Moraghan Training - Stevie G

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  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭
    The guys following are taking some pretty risky moves!They must have faith in his faith!
  • Bus- Rumours of us Coombes gang tackling Wycombe Rye parkrun en route to Pompey on Saturday. Bit muddy?
  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭

    It was last week - about a third of it is on grass (football pitches), which was fairly waterlogged. there are also a couple of short sections under trees that are quite muddy.  I coped in road shoes, but plenty were wearing trail shoes. Might dry out slightly by next Saturday.



  • OK cheers. We are staying at my mates place in Southsea before the Chichester 10k Sunday. The missus is still trying to do 40 different ones before her 40th in March, starting to run out of close ones!
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    Dean - nicely seeing off the blaggers there, and not letting them into your head.
    I remember completely de-motivating myself a few rounds into a Schools Chess (!) tournament in my much younger days, having foolishly asked my rivals who had represented the county (all of them!) in a later round!

    Simon, i thought you'd gone at least 6 days without a race, so was pleased to see you hadn't neglected your racing ;) Sounds a decent turnout.

    Bus...just scroll back a page or 2, plenty from Phil on this relay. I must point out again that it is 4 months away though! If you're in the habit of signing up to stuff that far out! I dare say the chaps are inviting a lot of late amends with such a specific age element :)
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2018
    Went and did one of the classic Moraghan big pre half marathon sessions today, the 3x2m HMP off 90secs job.

    Woke up to adrenaline, which is always a sign it's going to be a workout! Especially since I hadn't done a morning track session in ages, having recently favoured the Datchet sessions, or been working around races.

    Very cold indeed, but warm up 3miler done, and I went for the single skin layer and gloves. Said hello to the Football Conference (1 tier below Wycombe) player who runs a boot camp, and congratulated him on his 2 goal salvo at the weekend, and it was time to stop messing about and get going!

    Didn't muck about with strides today, felt too cold to get much benefit, and wouldn't be touching the top paces, so just 1 lap of the track to make sure it wasn't slippy - it wasn't.

    Therefore, 8 laps, plus about 4secs worth, to make the full 2miles.
    Splits starting as the below. Near the end of set 2, i managed not to take 400splits in 2 places due to frozen hands, so took 800s instead.


    1. 1.24,1.27,1.26,1.28,1.27,1.28,1.28,1.25 
    2. 1.24,1.26,1.26,1.27, 2.53,2.51
    3. 1.22,1.25,1.24,1.25,1.26,1.26,1.25,1.25,1.24


    I've added up the precise decimals on the splits for purpose of working out averages (will spare those), so average laps for the 3 sets, as below
    1. 1.27.10     - 5.50 pace
    2. 1.26.28     - 5.47 pace
    3. 1.25.20  (if we take that extra 9th lap!)  - 5.42 pace

    Pleased to see the average pace ramp up, and the target had been around 1.26-1.27, which would be a 5.45-5.50 zone. And ending faster than that, even with a 9th lap, before my stomach absolute destroyed itself - though politely waiting until i'd finished today!

    Hungry now, that's a fairly big one pre work, 9.5miles all in.
  • WoolWool ✭✭✭

    It's a fine line between taking all advantages you can and cheating. I'm prepared to be called a cheat on here though as for every one saying that the shoes are cheating there are 2 saying that shoes could never make that much difference!

    Nice session SG. If you had to run 5 - 6 miles continuously instead of breaking up the session with the rests where do you think it would come out?

    Simon, can I ask you a serious question about your training? I've read this forum on and off for years (mainly to quote the daft things SG / PMJ say back to them in different fora!) and always thought that you were one of those seriously annoying people that ran a couple of sessions a week, then raced and won at the weekend. Recently though, I've read a bit more of your commute mileage etc and I'm starting to get the impression that you do lay down quite a bit of base mileage as well. I know it's more exciting to talk about sessions but what does the rest of your week look like in general?



