number 2 arriving on 23 May!! My wife is having to have a C section so can't do much. I'll play it by ear and if we're getting sleep etc. I might draft in some help for that evening so that I can toddle off to the track and smash out some 1:27 laps...
CC82, I reckon the road will be faster for you than the track. I don't know any regular runners who have a faster track time than road time. For the super elite guys the track may be faster but that is all about pace makers and pace setting. For a regular runner in a small field you are unlikely to hit that magic moment when all the stars line up and somebody sits into the race just in front of you and does all the work and you can take him on the last bit and PB. Much better find a big road 10k and just keep on trying as PeteM says.
SG, neat session. Is that on Little Marlow track looked over by Alex Miller?
I also did a track session: 5x1000m off 200m jog recovery. Did the same session 2 weeks ago just inside 4 minutes per rep, today was 3:49 per rep or 19:05 for the 5 efforts. All moving in the right direction: need to get it down to 3:45 (90 seconds or about 6 minute miling if we ignore the 9 metres and a bit) but 3:45 looks a lot more obtainable after 3:49 than it did at 3:59.
Yep, that's the one Phil.
Can get an £80 membership, that allows access between 6am and 9pm when not booked (which probably isn't too often I'd imagine)
Doing 2 sessions a week, the value would soon come back I reckon.
Just having a look at dates. My next "big" race is a 4 mile race in Central Park on Sunday 5th June, so just under 3 weeks away, and then a mile race in London 2 weeks after that.
Any good ideas for track sessions for this pair? My sessions are currently aimed at 5k so have done 12x400, 6x800 and 5x1000. I'll have a shoot at 8x600 on Thursday but then I don;t know if I shoudl go for lomger reps such as 4x1200 or 3x1600 with longer recoveries or shorter reps to get the leg speed up.
If only there were someone on this thread with a mile PB that gets onto the all time rankings!
Nice reps Phil. 200m equates to what - 60-90s?
If your km rep paces is getting where it should be try some mile reps 3x1mi/1mi jog recovery at 5k pace. Once that is bang on move to 3x2000m off 1km jog?
I've heard of that 1500m guy. Can't remember the name though.
8mi this morning (13km actually) at 5:54 pace (9:30 in old pence). Went off track and ended up in what appeared to be Borneo, but turned out to be a bit dense copse in Jennett's Park in Bracknell. One of those situations where I navigated using a high-rise office block and then found myself skirting its barbed wire fence in woodland.
LH achilles has calmed down since Copenhagen though there is an annoyance (not yet a niggle) at the insertion point. No issues first thing in the morning or during or after running; just knowing that it is there.
I don't see how the track would be slower. We're all used to pacing reps on a flat track and know how it feels. Compare that with a 10k race over variable terrain and the track can only be easier?
PMJ - thing is, I seem to enjoy the track a bit more than the road and this series of track races in Aberdeen this year seems to have grown massively in popularity. Quite a number of local runners around my sort of pace, so there probably would be someone to sit behind as I did in the last couple of races. Chances of it happening 10 days after our baby arrives are pretty slim in any case, we'll see...
Onto the track this morning to see if I can get the legs turning over...
My coach is away on holiday and I've nothing set for this week, so just made a session up for a bit of fun. 5x 400m pyramid session. I was going to try for 2 sets. Target 1:20 / 1:15 / "eyeballs out" / 1:15 / 1:20 off 400m jog and an 800m jog between sets.
I did one set and decided that was enough!
1:19.2 / 1:15.3 / 1:11.9 / 1:17.6 / 1:20.9
I use Strava as a social network type thing but it really is dogshit. It tells me I recorded my 3rd fastest 400m time of about 1:15 today, whereas I actually recorded my fastest ever 400m in sub 72. Makes me wonder what I could do on fresh legs as a one-off race effort for 400m. Certainly sub 70. McMillan actually suggests 62. I think I'd need some more speedwork to get to that sort of level!! I don't think I've even ran 31s for 200m before! (Well at school, I think I managed 27 or something. On grass, with no training. No idea if that shitty grass track was accurate!)
Strava is useless for short reps because it relies on GPS data, which will nearly always be several metres out at any one time. Not surprised you didn't do a second set!
Good work off 200m recovery Philip.
Iron - that scared me for a mo. Thought the 5:54 for 8M in Borneo was metric
Track for me today. Nice weather for it! I'll be a bit tight for time today and can't decide what session to do, to get maximum benefit for time. Maybe 3 or 4 x 1600m at 5k pace?
If there are a lot of runners and you get graded races then it does help: round here there are about 2 10,000m races a year.
We have the Bucks AA 10,000 champs on Wed Sep 21st on Bus' track. Last year there were 14 runners spread from 34 to 46 minutes. Results indicate a possible few groups of 2 or 3 runners. Seems all but one got PBs which shows how infrequent it is run.
The other is the VETERANS AC 10,000m champs and same story: 11 runners from 34 to 40 minutes
i think phil is saying road races will get 100s if not 1000s of entrants so there will always be someone to hitch a ride behind. on the track there might only be 30 in a 10000 so more likelihood of getting cut off in no mans land.