  • Bus- Rumours of us Coombes gang tackling Wycombe Rye parkrun en route to Pompey on Saturday. Bit muddy?
    What about Black Park parkrun? First Saturday of the month is the pacing crew so lots of people running with flags. Pretty much on the route as well, down the M1, around the M25 to junction 16, parkrun and back on at junction 15. Then your choice of A3 or M3. Have to be prepared for the £2.70 carpark fee.
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2018
    Wool , stand by all the comments on things like Strava, arm warmers, snoods, shades and people who race/do sessions repeatedly day in day out etc.

    ;)

    In a more serious response, i've done many a 6mile segment at MP (theoretical - as debated many a time!), at 600 or just under, so probably on a track at around 5.50-5.55 for sure.


    In terms of Wokingham, who knows. I "should" be able to work at 6.00 or under,  but i will go off "as it feels", and see how things progress and who is in and around me. 

    ps you're right to recognise Simon and others' huge training, as they are much more concise posters than me, so don't see the need to labour over the everyday filler.

    ps Phil, i'm guessing the pacing doesn't go down to even Simon's "tempo" pace :)
  • Ah now I've had a look at the site and with the fact that we are travelling afterwards, BP looks a better option than WR. Possibly meet up with our mate Boucher again (he's getting back into it now, beat me easily on Saturday). I'll be going round with Ollie (my 7 yr old), he's down to 32 mins now, so he should run well.

    Wool - ignore my pithy remark about the shoes LOL...coming from the man who virtually had 3 cans of red bull around Berlin in the form of Caffeinated cols gels ;), good to push the boundaries!

    Training wise...my 14 mile (in total) long commute is usually on a Monday and a Weds. Tuesdays & Thursdays I will just run to work in the morning and either go to Luton on one of the days for training, or do a session around here (near St Pancras station) on the other. Like last week, I'm going to the track Thursday, so i'll sneak out at 4.45 and do a 35 minute tempo or 1,2,3,4,5,4,3,2,1 mins with 1 minute recovery. Friday will either be just the short run commute, or the 14 miler again, depending on what races there are at the weekend. So then a race on Saturday and a 15 miler (at least 13 anyway) on the Sunday. I aim for 60 miles and at least two hard sessions a week..or one session and one race.

    Summer is different with masters track for Herne Hill and Bedford in two different leagues, so I train less. Busy time of year, as I have Chichester 10k Sunday, then Surrey lge xc, then the MK winter half, then the national xc, then possibly indoor track, then the intercounties on 11/3. No rest for the wicked!

  • WoolWool ✭✭✭

    thanks SG, digs will come at the 'correct' moment, don't worry!

    So, I think from what you are saying you think you'd expect to run a faster pace over a HM than you would over a 6 mile tempo run. Right? Interesting. I think the psychological effect of the breaks in the session you did make it just so much easier to handle than a continuous session. So if you think it can still be a good indicator of HMP then it's something I perhaps should think about.

    No doubt you'll be operating well under 6 min pace come Wokee. At least the 1st 10 miles (until you get to the uphill section of this super-flat event!) but all of it if you pace it well.

    I've never run Wycombe parkrun, mainly because I've run the TVAC 5k at the same venue and never felt the need to drive past Black Park to get there on a Saturday morning. I've run lots of parkruns and in all honesty I'm not sure that I've really run a nicer one all-in. Defo recommend.

  • Stevie G said:
    ps Phil, i'm guessing the pacing doesn't go down to even Simon's "tempo" pace :)
    We have had pacers as fast as 18 minutes but not aimed at Simon for sure.

    Have to agree with Wool, Black Park is by far one of the prettiest parkruns out there. 

    Boucher really unlikely to be there, I see him once a year on NYD.
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2018
    The Moz training was big on running at race pace in training. Only say 200s and 400s were hard to keep slow enough, the rest was easy! Compare that to now, and i rampage the 400s a lot more.

    Terminology is essential to understand when looking at someone's training plan though. I've seen people use "tempo" to barely mean what I would count steady , and the opposite, using "steady" to mean an easy paced run. Similarly, the age old Marathon pace being a theoretical zone based on half marathon, rather than what you'd necessarily actually achieve... although with the right training, in theory the two could align...
    But until that, say i did a 6.45 marathon, very respectable, comfortably under 3, but would 6miles at 6.45 then be any sort of quality workout? No!