Mile training kind of depends where you are at the moment. no point doing killer speed stuff if you are not strong and wont hold it together on the 3rd lap. i would say 600m reps would be a good guide but they have to be run fast. maybe 4 reps.
Or possible 2*800 off big recovery but at near race pace
Or a 1k time trail at race pace...loooong recovery then 1* 400m & 1*200m
if you feel strong then its pace you are after so 2*600, 2*300, 2*150 long recoveries between sets maybe 5 to 8 mins but you have to be flat out.
Is that for me or Philip Dean? I like the sound of 2 x 800s or 4 x 600s fast, as they are low volume, but feel it's my speed endurance that's lacking currently. What pace would you say for the 600s? Idea of miles was low recovery time, so can be squeezed in a lunch break, but still get volume.....
ta!
That was a long read through, Ihad to start skimming in the end.
Good to see your come back, Scott.
Nice 10k PB's CC & Pete.
Good PR win Bus.
Something fast from SC (I must have skimmed across that one too quickly)
Definitely covering themselves SG, you'll be fine for that Parkrun homecoming party/street carnival.
Not much running from me. 7 miles yesterday at 6am and I think I did a 5 miler last week. I've had another cough and running just feels like hard work.
I am trying to just get in some swimming and cycling. I have the Slateman triathlon in Llanberis this weekend. 1k swim, 50k bike and 11k run up the slate quarry.
Did the same race last year and beat a few of the elites on the run section including a previous winner just a week after the MK marathon. No way I could have done that after London this year.
I am getting the itch to do some run sessions now and look to have another crack at the sub 17 parkrun before age puts it out of reach.
hi bus, was for PMJ. as i think he said he had a mile race on the horizon.
the sessions are good as the actual running time is low but the recovery is high. for example i would look to do them at near 1500 race pace but have 8mins recovery between them. but you would need a good warm up too.
If i have short time i might do cruise intervals on the track. my tempo pace but take 1min rec every mile. mentally ok and doesnt need a big warm up or recovery time. 4*1mile.
When I was club team manager I used to occasionally oversee the training of two guys when the coach wasn't available (1:45 and 1.47 for 800; 3:34 for the first for 1500 gives an idea of the quality!). Two key icing on the cake type sessions were
a) 500 then 300 with 15 seconds pause x 2, with 7 minutes recovery (leading up to an 800 race)
b) 700 then 500 with 30 seconds pause x 2, again with 7 minutes recovery (for 1500/mile).
All at around race pace, and b was sometimes quicker. Two-three mile warm up plus strides.
Interested to see Dean's thoughts!
Those sessions sound brutal but fun
I definitely think I fancy being a 1500m runner if that's the sort of session involved...
Another 30 minutes at lunchtime for me around the 7:40/mile sort of mark. Bloody raining again.
OK - thanks Dean, thought so
Sounds like a fun event in Llanberis AG - good luck!
Just back, and luckily my meeting was cancelled - good job as I was ages!
Went for a pyramid session, all at 5k pace with recoveries half the intervals, but turned into what I'll call a ziggurat session
After the first 400, I stopped the watch for the rec, but forgot to restart it before pressing the lap, so after 200m of the 800m, time read "0:00" - doh! So, rather than 200,400,800,1600 and back I changed it to:
200,400,200,600,200,800,200,1000,200,800,200, 600,200,400, 200 with recoveries half the time of the rep - or NAD! I'll need to look at the upload later for exact times, but all were at least 1-2sec per lap under the 86s target, with the 200s averaging 40s, and not much noticeable reduction in pace through the session even though it was windy at times. Pretty pleased with that overall.....
alehouse. one of our group is at loughborough uni and David Gandy has him doing your type of sessions. i think they are very good sessions. we are going to try them this yr but i think they might be the type of session to do towards the end of your training cycle. a way of seeing if you are in shape....rather than the type of sessions to get you in shape in the first place
CC82. there is no feeling to quite like a last 60m in an 800 race or the 3rd lap of a 1500m. you learn all sort of new swear words. I assume they are the sort of swear words that common around mile 22 at a marathon.
Middle distance training is much more enjoyable than other events.
Bus- nice session. those 200s would be interesting. you probably need to blast them (into the 3x's for you, so they feel a different pace to the other reps) to get something out of them rather than them being extended recovery. but mentally knowing there was a lot of reps would be tempting to go a little easy off them.
Good tips from the boys who will know, Dean, Aley etc. For any lurkers who might have missed Aley's pedigree in days gone by, ahead of anyone on here for 5k/10k if I remember correctly...
Interesting to see some pyramid talk. Probably only did a couple of those in about 6 years! Dean's spot on about the 200s though. 400s at 5k pace can be hard to keep slow enough, so 200s certainly would be.
The beauty of the track is that it doesn't even feel like you're going that fast at times, and yet the rep comes out seemingly comfortably quicker than what similar effort on the pavements and roads would.
Mentioned before i need to ease the miles a bit if i'm upping the intensity of reps, so a moderate reduction from 10 to 8 for my medium long today.
At one point I was going up a very steep hill, at 8min miling or so thinking, this is tough, i'm rubbish, maybe i am finished. Then it went to the flat again, and all a bit more normal again.