    A standard build up, pretty much for all my pbs in the Moz era, was building mileage, then adding steady runs (distinct zone from easy, [around 6.30 to my easy 7s), then a real block of 6-7miles at MP (6-6.10 top end), then starting to merge HMP in, so the MP feels like the recovery (!), and finally splitting into 3x2m or 2x3m. It might even climb a zone called "tempo" (again, a distinct zone - the 10mile race pace zone, perhaps 5.40 compared to the 5.45-5.50 HMP. I remember feeling absolutely top form when i smashed a 2x3miles session at "tempo" and it was on the road too! I was flying in late 2012/early 2013 when smashing that session!

    So to answer your question, yes i'd feel confident (in usual situations, ie not when i'm trying to mentally unleash the last disastrous half off my mind - remember this if i don't average under 6 at Wokingham!) of going quicker over a half marathon than the Theoretical MP 6 mile tempo, as it's simply a slower zone than what you train at for HM.

    Those 6mile MP efforts were just that, working medium hard but not trying to push it. Even though i did loads of them, these sort of runs are always the ones i'm most adrenalined up the day before, but i suppose i've always preferred to do faster paces with recoveries. 

    ps Wycombe parkrun is ok. I wouldn't especially make a trip for it, unless you're a tick off merchant, or happened to be in and around this area.
    But then I wouldn't go out of my way for Black Park either
  • WoolWool ✭✭✭

    Simon - thanks, the structure of your week just goes to show how wrong I was with my assumptions. 60 mpw, 2 sessions + some underlying talent is going to reap benefits over a sustained period.

    Thanks also SG. Yes, we've got very different definitions of pace zones so when you translate my question to your zones it would read: 'would you expect to run a HM at a faster pace than you'd run in a 6 mile marathon pace session?'. Well of course when there's always going to be a natural 15-30s spread between MP & HMP!!

    I've got some good info from that exchange even if it appears confused, sorry. I would love to see you train for a marathon though and then ask your opinion of how easy 6 MP miles might be at the end of an 18-20 miler in the middle of a full training campaign. There are many good marathoners who can barely touch their MP in training!!

    On BP - perhaps you are gauging it on how fast the course is? Single lap parkruns are a pretty rare thing, got to be happy to have one like BP on the doorstep!

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2018
    Oh of course Wool, but that's an entirely different run then isn't it with either 18-20miles banked, or finishing that length of run i'm sure you'll agree. I was talking a stand alone 6miler. Marathoners are different gravy to the likes of me. Loving the long run must be a key component!

    When you say there are many good marathoners who don't touch their MP in training, are you meaning through chosen training method rather than it being too hard? Or are you meaning very long MP runs, say 10-12miles?

    I trained Lit, who as a lady did a 2hr 52 marathon. She regularly achieved MP for 6-8mile sections.
    And i'm regularly able to do 6mile MP runs at 6.00 dead, and i'm no 2.38 (ish? marathoner), so i'd be amazed if anyone that pace couldn't.

    ps I'm probably irritated with BP as people say it's really fast, yet i find it anything but!
  • WoolWool ✭✭✭
    I was thinking of Race Jase as an obvious example. I suppose when you get to that pace you really do have to be at peak fitness to attain the pace at all. 

    I don't think BP is fast. Not sure any 9am races on a Saturday are fast though after a week at work and pizza and beer on a Friday night....
  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭
    Just a quick drop in. 
    Well done to all racers over the weekend. I've read all the posts so nothing missed.

    SG, I used to find BP fast but that was when there was a different start - a start that for the first 1km was predominately flat to downhill. Now it starts with a very gradual drag of 600m to the same finish point. 
    Never understood how that appeared not to affect some runners at all.

    You'll find videos showing marathon runners practising their race pace the day before the London marathon. Bekele and co. I imagine that's just to get some idea of how to balance their efforts.

    Crikey, don't they shift.

    Almost as fast as Dean  :)

    🙂

  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭
    I don't remember BP as fast either - flat, but the surface is a bit gravelly and loose. Faster than the Rye though...

    SG - I remember you telling me that 3 x 2M session was a pretty good indicator of HM pace a few weeks out which puts you on for a 1:16:26 then:-)

    Missed my lunch run again. Evening instead, with my back and hip pretty sore and stiff I started really slowly. I was supposed to do a tempo but that was never going to work tonight, so just did easy with 6 x 200 paces thrown in toward the end at around 5:45 ish pace, just to try and get some speed into the legs.

    Remind me about that relay in a couple of months then :smile:

  • PeteMPeteM ✭✭✭
    I think how fast a parkrun is depends most on the surface. Tarmac quickest then gravel/hard packed mud then grass (unless short and dry) then off road/xc type. Most are flat with few turns and most are laps so you lose/gain a few seconds if those factors don't apply. That's why rhe stat about 'hardest' based on elevation was useless in isolation. Courses like Bracknell are very slow despite little real elevation but ones like the Northen Irish one I did, Richmond and even Dean's local at Hanley can be quite quick despite being hilly. Only done BP once but from distant memory it was an average type terrain so average type times. Agree with Phil and Wool it was quite picturesque; paying to park for half an hour or so a bit of a negative though eh Bus! Sorry if all this is a bit simplistic. 

    Good session BTW SG and I reckon it suggests 1'16 or so is on, but agree with your approach of running this one to feel and being relatively ok with any 1'1x for now. 10 days before a race for which I have a time targeted I like to do half the distance at the required race pace. Works for me and gives me confidence but don't know if the experts on here feel its generally a good idea or not (obviously wouldn't be if a really long race like a marathon was the target!). 
  • SG, that's a really strong session, especially given the conditions and an extra lap! It definitely works as a confidence booster for Wokingham. I get the terminology thing, a little part of me dies inside when people describe easy runs as steady :)

    Pete, I ascribe to something like that (well, I did, when I was fitter) - a few weeks out from a HM would do 13.1km at race pace, 10k for a 10mi etc. Although, this wasn't always a straight tempo - maybe split into a few reps or portions just under race pace, at race pace then faster.

    I hope your hip and back is okay Bus!

    Good to read the weekend's racing - SC, I look forward to seeing how Chichester goes for you!


    Legs took a few days to recover from Saturday's antics. DOMS in muscles I haven't had for a long time, probably due to the stability aspect.
    7.5mi easy today, came in at 7:42/mi for 75.7%HR. Feeling good, so time to start thinking about getting some sessions in soon. Thinking of something along the lines of 6 x 5mins (2mins) on Thursday, semi-relaxed as a gentle easing back in.
    I've decided to abort the 10k race this weekend, it offers no real purpose and would prevent another long run and delay getting back to sessions.
  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭
    Sensible choice Mr H - quads feeling it? Thanks, and me too BTW ;-).

    Pete - what would you know about parkruns then - barely do any :wink:

    I agree about the cost of parking at Black Park mind - bleedin' liberty and should be free for parkrunners! There are some places to park on the edge of the park fro free, but not quite the same.

  • ML84ML84 ✭✭✭
    Whoah!!!!!! Handbrake chaps. Lets not be feeding SG with soft targets of just dipping under 1.20. 
    That's a cracking session SG and progressing nicely. Add into it that you're doing it early morning in a training week then I can't for the life in me see why you'd settle for a sub 1.20 or that Bus and Pete think you should. 
    It shouldn't bother me but I really think you'll sell yourself short by 'feeling' your way in. Get the fucker smashed like the form you're in suggests. You will run sub 1.15 without a shadow of a doubt if the weathers decent IMO.