That's the problem at the mo, i'm overthinking every little feel of stuff. Olds are having ECGs on Friday, so will enjoy lashing 10x200 off in the morning, and then next week see what is what.
Thanks Dean, 4x600 it is then. I was straying that way already: today was supposed to be a recovery day between Tue and Thu track sessions but I play a silly game on fetch picking up markers by running and loading a GPS track and a 1,000,000 point marker appeared on the south end of Regent's Park (and I normally pick up about a million points a month so it is a big deal) so it was best part of 9 miles in torrential rain and I wasn't doing that at easy pace. Tomorrow was to be 8x600 but 4x600 looks better from here.
Looking at Strava, my PB on the local gooseshit track is 84 seconds so have to aim to beat that by some margin.
As I understand it, the thing with the pyramid SG is that whilst the pace for a 200 should seem slow, the recovery is very short - especially for my version today, with a 20 sec rec before the next rep. I think I've only ever done one or two pyramid sessions before, but I must admit, I kind of enjoyed today, both for the variety, but particularly the fact that the distance builds and it all starts to get hard but then as fatigue starts to creep in, the rep distance starts to get shorter but you still need to focus to maintain form and pace.
Do points make prizes Philip?
philip, make sure you do them fast and take lots of recovery
Yes, Dean, the sessions I mentioned are specifically for the last three weeks to ten days prior to a key race, and PMJ isn't that far away from that! I think sticking to some quick 600s may be more appropriate! Think Norman Poole still uses similar sessions.
SG: you are too kind. My best 5k was 14:48 which for my club was pretty average. Had to resort to the steeplechase (9:23) to get a spot in the B team! When I set my 5000 PB I was very nearly lapped.
Forecast for tomorrow lunch is 15 degrees and light cloud so that is fine. I can't do long recoveries in the cold and wet.
young lad at my club ran his debut 5000 on the track on saturday. 14.12 !!! says he paced it poorly and felt too comfortable in the middle so expects to go sub 14 next time out. And i believe him!
That's phenomenal Dean - what a talent!
Just looked on Garmin - seems I missed one of the 200m reps between the first 800m and the 1000m. Bugger - hey, ho not really surprising!
Aley, if you will be training with a ridiculous team, that's your own fault!
That kid sounds like a right one to watch though. Wonder how he stacks up against the top talents at the same age, and how "easy" he can trim that extra min off or so!
After 3 weeks, finally got the 2nd session of the work run club going. Very nice little session. A few drills, and progressive warm up stuff, disguised in fun little setups, then some paarlauf (which I again forgot you need to start at the same place not diagonals in a rectangle, or otherwise by leg 2 there's no one to swap with!)
A fun but intense little bit from Marlow days, where you line a grid up, with in this case 4 people at equal distances apart, and one "focus". The focus is basically put under pressure by each of the 4 runners who are only doing their 1 leg, meaning ideally they are really pushed round the grid, but not monstered. Then you change the focus so everyone gets ago.
I couldn't resist a go, but obviously just did enough.
Then ended with a little time trial, round the 0.18miless of the rugby pitch. Which in hindsight was a stupid distance, and should have at least made it 0.2miles! Then some stretching.
Good fun. A potential avenue if I ever do get any instruction stronger than a flimsy "small risk" and "you may" want to ease down the strenuous stuff.
I intend to go sub 14 at my next 5,000m too.
I don't believe me.
Jesus - 14:12.
12.5x 1.08 per 400m. I reckon that would be about my absolute flat out 400m pace right now.
According to PO10, Mo Farah's debut 5000m was 14:22 (as an U20 athlete).
For some reason I can't post on here from my phone so I'm buggered as I'm away every week. I can log in but as soon as I go to reply it kicks me back out???
Them short sessions look brutal to me. Probably because I don't think I possess any 800/1500m speed/paces. If I duck under 70 for 400 I'm doing well!
I'm due to be in SC's race at the Highgate 10000m on sat but looking like a DNS. Raced on Sunday at the Calderdale way relay which is a pairs event over 50odd miles in Yorkshire. Mostly fell terrain with a bit of road and we was on the first leg at 10.8 miles. I asked the team manager to pair me with a lad who has really improved over the last year as I wanted a hard run and to win the leg.
He gave me a right kicking which meant we won the leg finishing just over 30 secs in front of 2nd. Pleased as the other were pretty handy, one being a junior fell champ and 8.35 3000 recently and the other is always In the mix at fell races.
Ripped my feet to bits as I wore some brand new trainers as my others were in pieces. Not been able to walk properly, nevermind run. Wounds are still seeping at the min as those on FB will have seen. A right arse of a trip today as I left Cambridge at 5am, drove the 200 miles home and now about to set off to london as I'm at the brother in laws til Sunday. Think I have to withdraw if I can't run so will leave it til tomorrow to decide but will most likely still head over to watch if the forecast picks up.
and to think I took advice on marathon shoe selection from you, Matt!
Nicely done though, hope it was worth it.
I think I am going to do a mini track session in a minute, low volume and 200s and 400s, Nothing fast as I am still nursing this calf back to health.