    I had a 45 minute tempo to do but had a physio app to sort out my heavy, clunky legs so had to go on the treadmill as opposed to the track (no time to drive there and back). Did the same session outdoors on NYears day and covered 8 miles and opted for the same today. Felt much harder this evening as my legs were dull. Not surprising given the recent mileage. 
    Probably have a few easier days now as I'm an usher at a wedding on Friday which means I'm out for a few pints on Thursday, all day drinking on Friday then my missus is off to watch football on Sat. 
  • ML84ML84 ✭✭✭
    I averaged 5.26 per mile in my last half. I couldn't run 4 miles in one hit at that pace in training. 
    Id be chuffed to bits if I ran 3 x 2 miles and got anywhere near them paces. 
  • ioweriower ✭✭✭
    Impressive mileage and runs Matt!
    Nice track race Dean - decent time in the end after that and makes me laugh catching people out giving it the biggun before - not many valid excuses on an indoor track. 
    Tidy HMP sesh Stevie! 

    F OFF last week then parkrun/gym combo again. Same tussle with my new nemesis - tried to make more of it this week - another runner buggered off to leave me leading a line of three or four on the way out. Then settled into third on the way back with a few place swaps. Got overtaken by a club mate at about 4.5km and tried to follow him but struggled in the headwind. Eventually pipped at the line in a reverse of last week but finished on the same time again! 19:05 after 18:50 last week

    Same sort of gym session after but legs felt much more up for it. Less doms in the days after too - easy 8 Sunday then a forced day off yesterday as I’ve been doing a powerboat course for work. 

    Track session tonight - 8x800m at 5k pace, short rests of 30 seconds too which meant pacing was critical. Unfortunately the weather had different ideas and it was bloody miserable out - non stop driving rain! Kept the reps within a few seconds and held 2:52’s average. Legs felt good, would like to get a fast 5k in to back this up - local parkrun course certainly ain’t that!
  • ioweriower ✭✭✭
    Forgot to add - I’d have that priest easy, bring me your finest shopper, heavier the better!
  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭
    edited January 2018
    Shopper or chopper? Big wait advantage for a chopper, but cornering is a bastard! Nice sesh btw.

    Whoa yourself Mr L! I put SG down for 1:16:36 :-)

  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭
    MH, Many steady runs are described as easy when technically speaking they are in fact threshold.
     
    The H.Rate training you employ is a reasonable control to not over doing things. My research showed how having tired leg muscles affects the rate without feeling any different elsewhere. Odds on most will assume the rate is increased when tired anywhere, when in fact it is the opposite.
    You have to be pretty fresh all round to run with a high HR for any perceived effort.

    ML, I feel there's a point where getting too close to race speed for sustained periods actually works against progress.
    I should add that when totally unfit, that region is shady.

    🙂

  • Cheers MH -Will see how Sunday goes, hoping not too windy. I'm going for a 1.16.xx for SG too I think.

    The boy is ill, so I think we'll probably just be watching the missus at Black Park. Looking forward to seeing the course. For me Poole is still up there, as it's tarmac and flat as a pancake and lovely scenery. With Upton and Blandford recently opened though it might make it less congested too.

    Bedford is fast, as it's identical to the Doug Anderson 5k course. Any PR on an established race course is good.

  • The Bus said:
    I agree about the cost of parking at Black Park mind - bleedin' liberty and should be free for parkrunners! There are some places to park on the edge of the park fro free, but not quite the same.

    I think Black Park is a good example of the not widely publicized commercial underbelly of parkrun. If you look at any large and established parkrun it will have about 500 runners turn out once a week and that will cause certain costs to be incurred by the park. To deliver parkrun for free there has to be no visible entry fee so you have to resolve costs with no income. Car parking is one easy way to do so. Black Park is typically £3.70 for 2 hours parking but if you get there before 9am it is £2.70 (so parkrun is a £1 cheaper) and if you run there regularly you can get an annual pass for £50 which covers other local parks as well. 

    Same applies at Wycombe Rye as well, there is a paid carpark and that gets 100% filled up and I assume the monies somehow go to the upkeep of the park but knowing how the local council works it is probably not so obvious.
  • PeteMPeteM ✭✭✭
    I agree Philip but BP and Wycombe Rye are still very much in the minority in charging for parking. The only other reasonably local course I know that does is Fulham Palace and that's actually street parking charges (also Reading when its at Dinton as now, but not normally). Think more may have to start though as up to 500 runners each week at the likes of Bracknell, Maidenhead, Woodley etc. must put a strain on what council parks budgets can stand.  
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